From Software Dark Souls LORE THREAD (Spoilers)

[Silva]

When did humanity appeared in the Souls cosmology ? I understand humanity is associated with Pygmy and its find, the dark soul. So every human being has a fragment of the dark soul inside him. But this raises a couple questions:

1. what are those beings who find the great souls inside the flames in DS1 intro ? They look like undead. *EDIT*: watching the intro again, it says the beings who got the flames "..came from the dark". Could they be animated shadows or something ?

2. if the player choose to NOT rekindle the flame and thus let the "Age of Darkness" fall upon the world, does that mean the undead will be cured and the world will be dominated by living humans again (only this time without the gods) ? Or does that mean it will be a world of undead ?



Also, Ive heard some people saying Lord Aldia is the Ancient Dragon. If that was the case, shouldnt the Dragon drop "Lord Aldia Soul" or something like that, instead of dropping a "Giant Soul" ? (also, the magical powder that he gives you has a natural affinity with giants, it seems, as it lets you experience their memories)

 

[Random]

The Darksign is a curse intrinsically linked to the First Flame and the Bonfires. Letting the First Flame go out would end the curse. The Age of Dark is another way of saying the Age of Humanity. There will be no undead, though there is the potential of the Dark Soul growing too powerful and producing another Manus or worse. It's mostly ambiguous though, which keeps it interesting.

Also, there's nothing that says that a Second Flame can never be born, just that it cannot be artificially produced.

The nature of the beings who find the Lord Souls in the First Flame is unclear, but they are most certainly not undead, or at least, not Darksign undead. Darksign undead are a phenomena that only appeared with the waning of the First Flame, as a sort of desperate measure to try and make humans collect pieces of the Dark Soul and return them to the fire from whence they came.

Humanity is not a measure of life, either. Life is life. Humanity is something simultaneously more valuable and more foul than life. Life is possible without humanity, as that is what everything nonhuman, including the Giants, is. Ostensibly, it should be entirely possible for even humans who do not have the Darksign to lose their humanity, though the process of losing their humanity may very well kill them. I have a feeling that the loss of humanity upon death is actually the bonfire stealing the humanity from your corpse and then reviving you so that you go find more.

 

[Silva]

Darksign undead are a phenomena that only appeared with the waning of the First Flame, as a sort of desperate measure to try and make humans collect pieces of the Dark Soul and return them to the fire from whence they came.

So the Darksign curse could be a ploy from the gods to see their "golden age" back and remain in power ?

I thought it was a kind of natural world phenomena connected to the dwindling of the first flame, or something like that.

 

[Random]

So the Darksign curse could be a ploy from the gods to see their "golden age" back and remain in power ?

I thought it was a kind of natural world phenomena connected to the dwindling of the first flame, or something like that.

I don't think it's something the gods created. I think the gods merely sought to capitalize on the Darksign's existence for their own ends. The curse is more likely something created by the First Flame as a defense mechanism, though I do not think it is sentient or anything like that. It's just a force of nature struggling to remain in existence as much as possible.

 

[Murk]

Whether it is natural or not, the gods are definitely manipulating it to get undead humans to rekindle the flames. They know that the undead keep being reborn; and you'll note that the bonfires are not full of wood but full of bones (and also why the homeward bone is not only a borderline pun but also a reference to human bones being burned in the flames).

A part of me thinks that the reason the original flame died out is because the dark soul was removed from it; as humanity was spread around there was less concentrated. We know the flames eat humanity and are literally fed by human flesh/bones, and so it makes sense to me that the first flame is petering out specifically because the pygmy tore his dark soul up and spread it to his progeny.

Aldia is definitely not the ancient dragon; he is an imposter who used the power of the giant soul to make himself into a dragon. Giant souls are very powerful and can fuel certain things like making Vendrick invulnerable to physical harm (but not to the curse, lel) and helped to turn Aldia into a fake dragon (the cat also calls him an imposter).

"i want to be the dragon" indeed.

 

[Silva]

Ok, so Aldia is not a true ancient dragon... but is he THAT (fake) big ancient dragon that gives the magical memory powder to us ? Because I didnt find any evidence that it is actually him. (I believe Aldia simply vanished)

Also, did all those dragons were already there when Aldia found the Dragon Aerye ? Or were they extinct and what we see now is the result of Aldia´s experiments in creating dragons ?

