Editorial Damien Foletto talks about games at GameBanshee

[triCritical]

I guess it all depends on how one person defines a CRPG? I mean one way of going through this would be defining some rules that determine what you thing makes a good CRPG. And depending on much in common a particular title has in common with those rules would determine if its a CRPG. I was shocked to hear that some people from this site don't consider ToEE, or Wiz8 CRPG's, but I guess we are all entitled to their own opinions.

Here are some of my rules.

1) The character that is being played is no way affected by the physical limitations of the character playing the game or the interface at which the character is being played through.

In other words, I am not worse in combat because I can only bench press 180 lbs, or because I can't click fast enough. Same things goes for intelligence and all other abilties and skills.

2) A player should not be a manager, instead the mind being the physical body of the character.

Hence, the more control over the character the better. Tell them where to walk, and how to walk. In other words, no fucking and queue's while the character does things the way Bio programmers hand intended him to do it.

3) There should be a great deal of choice in how the character chooses to progress through the game, and in how to create a character.

Basically non-linearity and character freedom all the way. None of this training crap, the more I swing the better I get. The reason is that this in itself can be argued a limitation of the interface. I kill, or let live who I want to let live.

These, IMO, are the most important rules for me on whether or not something feels like a good CRPG. Obviously, I have yet to play too many CRPG's that realy fit under all three rules. One of the reason I love Fallout so much.

 

[taks]

unfortunately, tricrit, the number one way in which a player's real abilities will affect the game he's playing is through intelligence (or lack thereof). while i agree in the ideal, as a practical matter only those with a shade of above average intelligence (or better) will have the necessary faculties to actually finish a good crpg.

mark

 

[triCritical]

unfortunately, tricrit, the number one way in which a player's real abilities will affect the game he's playing is through intelligence (or lack thereof). while i agree in the ideal, as a practical matter only those with a shade of above average intelligence (or better) will have the necessary faculties to actually finish a good crpg.

mark

I couldn't disagree more. :D

Intelligence in Fallout determined how many dialogue choices you got. Without intelligence, you would have never got the chance to make a smart response. Furthermore, what about all those stupid puzzles there were in KotOR. It would have been nice if I could have said, "hey my character has an 18 intelligence, he knows how to solve the puzzle."

Furthemore, tactics does not equate to intelligence. Intelligent people are not more inherently tactical then dumb people. Otherwise, we would send our scientist, nobel laureates and engineers to war instead of the marines and officers. I would argue that intelligence might apply to an experience bonus because an intelligent person is more likely to learn from mistakes, or how to improve in battle, but nothing more then that.

Basically I don't see where a persons intelligence even should come into this. Considering that I have two degrees, awards in theoretical physics, graduated Magna Cum Laude and was reading a walkthrough written by a 14 year old on how to do better in Jagged Alliance 2.

Bottomline, intelligence needs to be defined within the respect of the game. Those who know more about the game will probably to better despite their overall aptitude. I would say that the most intelligent thing I do in games is go left. Why? Because most developers think people will go right. And while you may think I am insane for saying that, I say games are easer for me because I go left!

 

[Diogo Ribeiro]

I would say that the most intelligent thing I do in games is go left. Why? Because most developers think people will go right. And while you may think I am insane for saying that, I say game are easer for me because I go left!

:shock:

*backs away as quickly as possible*

 

[taks]

unfortunately, tricrit, the number one way in which a player's real abilities will affect the game he's playing is through intelligence (or lack thereof). while i agree in the ideal, as a practical matter only those with a shade of above average intelligence (or better) will have the necessary faculties to actually finish a good crpg.

mark

I couldn't disagree more. :D

Intelligence in Fallout determined how many dialogue choices you got. Without intelligence, you would have never got the chance to make a smart response. Furthermore, what about all those stupid puzzles there were in KotOR. It would have been nice if I could have said, "hey my character has an 18 intelligence, he knows how to solve the puzzle."

Furthemore, tactics does not equate to intelligence. Intelligent people are not more inherently tactical then dumb people. Otherwise, we would send our scientist, nobel laureates and engineers to war instead of the marines and officers. I would argue that intelligence might apply to an experience bonus because an intelligent person is more likely to learn from mistakes, or how to improve in battle, but nothing more then that.

Basically I don't see where a persons intelligence even should come into this. Considering that I have two degrees, awards in theoretical physics, graduated Magna Cum Laude and was reading a walkthrough written by a 14 year old on how to do better in Jagged Alliance 2.

