Review Discworld overhypes KOTOR

[Diogo Ribeiro]

I disagree with isometric view being the most important tactical component, let alone an important factor.

I agree with Voss. Isometric works because it displays the greatest depth of view, due mainly to the rectangular shape of our monitors. You want so see your character's actions as well as the effects on the enemies. Its not so much a problem with melee combat but with ranged combat I often find myself in the "pocket" trying to get as much distance as I can.

Unless there's something escaping me, isometric is a simple PoV. What matters is how the combination of elements is used in combat, from tactical elements, to character skills, to other things like terrain types. You can look to BG games, then you can compare them to X-Com for that. What i'm saying is, is that to me, isometric is not important if we had a replacement system that could have options such as the ones i described above. If you had a game like X-Com, with all its combat and map elements, but with a system which allowed to zoom in and out, a rotational axis that took into consideration the entire map, camera locking to allow players to establish their prefered PoV, and other such things, i can't see it being better than isometric.

 

[Volourn]

Saint, sorry, but NWN had more than power atack and knockdown when it first came out. Very quickly to point out it also had called shot (both arms and legs), and disarm as well and that's off the top of my head. Why do people make things up? That's my job...

 

[Vault Dweller]

Btw, why did they rename trip? Was it such a difficult word? Knockdown sounds kinda stupid, I'm surprised why they didn't rename power attack into "attack with more d4m4ge11!1!!"? Also called shot is a ranged feat, is it not? Saint was talking about melee.

 

[Volourn]

Called shot is not a ranged feat. Tsk, tsk. As for why thy renamed trip; I presume it's because it doesn't work exactly like its pnp counterpart. Also, knockdown is literally a knockdown of an opponent; not a trip though the end result is the same.

 

[triCritical]

Saint, sorry, but NWN had more than power atack and knockdown when it first came out. Very quickly to point out it also had called shot (both arms and legs), and disarm as well and that's off the top of my head. Why do people make things up? That's my job...

NWN did have a lot of stuff and what couldn't even make an argument for it having tactical, or smart combat. Except when one remembers all the other design decisions that went into the game. Such as the thousands of weak enemies (exaggeration), which require no need for tactics and just the huge numbers of enemies you have to face. Furthemore, to complete the game as some characters you needed to use tactics like rest after every encounter or frequent uses of town portal...

The problem with NWN is that while they had more for combat then the IE games, its seems they did everything in their power to still make the combat suck. You got to love killing one of the toughest creatures in all of Faerun with one character and a sidekick which can't find their way out of the room (tongue-in-cheek). Limiting a party based game to one character, unless you MP it, which happened to be its only real purpose, and designing levels that reminded me of Gauntlet (tongue-in-cheek). It was anything but smart combat.

The irony is that I remember arguing with someone that NWN was designed similar to other DnD modules and his example was Temple of Elemental Evil. This was of course before Atari even announced the game. The irony is that the amount of worthless combat in NWN vs. ToEE the CRPG's is about to 100 to 1 (exaggeration). Essentially NWN takes the previous king to pointless hack and slash and makes it looks like a not so combat oriented game.

NWN OC is a wannabe Gauntlet with CRPG rules.

Paranthesis are for nitwits that don't understand when irony such as sarcasm and exaggeration are used to prove a point using humor.

 

[Vault Dweller]

I meant in NWN, sorry. It's been awhile since I played it, but I recall somebody's bitching about it working only with ranged weapons. Never took it myself (I played only once), so I have no clue how Bio implemeted it, after all they did butcher...er, tweak a lot of feats because "they didn't work exactly like pnp counterparts". If it aint so, I'd gladly take your word for it

 

[Volourn]

Use the portal, or rest after nay encounter? Hmm.. I sure haven't done that even my few times playing the OC without finishing it for various reasons. In any game, including NWN, I never rest more than once during an actual adventure (ie. in BG2; I wouldn't do Frikragg's complex without resting or in TOEE; I'd work it out in the temple and if I needed to rest I would leave). And, this has never cause me problems; not even in the OC. I would only use the portal to return to town after the adventure was done, and I'd only rest inbetween them when I ehaed back to town. Thingss includes using classes like mages, rogues, or bards.