And what about the Emerald Herald ? I understood she is an experiment fusing a dragon and a human to try to break the curse in some way (which failed, BTW). Does it make sense ?

 

[Gozma]

In the opening video of DaS1 it looked like hollows existed before "fire" or "humanity" did (the bit where they show hollows stumbling towards the first flame). The "darksign curse" and hollowing is then really just a reversion to the previous state of affairs.

I thought there was a big disconnect in their gameplay-storytelling with New Londo/Four Kings and Oolacile where in terms of narrative it seems like ODing on humanity is possible but gameplay-wise the stuff is pure golden sunshine that is always 100% good, solid or liquid.

 

[Silva]

In the opening video of DaS1 it looked like hollows existed before "fire" or "humanity" did (the bit where they show hollows stumbling towards the first flame). The "darksign curse" and hollowing is then really just a reversion to the previous state of affairs.

Yup, makes sense. It means humanity would be lost in the Age of Darkness and everybody would be hollow (an "Age of Hollows"). Also, I understand the 4 great souls found in the flame brought 4 great things to the world:

Gwin - Light
Witch of Izalitch - Life
Nito - Dead
Pygmy - Dark (humanity)

Proof of this is the intro telling the world encounters itself in an eternal twilight or something, and the game reinforces it by showing how Anor Londo sunlight is fake (in reality its all night). The same is happening with Life, Light, Dead and Humanity. All these are slowly vanishing together with the flame. In a way the flame represents not only personified gods, but also elements of reality.

I thought there was a big disconnect in their gameplay-storytelling with New Londo/Four Kings and Oolacile where in terms of narrative it seems like ODing on humanity is possible but gameplay-wise the stuff is pure golden sunshine that is always 100% good, solid or liquid.

Sorry, what "ODing" means ?

 

[Murk]

Over dosing.

The reason I assume Aldia is the (fake) dragon.

Aldia made the herald who is basically striving to keep up Vendrick's work. Aldia experimented on giants (can find corpses in his manor) and the giant souls powered Vendrick's immortality. The dragon is made of a giant soul. The Dragon refers to itself as "we" but that may just be the royal attitude talking (rat king calls itself 'we' but he also governs rats and may be using it conventionally).

So, my guess, is that Aldia either became the dragon OR Aldia made the dragon and it, like the Emerald Herald, is just doing the mission given to it. My guess that he is the dragon is because it seems both brothers sought immortality and Aldia succeeded in it, albeit for different reasons.

I got the feeling the red dragons are not real dragons, but Wyverns like the bridge/Hellkite. They lacked the gigantic and eternal nature of a real dragon -- they seemed more feral. If enough time has passed, people may have forgotten what the old ancient dragons were and instead just view the wyverns as 'dragons'. Think also about the one petrified dragon egg and the dozens of red-wyvern eggs you break because smashy smashy.

 

[Gozma]

OverDosing, like overdosing on cocaine etc

 

[Murk]

I'm assuming you mean the Oolacile townsfolk are ODing. My guess is that humanity harms them because they're not undead (like the description says; people had no need for it until they became undead). You, as an undead, need all the humanity you can get because it is being used up. Like diabetus, I guess. The events in Oolacile are before the accursed darksign has shown up, no? Back when Gwyn was still around (albeit in decline).

 

[Silva]

What do you mean by humanity harming Oolacile folks ?

Also, what brought Manus to Oolacile ? I remember he being the "primeval man" or something but nothing beyond that.

 

[Murk]

He was buried there; could be that he just lived in the area? Gotta be somewhere, right?

Chester tells you that the townsfolk dug up the grave of primeval man and, being led by a "toothy serpent" enraged him (presumably by stealing his medallion).

Oolacile townfolk became corrupted by the abyss (hence the bloatheads) and there are humanity sprite-monsters. My guess is that the abyss (darkness) and humanity are directly connected, which is why the corrupt townsfolk are on the outskirts but mostly full on humanity sprites are in the abyss itself.

