Deus ex Vs Bloodlines

[Ash]

I'm not a forum regular. I just came on because I wanted to see what the Codex thought of DX4 but this thread caught my attention. Little did I expect it to be a meeting of two great modders.

I'm actually one of those people who argued with Ash about DX's design principles way back in the day

Colonel? Good to see you again.

Bear in mind back then I was not as dedicated, informed, experienced, whatever. GMDX was just another mod.

I'm inviting you to the beta testing of v9.0, set to begin soon. Monocled ones are sought to ensure immaculacy.
Feel free to decline.

 

[Beautiful Clown Painting]

Bloodlines wins hands down for me, it's more sexy (not talking about the vampire setting, don't give a fuck about that).

 

[Diggfinger]

(Vote is unfair - nobody can compete with a Troika game).
Bloodlines. No doubt. RPG elements, atmosphere. Not to mention Alistair Grout being my favorite NPC evah in any game. All time top-5 fav game!

Never really got into Deus Ex. Tried playing it a year ago (again) due to all the fan boy hype, but I did not really enjoy it. While I commend the game for mixing alot of elements such as RPG, shooter, stealth etc. I find that each element is rather weak. The coolness comes from combining all those parts, but I never really got a kick out of the RPG elements and the shooting always felt very sloppy to me.

This article from RPS kindda confirms my point. Dude seems to think, that while certainly a groundbreaking game in many ways, Deus Ex might be one of those games exceedingly spoiled by nostalgia (e.g. he points out the non-existent C&C).

 

[Wesp5]

This article from RPS kindda confirms my point. Dude seems to think, that while certainly a groundbreaking game in many ways, Deus Ex might be one of those games exceedingly spoiled by nostalgia (e.g. he points out the non-existent C&C).

I think this is a valid argument for several high praised classics. I would add System Shock 2 to the list, where people seem to forget the endless spawning enemies, breaking weapons, stupid backtracking and weird level layout, or STALKER, which basically was a mess when it came out and had me die due to a random bug right in the middle with no way back! I replayed STALKER with a Complete mod years later and could finally appreciate it. But back to DX, what is this Revision mod that is mentioned in the article and that even got onto Steam? Is this something like the GMDX mod? Which one do you people recommend? Because in case I actually find the time to replay DX, I would want to have the most complete and improved version! And I know from Bloodlines that different lines of patches can exist...

 

[HansDampf]

In my experience, the nostalgia argument doesn't hold much water, at least not in the way it's used most of the time. It certainly does play a roll though. If I were to play Deus Ex today for the first time, I'm not sure that it would still end up being my favorite PC game of all time. I can't know for sure, but I bet I would at least greatly enjoy it and maybe even play it twice. In the last 2-3 years I've caught up on a lot of older classics from the same time period, including SS2, F1+2, BG1+2, Thief 1+2, X-COM, PS:T, and I've had more fun with those than with most modern games. Some of them I'm definitely going to play again. Bloodlines is just the latest example of this and might even surpass Deus Ex on my list. No nostalgia needed. Unless you think I'm nostalgic for the old style of games in general, I don't know about that.
Why are so many people still playing these games today? If it were pure nostalgia, they'd realize these games are actually shit and never touch them again lest they spoil their precious childhood memories. Instead, they keep reinstalling them again and again (or never uninstall them).

But back to DX, what is this Revision mod that is mentioned in the article and that even got onto Steam? Is this something like the GMDX mod? Which one do you people recommend? Because in case I actually find the time to replay DX, I would want to have the most complete and improved version! And I know from Bloodlines that different lines of patches can exist...

Revision largely focusses on improving the visuals, but it's more like it adds so much clutter and garbage (literally) to the maps that it makes the old engine crumble. Might even be to your liking, since the lack of detail and realism seems to be your biggest gripe with the game. But it's not where the game's strengths lie anyway. Just compare the ratings on moddb, and play GMDX.

