Arkane Dishonored 2 - Emily and Corvo's Serkonan Vacation

[Crooked Bee]

Iirc they did have to dumb down the AI in Dishonored 1 based on focus group feedback, so. I just hope they don't have to dumb it down too much this time.

 

[Ash]

Iirc they did have to dumb down the AI in Dishonored 1 based on focus group feedback, so. I just hope they don't have to dumb it down too much this time.

Fed bullshit. Dishonored had four difficulty modes, and it's not difficult nor risky to make some of those AI behaviors exclusive to the highest one/s. Unless those behaviors were just flat out unfair/poorly implemented of course, in which case they probably should have been dumbed down.

 

[Infinitron]

IIRC the dumbing down was in the addition of signposting because people would refuse to go places without being told "HEY YOU CAN DO THIS"

 

[Crooked Bee]

Yeah, you're right, it wasn't about the AI: http://www.lazygamer.net/gaming-news/playstation/ps3/without-clues-dishonored-was-too-difficult/

In playtesting, Arkane found that people just weren’t all that able to go about finishing the mission using their own heads. Without at least some sort of clue, people would just wander about aimlessly, hoping for the mission to complete itself.

“People would just walk around. They didn’t know what to do. They didn’t even go upstairs because a guard told them they couldn’t. They’d say ‘Okay, I can’t go upstairs.’ They wouldn’t do anything,” explained Arkane’s Julien Roby to Games.On.net

 

[Increasing]

"Why Harvey Smith Refuses To 'Dumb Down' Dishonored 2"

But Dishonored 1 was already dumb...or are we going all-in this time? I'd jump with joy if that were the case, and yeah, you don't need to dumb down your game when you have the Bethesda/Zenimax marketing powerhouse and company image (popular among the popamolers) backing you.

Dumb compared to what? Dishonored was a far cry from usual AAA fare back when it first appeared.

Actual "dumbing down" elements were relegated to stuff like objective arrows and UI elements that could all be turned off if one so desired. Also, if one felt like powers made the game too easy, all of them could be happily ignored with the exception of blink which was sometimes necessary for traversal.
They went so far with encouraging the latter that they even included a related achievement: http://dishonored.wikia.com/wiki/Mostly_Flesh_and_Steel

 

[LESS T_T]

THI4F devs said that their AI was too realistic so they had to *balance* it.

 

[Wirdschowerdn]

Don't get it why people keep saying Dishonored is dumbed down.



You can do so many crazy power and gamestyle compositions it hardly ever gets old. Neither Thief, nor Dishonored are dumbed down. Both are different and encourage creativity.

 

[Ash]

Dumb compared to what?

Every single game not from the popamole age? Or to narrow it down, older Immersive Sims such as Arcane's own Arx Fatalis or Harvey's Deus Ex? Sure Dishonored wasn't nowhere near the heaps upon heaps of garbage we have been getting for the past 10 or so years, but that doesn't mean it was up to the expected standards.

 

[Excidium II]

Don't get it why people keep saying Dishonored is dumbed down.



You can do so many crazy power and gamestyle compositions it hardly ever gets old. Neither Thief, nor Dishonored are dumbed down. Both are different and encourage creativity.

Because the entire challenge of stealth games is crossing guarded areas without being seen, which is trivial in dishonored. And if you're spotted you can go on a killstreak through the entire map anyway.

 

[Excidium II]

Actual "dumbing down" elements were relegated to stuff like objective arrows and UI elements that could all be turned off if one so desired.

After they patched it of course.

Because when the game came out there was an objective you couldn't complete without quest marker. You had to dump an unconscious guy on a very specific spot, that wasn't specified anywhere.

 

[Wirdschowerdn]

Because the entire challenge of stealth games is crossing guarded areas without being seen, which is trivial in dishonored. And if you're spotted you can go on a killstreak through the entire map anyway.

Which is exactly what the developers intented to do with the game from the onset.

 

[Excidium II]

Which is why it's not a very good stealth game to begin with, since there's no reason to be stealthy besides wanting to see a good ending. Everything that's fun and spices the gameplay requires playing it like an action game.

 

[Increasing]

Which is why it's not a very good stealth game to begin with, since there's no reason to be stealthy besides wanting to see a good ending.

Because it isn't a purely stealth game to begin with. Why is that so hard to grasp? Dishonored's flexibility is its biggest strength.

 

[Ivan]

Mark of the Ninja is also among my fav "stealth" games that allows for stealthy massacres.

