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Disco Elysium Pre-Release Thread [GO TO NEW THREAD]

Zombra

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Make the Codex Great Again! RPG Wokedex Strap Yourselves In Codex Year of the Donut Codex+ Now Streaming! Serpent in the Staglands Shadorwun: Hong Kong Divinity: Original Sin 2 BattleTech Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire Pathfinder: Kingmaker Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag. I'm very into cock and ball torture I helped put crap in Monomyth
As a CRPG, I'm finding it hard to get excited for this.
Dude, it seems like you are really hung up on RPG mechanics. You want to level up, compare stats on gear, skip dialogue, synergize combat abilities, grind xp, and complete quests for gold. I get it; classic crunchy CRPGs are fun. I like them too. But you know, maybe this isn't a project you should be clinging so tightly to. Loosen your grip a little bit here. Maybe get a back rub from someone you love. When you're ready, I think it'll be best if you let go altogether. This isn't going to be the hard core RPG of your dreams. Never was.
 
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Prime Junta

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Let me put it this way: if Divinity: Original Sin is your idea of a great cRPG, No Truce is probably not your bottle of rotgut.
 

Zombra

An iron rock in the river of blood and evil
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Make the Codex Great Again! RPG Wokedex Strap Yourselves In Codex Year of the Donut Codex+ Now Streaming! Serpent in the Staglands Shadorwun: Hong Kong Divinity: Original Sin 2 BattleTech Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire Pathfinder: Kingmaker Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag. I'm very into cock and ball torture I helped put crap in Monomyth
And another thing, Junmarko ... when you say Larian is delivering on "all of the above" meaning art and writing ... really? D:OS art is childish fantasy schlock and the writing is "Hi! I'm a magical wizard in the body of a cat! Meow!" That's all fine for what it is, but to subtly equate it to the provocative work that Furies has already shown is disingenuous at best and blindly tasteless at worst.

:whiteknight:
 
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hello friend

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I'm on an actual spaceship. No joke.
Agree 100%. I think they are making a Point-and-Click Adventure game and haven't even realized. It's basically a modernized Sierra classic. Nothing against that. But it's very obvious that there are too many artists/writers in the room, appealing to the wrong crowd.
You´re being extremely rude by referring to me in third person while I´m in the room.
Yeah, he really shouldn't do that.
 

MRY

Wormwood Studios
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playthroughs seem to be meant to be intricate experiences, rather than game scenarios with clearly defined victory conditions and fail-states
I share some of the skepticism about the game, but this gives me some pause. Because of save-scumming in RPGs, the "game scenario" portions (by which I guess you mean battles) don't actually really have "fail-states." Looked at retrospectively from the end of the game, the player's path is a continuous string of victories. The strategic and tactical layers of the game generally arise somewhat less from avoiding an outright game over, and more from managing attrition (typically of short-term resources) and growth (typically of long-term resources). Thus, an individual battle is typically a matter of "how can I minimize the loss to HP, MP (or memorized spells), and consummables, while avoiding any persistent negative status effects?" An area is typically a matter of "how can I maximize the gain to XP, gear, and reputation/companion happiness?" Put otherwise, the tactical/strategic layer of RPG gameplay is largely a matter of resource management in which a player reduces attrition of short-term resources in order to provide himself maximum opportunities for long-term growth. In that sense, it's not that different from, say, The Wall Street Kid for the NES.

The problem is that, overwhelmingly, RPG dialogue engages only the back half of this equation, and never involves short-term attrition concerns. (FWIW, this is one reason I think the Effort system in TTON is theoretically clever, even if actually unsuccessful.) What I gather Kasparov and his crew are talking about is moving the attrition-management side of combat into dialogues. The question is whether the dialogues provide enough tactical space and sufficiently predictable rules for that to work. But, theoretically speaking, the idea seems like a good one that would address a problem that has plagued RPGs generally.

(As an aside, the Lovecraftian game that Iron Tower was briefly sponsoring in days of yore also took a stab at dealing with this issue, by creating various risks to sanity, reputation, and interlocutor-attitude while you talked to someone. It was a nice idea.)
 

luinthoron

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I feel for the poor beleaguered programmers who have to take all that artistic vision and actually make it work without turning it into another Waiting for Grimoire story

I mean no offense, but what programmers? Where?

There are multiple technical devblog posts from programmers reposted in this very thread, some presenting rather clever solutions that may very well be seen for the first time ever in this game - especially the various ways to handle lighting, but also the weather systems, for example.
 