True, there are more than few encounters that are vrivilous and uneeded. However, that doesn't preclude there are encounters where just running into them without thinking would lead you to death.

Of course, TOEE does have its share of frivilous combat. I mean, how many battles with bugbears must one have? Gets sickening after awhile.

I do, in essence agree, that NWN OC would have been vastly improved if lots of the fighting was simply removed; and if they wanted you to still reahc the higher levels; just give you more xp. I lazily went through those batles just to get to the encounters that actually meant something - whether challenge or plot wise.

VD: Called shot to my knowledge has always worked in melee in the game. I know, I have felt the harm of repeated called shots, and have used it to my advantage on many occasions though many players underestimate this feat on-line. Their fighter is useless if they keep getting called shots to the arms (-2 to hit for 3 rounds). Heheh.

 

[Diogo Ribeiro]

Use the portal, or rest after nay encounter? Hmm.. I sure haven't done that even my few times playing the OC without finishing it for various reasons.

But including those two possibilities in such a way seriously unbalanced it.

I do, in essence agree, that NWN OC would have been vastly improved if lots of the fighting was simply removed; and if they wanted you to still reahc the higher levels; just give you more xp. I lazily went through those batles just to get to the encounters that actually meant something - whether challenge or plot wise.

Truth be told, i'd prefer if more ways around combat had been included instead oflat out removing combat.

 

[Volourn]

Only if abused. They were added so the newbies can use it not us kewl RPG genisues could. I never obeyed games' resting rules, anyways. Both the IE games, and TOEE allow for basically unlimited resting as long as you were able to deal with the *usuall* easy encounters that interrupted sleep. I surely didn't rest all the time in those games as I found those rules pretty weak too.

I'm not talking about removing all combat. I'm talking about the frivilous combat that Tri discussed. ie. The combat that adds NOTHING to the game except to get the player a chance to add a few more notches to his death dealing total.

 

[Diogo Ribeiro]

Only if abused. They were added so the newbies can use it not us kewl RPG genisues could. I never obeyed games' resting rules, anyways. Both the IE games, and TOEE allow for basically unlimited resting as long as you were able to deal with the *usuall* easy encounters that interrupted sleep. I surely didn't rest all the time in those games as I found those rules pretty weak too.

True, but despite some people not abusing it, the fact its there leads to abuse, unfortunately. Because it seems overpowered, even for newbies.

I'm not talking about removing all combat. I'm talking about the frivilous combat that Tri discussed. ie. The combat that adds NOTHING to the game except to get the player a chance to add a few more notches to his death dealing total.

NWN has worthwhile combat? :shock: :wink:

Seriously though, what combat events would you consider frivolous? To be honest, most of it seemed rather pointless.

 

[Volourn]

Well.. The OC; though it can be played mper; is mostly for SP so really it doesn't really matter if it can be 'abused". That goes for any SP games. I laugh when people pont out a game's "weakness' that is abuseable when it doens't effect them if others do it. ie. People complaining about all the 'free" xp one can get in TOEE if they continually rest and fight the monsters (same as the IE) and then complaining about how quickly they were rising in levels. Well.. I say, don't purpsoely rest over and over again.

Frivilous combat is when it adds nothing to the game, story, or atmosphere. Ones thata ren't frivilous would be "boss battles" even if they are easy because they tend to tie in with quests and stories.

 

[Diogo Ribeiro]

Well.. The OC; though it can be played mper; is mostly for SP so really it doesn't really matter if it can be 'abused". That goes for any SP games. I laugh when people pont out a game's "weakness' that is abuseable when it doens't effect them if others do it. ie. People complaining about all the 'free" xp one can get in TOEE if they continually rest and fight the monsters (same as the IE) and then complaining about how quickly they were rising in levels. Well.. I say, don't purpsoely rest over and over again.