 

[Ash]

"Neither Thief, nor Dishonored are dumbed down. Both are different and encourage creativity."

Thief was dumbed down by developer's own admission. It was "narrower in focus in an attempt to fund Ultima Underworld 3".
That doesn't mean it is not good, nor that Dishonored isn't, but they are quite literally half the games they used to put out and were designed to reach a wider audience. And lets not forget Thief was a first person medieval bow shooter until the last 6 months of development. Check out the Ultima Underworld 1 & 2 discussion thread here on the Codex to see how obsessively attentive to detail they can be in gameplay systems, then ask where's it all gone in Thief?
Perhaps "dumbed down" is the wrong term to use for Thief. Just because it is less complicated or deep it doesn't mean it is dumb. Dishonored I would call dumbed down in some respects because of things like all the handholding enabled by default, the regenerating blink/slow time powers, resources handed out aplenty, the general lack of effort in challenge across the board in puzzles/combat/stealth and so on.

Because the entire challenge of stealth games is crossing guarded areas without being seen, which is trivial in dishonored. And if you're spotted you can go on a killstreak through the entire map anyway.

Dishonored wasn't a stealth game. It was a stealth/action hybrid, and neither is mandatory. Still, I certainly don't disagree with the triviality of the challenge, everything was too easy.

 

[Excidium II]

I guess it's not a shitty stealth game then. It's more like an action game that you can crouch and lean to be invisible.

 

[Wirdschowerdn]

You can even stealth your way through sections in the new Wolfenstein. And guess what? As rudimentary as it is, it's still fun. The stew of the game though still remains in it's relentless FPS action. Neither gameplay styles cancel each other out, rather it shows that in the hands of skillful designers, it can enrich a what used to be a "purist" genre. That's just how the brain works. To make the action feel more visceral, you also need some calm breaks in between to avoid the shooting getting numb.

Thief had it's place in it's time but no self-respected game designer would want to go back to a purist stealth game with today's technical freedoms at his disposal. That's what we have FMs for.

 

[Excidium II]

What a load of crockshit. Did you copy that from RPS or Gamasutra?

Thief had it's place in it's time but no self-respected game designer would want to go back to a purist stealth game with today's technical freedoms at his disposal. That's what we have FMs for.

Is that what you actually believe? More like proper stealth gameplay simply does not sell. It's slow, punishing and boring to watch.

Technical freedom my fucking ass...if they were all about technology we'd see stealth gameplay that isn't stuck in the mid 90s crouch-in-a-dark-corner at best. It's probably the most stagnated element in video games.

 

[Wirdschowerdn]

Is that what you actually believe? More like proper stealth gamepaly simply does not sell. It's slow, punishing and boring to watch.

Exactly. Not to mention boring to play. Well, except Thief1/2, those just were the only two good "pure" stealth games ever released. Outliers, crafted by these brilliant Looking Glass folks that nobody ever can reproduce again.

And now back to today.

 

[Wirdschowerdn]

Technical freedom my fucking ass...if they were all about technology we'd see stealth gameplay that isn't stuck in the mid 90s crouch-in-a-dark-corner at best. It's probably the most stagnated element in video games.

So how would you envision stealth gameplay with today's possibilities then?

 

[Excidium II]

At the very least, something that gives a passing impression of being AI.

 

[Metro]

So stealth wasn't that shitty... assuming you don't use the basic ability given to you at level 1? So... cutting the Codex bullshit: the stealth was shitty.

I kinda look at it like quick save scumming. It can turn good games into shit. You get it at level 1. Only person to blame if you use it, is yourself.

That you have to intentionally handicap yourself in a game from an ability you get nearly instantly means the game is poorly designed. Dark Souls is a game that you can make more challenging with player-enforced restrictions like level 1 run, etc. But the base game itself is still challenging (to new players) without any player-enforced restrictions.

 

[Excidium II]

Blink makes stealth trivial but also makes traversing maps more fun. The game is easy regardless, so you might as well use it.

There's ways they could rebalance it but it seems they kept the exact same ability for the sequel. The chick's traversal ability is what blink should have been.

 

[Wirdschowerdn]

At the very least, something that gives a passing impression of being AI.

Then stealth would be impossible. Thief's strenght wasn't it's AI, it was just a combination of routines ("AI") and level design. Realitic non-deterministic AI? Might just as well go play some real life game called bank robbery. Anything but fun.

 

[Excidium II]

Sounds fun to me. The future of stealth games should have been bigger and bigger focus on simulation, instead of being stuck on some design evolution of frogger.