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Lurker King

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Dude, it seems like you are really hung up on RPG mechanics. You want to level up, compare stats on gear, skip dialogue, synergize combat abilities, grind xp, and complete quests for gold. I get it; classic crunchy CRPGs are fun. I like them too. But you know, maybe this isn't a project you should be clinging so tightly to. Loosen your grip a little bit here. Maybe get a back rub from someone you love. When you're ready, I think it'll be best if you let go altogether. This isn't going to be the hard core RPG of your dreams. Never was.
:nocountryforshitposters:
 

Kasparov

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I mean no offense, but what programmers? Where?
What are you... Trump? Do you need colorful pictures and/or JUNMARKO stamped all over an article to take notice?

Here you go. The first one even has pictures:
http://www.rpgcodex.net/forums/inde...role-playing-game.109209/page-13#post-4693089
http://www.rpgcodex.net/forums/inde...role-playing-game.109209/page-14#post-4732789
http://www.rpgcodex.net/forums/inde...role-playing-game.109209/page-15#post-4745327
http://www.rpgcodex.net/forums/inde...role-playing-game.109209/page-21#post-4871590

(I realize that the tags in our website's devblog are broken - that's on us and explains why I link to the Codex posts)

I think coders were discouraged by the lack of responses to their codespeak and now they stick to working on the game. I didn't include here the technical art articles that explain our dynamic lighting and weather systems.

There are multiple technical devblog posts from programmers reposted in this very thread, some presenting rather clever solutions that may very well be seen for the first time ever in this game - especially the various ways to handle lighting, but also the weather systems, for example.

As luinthoron pointed out - our weather system and dynamic lighting etc - that shit doesn't grow on trees. If you've worked with Unity, you'll find that there are some stock inventory plugins with crafting etc. All they need are some bells and whistles! But to really have a working system - it has to be built from ground up - programmers do that. Navigation and bridging Articy (for writing interactions and dialogues) - it's all coders, baby.

There are a few artists on the team, yeah. Rostov is the AD - he's doing the menus, character designs, modeling and portraits, he paints all the backgrounds once levels are rendered and assembled in Unity and he keeps the team working like a well oiled machine. Siim/Xiim is our technical artist - he is the bridge between programmers and us artfaggots. He makes the NTWTF world look the way it does. He is the rainmaker and ship-rocker. With picture math he makes threedee and toodee look like they're cut from the same cloth. Eduardo does the animating and Rauno models everything Rostov and myself throw at him. Young Marx takes care of a lot of technical stuff and animates assets. I do environment concepting and level design and worry about in-game feng shui. Now - Robert Kurvitz/Marat Sar is the lead designer and writer on NTWTF. It is originally his world and his story to tell - that he is doing with a cadre of talented writers. He is constantly working with programmers to translate literary hocus pocus and mechanics into codespeak that Unity understands. Timing animations, adding sound, sheeeed. None of the (outstanding, as you so well put it) art is just the work of a few artists - it is teamwork. It is sweat, snot and tears shed by two dozen people.

You see more art posts because we can pretty much take a few screengrabs and talk out of our asses and that's our progress report. Programming progress is harder to present in a meaningful way that would do it justice.
 

Kasparov

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Firstly, this argument we're having is besides any and all points. What the hell - what I was getting at with my previous post was that everybody is pooling their strengths into making this game and stressed the collaborative aspect of our day-to-day.

Secondly, you're forgetting that every single game is made by a team that functions in their own unique way. Here your Deus Example falls flat.

Thirdly, you're mixing working with and dictating. Again, I realize our day-to-day seems like an odd topic to discuss.

I gather from your persistent and subtle hints that you believe only people of a certain profession or do I dare say class - ho ho ho! - have the skills or faculties required to pull off certain mechanical feats. NTWTF is a classless game, you bourgeouisie pig! So fuck that and the horse you rode in on! /exit_roleplay

Your problem with our dev blog is that you wish to see a programmer explain mechanics of NTWTF. Is that it?
 
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santino27

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My team has the sexiest and deadliest waifus you can recruit.
Your problem with our dev blog is that you wish to see a programmer explain mechanics of NTWTF. Is that it?

Which is such a weird request. I mean as a programmer myself, very, very few of us are the sort that should be front and center detailing how everything works. Give me the feature requests, give me a scope, and I'll figure out the implementation and fix any problems that come up along the way, but I'm going to leave the song and dance stuff to the product people, thanks.
 