 

[Random]

In the opening video of DaS1 it looked like hollows existed before "fire" or "humanity" did (the bit where they show hollows stumbling towards the first flame). The "darksign curse" and hollowing is then really just a reversion to the previous state of affairs.

Hollowing is indeed a return to the state humans were in during the Age of Ancients, but the Darksign curse is 100% unrelated to that. The previous state of affairs is not undeath and the previous state of affairs is not a big plot to gather remnants of the Dark Souls to fuel the dying embers of the First Flame. Yes, the opening showed creatures that are clearly supposed to be hollows, but that's because they were humans before they got humanity. Think of the curse as one of the few ways to see a human without humanity in the Age of Fire, when all uncursed humans have a piece of the Dark Soul. The thematic elements of the curse, such as resting by fire to regenerate, drinking estus (liquid fire) to heal while on the go, crumbling into ashes upon death, etc. make it clear that the darksign curse is a part of the First Flame even if its never explicitly explained.

Yup, makes sense. It means humanity would be lost in the Age of Darkness and everybody would be hollow (an "Age of Hollows").

No, that's wrong. Humanity is the one lord soul that would not be lost in the Age of Darkness. All the other lord souls are burned in the lordvessel. That's why it's called the Age of Darkness: the Dark Soul is the last soul standing, the victorious one. Which means humanity. The whole plot of the game is sort of the culmination of the struggle between the lord souls, even if the original owners are all dead and gone. The ultimate fact of the matter is that, regardless of how many rekindle the First Flame, ultimately it will still die out, and the Age of Darkness will come. A reversion to the Age of Ancients is impossible already. The dragons, the symbol of that age, are almost all dead. The world is no longer just grey twilight everywhere. The process of change is not something that can be stopped, once set in motion. The First Flame introduced disparity, but even if it dies out, the disparity will not just vanish.

You might ask why Gwyn designed the door to the Kiln of the First Flame so that it can only be opened by burning the souls of his greatest allies and two pieces of his own soul. Clearly he was a total douchebag.

 

[Silva]

Random your theory makes sense, because of two things:

1. the intro says the ancient age was "unformed, surrounded in fog", making it sound like chaos state that precedes the creation of order/the world in most real world mythologies.

2. Pygmy soul (humanity) could be called the Dark soul, which is the direct opposite of the Light soul (Gwin). So it makes sense that the Age of Darkness = Age of Humanity = Age of (sons of) Pygmy.

But what about the other souls ? Life (Izalith) and Death (Nito), what happen to them with the die of the Flame ? Do they vanish together with Light (Gwin) too ?

On another topic, that Giant Drake that attacks the bridge on Undead Burg in DS1 is not a true ancient dragon, is it ? Its like a wyvern or some other descendant species right ?

 

[Murk]

Wyvern. Not a proper "dragon". It's official name is the Hellkite Wyvern if I'm not mistaken.

 

[Silva]

Yup, that makes sense.

Another question: Is the sunlight really vanishing because the Fire is dwindling, or because Gwin sacrificed himself to try to kindle the flame and lost its power of sunlight (turning into the "Lord of Cinder" in the process) ? If its the first option, then it means all souls power should also vanish with the flame dwindling (this includes Pygmy Dark Soul, and would lead one to believe that the Age of Darkness is the Age of Hollows), but if its the second option, then it means the 4 great souls power are unrelated to the dwindling of the Fire, thus the Dark Soul (humanity) would continue to exist (and the Age of Darkness would be the Age of Humanity).

 

[Murk]

Well, the sunlight vanishing is really only for Anor Londo. The other areas all have sunlight. It could be because the sun deities left and the only deity now is Gwyndolyn (darksun, aka moon) hence the constant night. I also think that the sun vanishing is just themeing to imply that the old world of glory is over. That is, I don't think it's a major plot point but just a neat tie-in.

Afterall, the sun god is actually a god of lightning. Which if we assume that the people's understanding of science and nature is fitting for their setting then they don't realize the sun is a ball of gas and believe it to be "light" as opposed to fire. If it was fire, the witch of Izalith is more of a "sun" goddess than Gwyn.