 

[Dreaad]

One of the problems with Deus Ex was always the opening level. It's a nice introduction to the mechanics but there is no hook until you get to UNATCO, no interesting plot or characters. It's also got a really fucked up design in terms of world building. Your allies and enemies walking around so close to each other, random bums selling you poison darts and mines, some robot man trapped in a jail like place.... inside the 5 story statue of liberty. It's pretty shit compared to the later levels. So yeah I can imagine someone trying the game and giving up.

 

[Carrion]

I don't buy into the nostalgia argument at all. I played System Shock 2 years after it was released, and it blew me away by how great it was. Many of the late 90's classics are something I only got into much, much later, and a few of those games became some of my favorite games of all time. On the other hand I played Deus Ex around the time it was released, and I've been regularly replaying it since then and enjoyed every playthrough immensely.

But back to DX, what is this Revision mod that is mentioned in the article and that even got onto Steam? Is this something like the GMDX mod? Which one do you people recommend? Because in case I actually find the time to replay DX, I would want to have the most complete and improved version! And I know from Bloodlines that different lines of patches can exist...

Revision gets a lot of hype, but I think it's more down to the marketing than the actual quality of the mod. Bright lights, loud nouses, shiny graphics. It makes major changes to some levels (while leaving others pretty much completely intact), but it often does it without giving much thought to why the original did things the way it did, meaning that some areas don't make all that much sense, or just don't work all that well because the pacing gets ruined. It's also got some other terrible elements, like new music that sounds nothing like the originals, and the AI is possibly even more broken than before. It seems to change many things just for the sake of change, and not always for the better. GMDX is generally much more faithful to Deus Ex and much more in-depth when it comes to improving the mechanics of the game, and it's certainly the more "complete and improved" of the two. If you want Deus Ex, get GMDX.

I also would recommend playing Stalker without the Complete mod, as it generally dumbs down the game in many ways and makes changes that are in no way necessary. Zone Reclamation Project fixes most of the bugs and issues in the original, and it's probably the better choice if you want a faithful mod that unbreaks the game.

 

[GrainWetski]

You can safely ignore the opinion of anyone that uses the word nostalgia. I've never seen anyone use it for any other reason than to make their own opinions seem as though they're facts.

This article from RPS kindda confirms my point. Dude seems to think, that while certainly a groundbreaking game in many ways, Deus Ex might be one of those games exceedingly spoiled by nostalgia (e.g. he points out the non-existent C&C).

Here's where you should've stopped reading

By John Walker

Well, actually here

Rock Paper Shotgun

 

[Wesp5]

Revision gets a lot of hype, but I think it's more down to the marketing than the actual quality of the mod. Bright lights, loud nouses, shiny graphics.

Yeah, their website is very professional, even compared to the GMDX site which isn't bad itself. To imagine I don't even have a site for my VTMB UP ...

It makes major changes to some levels (while leaving others pretty much completely intact), but it often does it without giving much thought to why the original did things the way it did, meaning that some areas don't make all that much sense, or just don't work all that well because the pacing gets ruined.

I don't know much about that, but while I hated the missing details of the original DX maps, they have a screenshot of Hong Kong up, where they added a lot of stuff, but most of this is only garbage cans, carbage sacks and more garbage. It actually looked too randomly cluttered for my taste already! Hope GMDX does this better.

It's also got some other terrible elements, like new music that sounds nothing like the originals, and the AI is possibly even more broken than before.

I can't judge the AI, but replacing all of the music is wrong! I restored some original composer pieces for the UP and even this was a borderline decision.

So the GMDX 9.0 it will be !

I also would recommend playing Stalker without the Complete mod, as it generally dumbs down the game in many ways and makes changes that are in no way necessary.

I don't really know which mod I used for my STALKER replay, but I did already play the original game until it broke. A lot of undelivered hype there even then, like the "A-Life"!