Prime Junta

Guest
Lol. Doubly unconvinced now. Writers are leading not only story direction, but the actual game mechanics here - instructing the coders to implement their word salad into more than a branching narrative via "strategic text", as you call it...

Design and implementation are separate roles. Outside one-man shows like Grimoire, Dwarf Fortress, or Spiderweb, it's rare that the same person does both.

Kurvitz does know his game design. He's not "just" or even primarily a writer. He's primarily a game master. His novel is set in his PnP campaign world. And he's been refining that PnP system for decades. Some of the system has been presented in their dev updates and also we talked about it when I visited. It's a really cool system, and very different in its goals from anything else I've seen.

But where is the game design beyond artistic intergration, Dr. Art Kopp?

http://zaumstudio.com/2016/05/06/reinventing-the-dialogue/
http://zaumstudio.com/2016/08/08/afterthoughts/
http://zaumstudio.com/2016/09/19/on-skill-checks/
http://zaumstudio.com/2016/09/30/design-ethos-role-playing-system/
http://zaumstudio.com/2016/10/06/active-skill-checks/
http://zaumstudio.com/2017/01/19/introducing-metric-arguably-worlds-simplest-role-playing-system/
http://zaumstudio.com/2017/02/13/meet-skills-intellect/
 
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Zombra

An iron rock in the river of blood and evil
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Make the Codex Great Again! RPG Wokedex Strap Yourselves In Codex Year of the Donut Codex+ Now Streaming! Serpent in the Staglands Shadorwun: Hong Kong Divinity: Original Sin 2 BattleTech Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire Pathfinder: Kingmaker Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag. I'm very into cock and ball torture I helped put crap in Monomyth
You know what made Deus Ex such a masterpiece? Harvey Smith was not instructed by the lead writer on game mechanics nor did Smith take command of story elements.
"There was this one good game where the writer and the designer never talked to each other. Therefore that is the reason that game was good. Also this proves that writers and designers should never talk to each other. I'm good at logic."
 

Kasparov

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That's harsh. Your art team has a lot of class, you not so much. You're a classless ideologue posing as a CRPG developer. /exit_roleplay
Yes it has. And no. I may be classless, that is fair and probably true in certain circles, but I´m the least bit ideological.
 

SausageInYourFace

Angelic Reinforcement
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In your face
Divinity: Original Sin 2 BattleTech Bubbles In Memoria A Beautifully Desolate Campaign Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag. My team has the sexiest and deadliest waifus you can recruit. Pathfinder: Wrath
D:OS art is childish fantasy schlock and the writing is "Hi! I'm a magical wizard in the body of a cat! Meow!"

Come on man, Rivellon evokes the kind of fantasy associated with legend, with fairy tales and fables. I consider it to be quite charming and combined with the humor its refreshing from actual generic fantasy stuff. I am actually worried DOS2 will do away with that cause Codexians shat on the tone of the game much beyond what was reasonable.
 

Iznaliu

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All side-quests and optional content should be unforgiving, your questlog should be full of QUEST FAILEDs all in red, your reputation (both in the secondary world of the game and on the Codex) should be tarnished as you repeatedly fail. But you should be able to complete the game nonetheless, although completing it after having soiled one's name everywhere and in every possible way should become increasingly challenging.

This doesn't make sense from a story-telling perspective. The main quest/critical path/whatever is main due to it being important. One of the key determiners of importance is challenge, and other determiners such as urgency come with their own story-telling problems. You might say "I don't care about the story", but even the most jaded grognard would be unable to play a game made out of black and white line art, where enemies and items are unnamed and with no story whatsoever. There are no classes or races in this hypothetical game; they are just "STAT OPTION SET 1" etc.
 

Kasparov

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Yes it has. And no. I may be classless, that is fair and probably true in certain circles, but I´m the least bit ideological.

NTWTF is a classless game, you bourgeouisie pig!

You'll probably end up charging the bourgeoisie price for No Truce With The Furies though, won't you? :lol:

Classless and spineless.
Pah! For a second there I thought... but alas, no. You missed the joke in its entirety and crossed over into ad hominem territory...
:negative:

I´m sure the game will be priced accordingly. We´ll gladly give it away for free, if it ever becomes an option, but we want to keep making games of this caliber.
 

Prime Junta

Guest
Kaur Kender doing some grade-A trolling here. Moving to London out of fear of nuclear war?