I don't think that is a good excuse. Just because it is in SP doesn't excuse it. No, it doesn't affect me; it affects the game structure itself.

Frivilous combat is when it adds nothing to the game, story, or atmosphere. Ones thata ren't frivilous would be "boss battles" even if they are easy because they tend to tie in with quests and stories.

That was why i was asking for some examples :wink:

 

[Volourn]

Go to the goblin caves in ch2. Come back, and discuss how *all* those goblins added to the game.

 

[Elwro]

Only if abused. They were added so the newbies can use it not us kewl RPG genisues could. .

I thought that the portal was added as an excuse for not developing companion AI. "Sure, Tomi charges everyone even while having 1 HP, but you can always get him easily back via the portal, so why improve his AI?"

 

[Volourn]

Haha.

 

[Diogo Ribeiro]

Go to the goblin caves in ch2. Come back, and discuss how *all* those goblins added to the game.

True, true. I havent played the game in a long while (since i sold it, curiously ), but even i remember that one...

Only if abused. They were added so the newbies can use it not us kewl RPG genisues could. .

I thought that the portal was added as an excuse for not developing companion AI. "Sure, Tomi charges everyone even while having 1 HP, but you can always get him easily back via the portal, so why improve his AI?"

Gold

 

[Saint_Proverbius]

Called shot is not a ranged feat. Tsk, tsk. As for why thy renamed trip; I presume it's because it doesn't work exactly like its pnp counterpart. Also, knockdown is literally a knockdown of an opponent; not a trip though the end result is the same.

I thought Called Shot was for ranged. I'd forgotten about disarm.

 

[triCritical]

Use the portal, or rest after nay encounter? Hmm.. I sure haven't done that even my few times playing the OC without finishing it for various reasons. In any game, including NWN, I never rest more than once during an actual adventure (ie. in BG2; I wouldn't do Frikragg's complex without resting or in TOEE; I'd work it out in the temple and if I needed to rest I would leave). And, this has never cause me problems; not even in the OC. I would only use the portal to return to town after the adventure was done, and I'd only rest inbetween them when I ehaed back to town. Thingss includes using classes like mages, rogues, or bards.

Like I said for some characters. What happens if you play a mage, sorcerer, or any character with limited abilities. You can do one of two things. Save all your abilities for the boss, or you can use them all the time and rest and town portal to regain them. I played a cleric the first time through that specialized in melee and buffout options. And when did I use my buffout options? For the bosses, because I was sick of resting all the time. The fact is that you have about 100-200 enemies before you get to a boss, so gets pretty damn redundant. This is not the way DnD was designed. ToEE actually got DnD encounters right, given they stole it from the module, but the encounters were based on concentrated and tough battles, no really mundane ones.

True, there are more than few encounters that are vrivilous and uneeded. However, that doesn't preclude there are encounters where just running into them without thinking would lead you to death.

Per dungeon there were only a handful of thoughtful and provoking encounters in NWN. Whereas, ToEE grouped each encounter to be a tactical battle. This is how DnD was meant to be played. Hell even the IE games followed this model, although not as well. NWN is was just a design failure, mainly due to the engine I guess.

Of course, TOEE does have its share of frivilous combat. I mean, how many battles with bugbears must one have? Gets sickening after awhile.

Pre-temple = ONE!

And if you can't that as a chapter, and compare it to an analogous enemy in chapter one you see the difference.

I do, in essence agree, that NWN OC would have been vastly improved if lots of the fighting was simply removed; and if they wanted you to still reahc the higher levels; just give you more xp. I lazily went through those batles just to get to the encounters that actually meant something - whether challenge or plot wise.

Well just can't remove the fighting. You have to rework what the game is meant to do and that is clone Diablo. They said it themselves with BG meets Diablo. The problem is that Diablo does it so much better. I think a lot has to do with the fact that mechanics of Diablo were designed for just that. Whereas DnD was never meant to be played like that.