 

[Ash]

I would add System Shock 2 to the list, where people seem to forget the endless spawning enemies, breaking weapons, stupid backtracking

You say that as if they're somehow inherently bad. The endless respawning and weapon degradation are good things. Each serve very specific, very meaningful purposes that correspond with the rest of the game's great design. As for backtracking, how many games have you played? Some recycle the whole first half of the game in the second and just slap on a different camera filter (slight exaggeration). The game borders the line of what is acceptable and it does feel organic anyway. Or would you prefer a conveniently placed conveyor belt that sends you straight to where you need to go every time, a la Skyrim's "secret" dungeon exits.

System Shock 2 too is a (far) better game, worse RPG than Bloodlines. But it's not even trying to be much of an RPG anyway.

Revision gets a lot of hype, but I think it's more down to the marketing than the actual quality of the mod.

Got a lot of hype. I mostly only see it bashed these days. Nonetheless it has +1400% the # of downloads GMDX has, and was an overwhelming amount of modern/HR fan's first experience of the game. Marketing is everything.

Anyhow, fans are slowly sorting the wheat from the chaff. This thread is one of many examples. Too little too late though.

[Revision] Might even be to your liking, since the lack of detail and realism seems to be your biggest gripe with the game.

The mod does a lot to damage realism, probably about as much as it adds to it.

One of the problems with Deus Ex was always the opening level. It's a nice introduction to the mechanics but there is no hook until you get to UNATCO, no interesting plot or characters. It's also got a really fucked up design in terms of world building. Your allies and enemies walking around so close to each other, random bums selling you poison darts and mines, some robot man trapped in a jail like place.... inside the 5 story statue of liberty. It's pretty shit compared to the later levels. So yeah I can imagine someone trying the game and giving up.

Truth. You come to love Liberty Island on the second playthrough and beyond, but as first impressions it's really not good. I'm constantly worrying about the map with GMDX. It too is the first impression for the mod, and it's also the hardest to work with and logically improve. I think v9.0 so far is p. good though, but still imperfect. I need testers to place razor sharp focus on that map with their feedback.

 

[Bashar]

The new music created for Revision is optional. You can switch back to the original score in the options menu. It was composed by a duo including Jerion, who is a big DX fan and was a moderator over on the official forum. It's much more ambient and on the whole more reflective of Michael McCann's work on Human Revolution, trying to incorporate the themes of the first game with the style of the third.

That's really reflective of the project as a whole, I think. Especially after Square Enix got involved, the project seemed to shift toward tying in callbacks to the prequel rather than its originally stated goal of rebuilding the maps to create a new experience. There's only a few maps that are fundamentally different; Hells Kitchen, Paris, and Area 51 come to mind. While those are impressive, most other maps kept the basic structure of the originals intact and focused instead on adding definition and clutter.

Another thing that Revision does is let you seamlessly choose between the Human Renovation, Shifter, and Biomod gameplay mods from in-game. It also comes with the DirectX 10 renderer, the New Vision texture pack and the HDTP object pack pre-installed. So it certainly offers a lot of convenience. Unfortunately if you don't play with any of those gameplay mods then you're out of luck. GMDX and the Deus Ex 2.0 mod/unofficial patch are incompatible. I think one of the reasons that a lot of purists have trouble with Revision is because the developers assumed that Human Renovation was the de facto unofficial patch when in actuality it makes some significant changes to the way stealth works that people jumping in from the vanilla game aren't prepared for.

Revision is worth a try for the amount of effort that the developers put in to it and for the fact that it's free and installs as a separate instance, so you can play the real Deus Ex while it's downloading on Steam. As a mod, though, to me it missed a lot of potential in switching its priorities to form over function.

Colonel? Good to see you again.

<salute> Likewise.