"We're creative people, and we're quite political," he says. "[But] it's a mental situation, it's not really good for doing creative work because the whole time you feel that actually you should be digging something, or practising your shooting, or preparing for war. It's not really a video game-friendly situation. [In London] it's so much easier."

http://www.gamesindustry.biz/articles/2017-07-20-making-games-under-threat-of-nuclear-war
 
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Lurker King

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However, I subscribe to a carefully edited and smugly misrepresented design philosophy perhaps not coined by Josh Sawyer, but indeed popularised by him; you should be able to beat the critical path. It should be possible to complete the game, it's a truism.
You should be able to complete the game if you master the systems.

The threat of a giant smug GAME OVER screen should, in my opinion, keep on looming over players as an incentive to really give a shit about what they're doing in most games.
Or maybe they should adopt the proper mindset and man the fuck up.

However, we're talking cRPGs, a genre much more creative than Tetris, thus we should perhaps put aside such extremes and think of different kinds of fail-states.
This is weird. Every complex genre besides storyfag cRPGs have these "extremes". I don't understand why things
would be any different with cRPGs. Until now you are only assuming that the way developers have been doing things is the right way.

Let me give you an argument: cRPGs are different from other games in the sense that you need to invest a lot of time in character building, proper equipment and
leveling. You need so much investement that the idea that you should restart for making a bad character loses the purpose.

Now let me show why this mindset is wrong: restarting to make a better build and explore other possibilities is half of the fun in playing a decent cRPG.
This is how things should be. It should not be interpreted as a nuisance. cRPGs are time consuming. People who don't have time, the patience or the energy to play and master a decent cRPG shouldn't go anywhere near cRPGs. They will ruin the fun for the rest of us and water down the stuff that matters.

Aside from combat romps, cRPGs tend to be storyfaggy to an extent, thus the notion of sole mechanical challenge (is my half-orc wizard going to fuck aberrants up or not, let's do the math) is, to some degree, dilluted.
Which shows that most storyfag games have diluted gameplay and removed challenge from the equation, which is a bad thing. If this wouldn't be justified even if these games had Shakespeare material, imagine with the kind of actual writing and choices they deliver.
 
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Lurker King

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I´m sure the game will be priced accordingly. We´ll gladly give it away for free, if it ever becomes an option, but we want to keep making games of this caliber.
You are exploring the oppressed players with your price tag and consumerism. Give us your stuff for free. It is only fair. Enough with this capitalist bullshit.
 
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Lurker King

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I've given your words a thought and I must stay I disagree with you. If anything, it makes even more sense from a storytelling perspective, at least to me.
It makes zero sense. You are allowing the player to arbitrarily surpass every obstacle in the main campaign but preventing him to do the same on the sidequests. It is an admission that challenge should be an integral part of gameplay and that you are conceding the main path just to prevent complaints. It does not make sense. One that complains about failed states in the main campaign will do the same about fail states in the sidequests. It is incoherent design taylor made to fix something that it isn't broken. The only thing that needs to be fixed is player's expectations.
 
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Lurker King

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I'm not against obstacles, I'm against unsubstantiated guesswork; completability does not imply accessibility to me. As for being motivated by player complaints, they really matter little to me. The model I've envisioned applies only to cRPGs which purport to be story-driven (as opposed to challenge-driven games), in order for storyfags to get high on their storyfaggotry as they please, but without hindering the fun of non-diseased cRPG players.
Some things you are missing with this anti-guesswork line of reasoning:
  • It increases the feeling that the game world is immersive and is not there just for you. It make things more believable and less gamey.
  • The problem with the idea that every built is supported in all quests is that the game world has rules of its own. I don’t understand how you can make every skill useful unless you throw logic out of the window or reduce the amount of skills.
  • Guesswork is an integral element of other genres (platforms, race games, etc.) without any detrimental effect on gameplay. So you need to explain why failed states that result from guesswork are ok in other genres, but not in cRPGs.
 

Kasparov

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If it were up to me I would lock out whole swaths of (side) content if the player didn´t meet certain conditions or didn´t solve certain puzzles.

About guesswork - I believe that different genres work differently and guesswork might not work everywhere. Essentially it comes down to pacing. It´s that fun VS engaging that was touched upon in the last interview (not the moving to London interview - the one before that). Guesswork has to be engaging and in a fast paced game that might work, but might need some iterating on to work for a slower game.

When Kanye West worked on a videogame, people laughed because...he's a musician and not a game designer...they shouldn't...that's classism...he could even make a CRPG with "strategic rhymes" n'shit.
I love it how you took "only programmers can work with mechanics", ran with it, and ended up with Kanye West :salute:
 

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