 

[Silva]

Mikayel , if you watch the intro again at 3:25, it says "Even now there are only embers, and men sees not light but only endless nights". Also, notice how the sky looks like an eternal twilight, like the very sun is fading. Unless the intro is being metaphorig about the endless nights, I believe the sunlight is slowly vanishing in the whole world, not only Lordran.

About who is who, I heard somewhere Izalith has the soul of Life (which opposes Nito and his soul of Death). This makes sense if you undestand Izalith powers that manipulate fire could be seen as "giving life to flames" /animating flames. Also, he has his 7 daughters, is called the "Godmother" by the swamp pyromancer Laurentius, which goes on to say the passing of the Pyromancer flame creates bonds between people, and when you pass your flame to another person youre in fact giving part of yourself to him/her. And last but not least, his experiment in creating a new Flame is totally related to life-creation (which failed and resulted in the creation of the twisted beings we call demons).

*Edit*: this video about Izalith hints this.

 

[Murk]

That part of the theming definitely adds up; I based my idea that "the sun is around" based on in-game scenery. Solaire staring at the sun, the burg being lit up and all that. I suppose that could be from a *dying* sun but I donno. I guess I never took the "sun is going away" thing literally.

 

[Cowboy Moment]

Random, if you actually need Humanity to feed the First Flame, and that's what the curse does, then what does "linking the fire" mean, and how does it help? Presumably, linking requires a very powerful person (with a powerful soul), and that it causes the First Flame to feed on that soul in some respect (as implied by the description of Gwyn's soul), but then why do you need humanity? Why not have bonfires eat your souls away upon death, if souls suffice?

In DaS2, Emerald Herald explains that linking the fire causes a kind of redistribution of the chosen's power, where all of their souls "flourish back into the world". Which explains some of the stuff in that game, but still doesn't explain how this helps the Flame itself.

 

[Random]

Random, if you actually need Humanity to feed the First Flame, and that's what the curse does, then what does "linking the fire" mean, and how does it help? Presumably, linking requires a very powerful person (with a powerful soul), and that it causes the First Flame to feed on that soul in some respect (as implied by the description of Gwyn's soul), but then why do you need humanity? Why not have bonfires eat your souls away upon death, if souls suffice?

In DaS2, Emerald Herald explains that linking the fire causes a kind of redistribution of the chosen's power, where all of their souls "flourish back into the world". Which explains some of the stuff in that game, but still doesn't explain how this helps the Flame itself.

That's a good question. I don't have a good answer for you. I guess the issue is that lesser bonfires can be kindled, but their kindling doesn't transfer to all the others because they're connected to the core flame, not each other, and if the core flame goes out, they go out for good too. That's why rekindling the embers in the Kiln is vital, and by doing so you return the network of flames to its full strength for a while, sort of linking them together again. Humanity is probably just more convenient to burn in a bonfire because it's not something that you can use to strengthen your own soul (even if that's mostly gameplay mechanics), and probably has the best pound for pound kindling potential since it's a piece of a lord soul. Who knows how many regular souls you'd have to burn to get the same effect?

The additional fluff in DaS2 isn't helpful at all, of course, and only makes it more confusing. I can theorize, though. Maybe the First Flame is a bit of a literal manifestation of change, and by using the First Flame to spread your souls around the world you can induce great change that revitalizes the flame. This is somewhat supported by the notable stagnation of the world that takes place in each game before you arrive to fix it, but it's not really supported by any hard evidence and I don't think I believe it myself. The cyclical nature of the world isn't true change, so unless there's an arbitrary limit for change that the first flame works within, the theory doesn't really hold up.

 

[Murk]

Dark magic in DS1 mentions that it is "weighty" or "heavy" because of it's relation to humanity; and so it could be that humanity is a denser "fuel" than souls.

 

[Random]

Well that settles it then. Humanity is oil, confirmed. IT'S ONE BIG METAPHOR FOR THE MIDDLE EAST! AND THE CHOSEN UNDEAD IS AMERICA!

 

[toro]

Well that settles it then. Humanity is oil, confirmed. IT'S ONE BIG METAPHOR FOR THE MIDDLE EAST! AND THE CHOSEN UNDEAD IS AMERICA!

And Capra demon is representing Putin.