Sure. I'm actually due for another play of Deus Ex soon so trying out GMDX 9 sounds like a good reason to start. I think the last version I played was 5 so I know a lot has been added since then. I'm going to be busy through to next week but send me a pm when you're ready and I'll give it a shot once my schedule clears up.

Also, in other news, I'm not sure if you've ever gotten around to playing FNV on the PC but my latest mod repurposes the detection indicator as a Thief-style light gem. It's not perfect since FNV's stealth is wonky but it at least lets you know what is and isn't a shadow.

That reminds me, getting back to the differences between Deus Ex and VTMB, the former has more content mods. I know VTMB has a few that change the story structure and add quests but there are no overhauls in the same scope as the Nameless Mod, 2027, and Nihilum. Maybe now with ability to build maps from scratch this will change and we'll start to see some stories told in VTMB that take place outside of LA with a different set of characters but as it stands now I have a lot more flexibility in choosing what story and world I want to explore in Deus Ex.

 

[Black]

You're not Black_Willow

 

[Ash]

Version 5? Insignificant. Probably shouldn't even qualify as incline. GMDX has made leaps and bounds since then.

Revision is worth a try for the amount of effort that the developers put in to it and for the fact that it's free and installs as a separate instance

Perhaps I saw a monocle where there is none.

By that logic this mod is worth a try too: Cold Gaming: Naferia's Reign

A quick look at a trainwreck of a Duke Nukem 3D mod that attempts to fuse the shooter with RPG elements. Well let me tell you something: I love Duke Nukem 3D and I love RPGs, and this mod is so bad it makes me want to renounce both!

The only thing that should determine what is worth anyone's time or not is quality.

 

[pippin]

It also helps that Revision is a mod available on Steam whcih you can install pretty easily. You wouldn't believe how this changes stuff for the average computer user.
I agree - System Shock 2 is also spoiled by nostalgia, but that nostalgia comes from Ken Levine. Some people even think he created the entire System Shock franchise, others won't play 1 because it wasn't made by him, a fact that instantly turns it into a bad game (same with Bioshock 2 actually).

 

[Ash]

GMDX's installation process is essentially download mod -> run installer. For steam users there can be complications though.

Even if I were offered Steam exclusivity by SE today I'd probably tell them where to shove it. It's a middle finger to modding as a concept, and also sells out other Deus Ex mods. Yet now that one mod has done it, ideally the rest have to follow suit to compete. Cause and effect, just how the industry itself quickly fell into steep decline.

 

[Dev_Anj]

I think this playthrough/analysis is a very good look into Revision: https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL3laL-0kjIFwOd7pN9_nKkVH_XKyMytLw . He starts out with a standard video lp style but from video 2 onwards he switches towards being more serious. Even if you disagree with his thoughts, I do think they are largely well argued, plus some of his jokes are funny.

Oh yeah, and GMDX and Revision are nothing like each other. GMDX does focus a bit more on graphics for its 9.0 release(alongside other things), yet it attempts to respect the original design and avoid too many frivolous changes/additions. Anyhow, I hope you play it soon Wesp5, I'm eager to hear the opinion of a respected modder on it!

 

[Carrion]

I think this playthrough/analysis is a very good look into Revision: https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL3laL-0kjIFwOd7pN9_nKkVH_XKyMytLw .

dat Hell's Kitchen

I knew it was bad, but holy shit. It's like they were trying to ruin it in as many ways as possible.

 

[Wesp5]

You say that as if they're somehow inherently bad. The endless respawning and weapon degradation are good things. Each serve very specific, very meaningful purposes that correspond with the rest of the game's great design. As for backtracking, how many games have you played?

I know we have different opinions about what makes a game good, you go for abstract gameplay and I go for realism. But endless respawning enemies out of dead ends with no way into once you cleared them out, that you have to bash with a wrench, because every high-tech super weapons decomposes after a few shots due to some stupid technobabble was just too much for me! The only meaningful purpose I can see in this is to prolong the playing time without much effort. As for backtracking, I had basically played every FPS available at the time and while I actually hate doors that close behind me and stop me from backtracking, what annoyed me with SS2 was that you had to reload several maps to move between areas like just to change an elevator that could have gone through in the first place. Together with several other bad maps that looked nothing at all like how the interior of a spaceship could possible look like, but more than some kind of intentional maze, that's horrible level design to me, much worse than anything I remember from DX! I heard that SS1 was much better...

 

[Ash]

If you have a problem with SS2's mazes SS1's will make you rage. It's mazes within mazes within mazes.

 

[Wesp5]

If you have a problem with SS2's mazes SS1's will make you rage. It's mazes within mazes within mazes.

Oh, then it's nothing for me. I recently played the SS1 remake demo and the first thought I had was "Who would build a space station with a layout like this?" Like you need to go to the engine section to get to the medlab. I hate all artifical mazes, which is why I also hate most of the sewer levels in games, and this also includes the endless sewers of Bloodlines...

 

[Ash]

Too much realism and you may as well go outside. LGS games struck a perfect balance.

So you must really hate the shooting mechanics and HP bloat of enemies in bloodlines then? You can shoot human enemies repeatedly in the head (preferably by getting right in their face because of the garbage accuracy system) and only do peanut damage.

 

[Wesp5]

Too much realism and you may as well go outside. LGS games struck a perfect balance.

I llike a little more realism as with the Half-Life series or Bloodlines, but as I already said, it's a matter of taste. And I loved the LGS Thief games! I guess you all know about The Dark Mod, which is a better successor that the offiicial games.

You can shoot human enemies repeatedly in the head (preferably by getting right in their face because of the garbage accuracy system)...

Yes, sadly headshots are hard-coded to specific enemies! Only zombies react to those, so we know this is implemented somehow, but we can't get it to work on anybody else.

Speaking of headshots. Is DX modable there? Because it's almost as bad that you can only do headshots with certain stats! You have hopefully fixed that in the GMDX mod, no?

 

[Diggfinger]

This article from RPS kindda confirms my point. Dude seems to think, that while certainly a groundbreaking game in many ways, Deus Ex might be one of those games exceedingly spoiled by nostalgia (e.g. he points out the non-existent C&C).

I think this is a valid argument for several high praised classics. I would add System Shock 2 to the list, where people seem to forget the endless spawning enemies, breaking weapons, stupid backtracking and weird level layout, or STALKER, which basically was a mess when it came out and had me die due to a random bug right in the middle with no way back! I replayed STALKER with a Complete mod years later and could finally appreciate it. But back to DX, what is this Revision mod that is mentioned in the article and that even got onto Steam? Is this something like the GMDX mod? Which one do you people recommend? Because in case I actually find the time to replay DX, I would want to have the most complete and improved version! And I know from Bloodlines that different lines of patches can exist...

Are you the world-famous Wesp5 who has modded/updated the crap out of Bloodlines?

 

[Multidirectional]

And I loved the LGS Thief games!

Have you replayed Thief with this yet?

http://www.moddb.com/mods/thief-gold-hd-texture-mod/news/thief-1-hd-mod-v12-is-out

*Ignore the shitty bloom in trailer, mod looks great with post processing off.

 

[Ash]

Speaking of headshots. Is DX modable there? Because it's almost as bad that you can only do headshots with certain stats! You have hopefully fixed that in the GMDX mod, no?

No. There's nothing that needs fixing here. Game balance takes precedence. Yet it's just realistic enough to not be a immersion breaking problem anyway. Bloodline's repeated point blank shotgun blasts to the head is a problem, an absolute mess, while Deus Ex's headshot system is a perfect balance between gameplay and realism (as usual).

All I did to Deus Ex's headshots was fix hitbox issues and sneak attack multipliers. So there was something that needed fixing, but any bullet being instant death as a rule, nah I won't do that.

Nearly anything in DX is moddable.