Bottomline, intelligence needs to be defined within the respect of the game. Those who know more about the game will probably to better despite their overall aptitude. I would say that the most intelligent thing I do in games is go left. Why? Because most developers think people will go right. And while you may think I am insane for saying that, I say games are easer for me because I go left!

nah... you really do need to be halfway smart. your example of the "hey, my character has an 18 intelligence, i should be able to solve that" is the perfect case. w/o your OWN intelligence, you wouldn't even know that. plus, you need a bit of intelligence to decide that you should go left instead of randomly wandering around. w/o a bit of a brain, you'd never figure out how to build your character, etc, etc...

now, in no way do i think we need to be walking textbooks of oozing knowledge... just a bit 'o wits and the ability to draw reasonable conclusions based on incomplete information.

run, run role-player... tricrit is turning left and he will catch you eventually!

mark

 

[triCritical]

OK, monkey's should not play CRPG's. But I don't think wits really help you build a character. I have been to many DnD forums and scene a lot half-wits build some pretty uber-characters, while all a normal person might want to do is a build the kind of character they want to play. Again building a character that can help someone over-achieve is not a think of genius but just knowledge within the system.

"hey, my character has an 18 intelligence, i should be able to solve that" is the perfect case. w/o your OWN intelligence, you wouldn't even know that

I actually agree with you. That is why I think KotOR is not that good of a game. A game should just handle these things for you and then pat you on the back making your imaginary character feel good inside. But it kills the immersion when you are playing a smart character and you keep in getting killed because you are too stupid to figure the most basic of MENSA puzzles.

 

[Anonymous]

w/o a bit of a brain, you'd never figure out how to build your character, etc, etc...

So I bet you never got past the Strength score in Fallout.

zingaling

 

[Psilon]

I actually agree with you. That is why I think KotOR is not that good of a game. A game should just handle these things for you and then pat you on the back making your imaginary character feel good inside. But it kills the immersion when you are playing a smart character and you keep in getting killed because you are too stupid to figure the most basic of MENSA puzzles.

While we're on the subject of high INT/WIS scores preempting moronic puzzles, I'd like to see something like the GURPS advantage "Common Sense". No, I don't mean quicksaving every minute.

Common Sense (10 points)
Any time you start to do something that the GM feels is STUPID, he rolls against your IQ. A successful roll means he must warn you, "Hadn't you better think about that?" This advantage allows an impulsive player to take the part of a thoughtful character.

 

[triCritical]

I actually agree with you. That is why I think KotOR is not that good of a game. A game should just handle these things for you and then pat you on the back making your imaginary character feel good inside. But it kills the immersion when you are playing a smart character and you keep in getting killed because you are too stupid to figure the most basic of MENSA puzzles.

While we're on the subject of high INT/WIS scores preempting moronic puzzles, I'd like to see something like the GURPS advantage "Common Sense". No, I don't mean quicksaving every minute.

Common Sense (10 points)
Any time you start to do something that the GM feels is STUPID, he rolls against your IQ. A successful roll means he must warn you, "Hadn't you better think about that?" This advantage allows an impulsive player to take the part of a thoughtful character.

That is a good idea. A good example would be something like the room in Fallout where the BoS prisoner is. Walking into a room like that could mean certain death. However, if the game were to warn you, and give you a more common sense outlook on the situation, you might be allowed a more fletch approach. Or at least you come way knowing to tread carefully.

I think it is very easy to keep a players brain in check. The simplest way is just limit what the player can do based off their brain abilities. It doesn't get any simpler that.

Of course, no one can keep me from going left. :twisted:

 

[taks]

w/o a bit of a brain, you'd never figure out how to build your character, etc, etc...

So I bet you never got past the Strength score in Fallout.

zingaling

uh, i never played fallout. sorry, post apoc has never been my bag... i keep meaning to try it out, but just never get around to it.

mark

 

[taks]

But it kills the immersion when you are playing a smart character and you keep in getting killed because you are too stupid to figure the most basic of MENSA puzzles.

conversely, i hate playing dumb fighters just for that reason. why on earth should my 8 INT basher be able to solve the damn MENSA puzzles... of course, you can always rationalize by putting at least one uber smart character in the bunch, but my own ego won't ever allow that character to be anybody other than, well, me. hence, no stupid fighter personas... arrrrggh.

mark

 

[triCritical]

But it kills the immersion when you are playing a smart character and you keep in getting killed because you are too stupid to figure the most basic of MENSA puzzles.

conversely, i hate playing dumb fighters just for that reason. why on earth should my 8 INT basher be able to solve the damn MENSA puzzles... of course, you can always rationalize by putting at least one uber smart character in the bunch, but my own ego won't ever allow that character to be anybody other than, well, me. hence, no stupid fighter personas... arrrrggh.

mark

Well in a perfect CRPG a dumb character will never be able to figure out a MENSA puzzle. The game would say something that this puzzle looks so foreign to your character that de doesn't even know its a puzzle. And another sol'n should be available like combat. I think Fallout 2 had the best option for dumb characters. If your character were was dumb enough they would get a free ride into the Vault CIty vault as a janitor. I thought that was kind of cool. Otherwise it was a pretty substantial amount of fedexing to get into the vault. Given that I don't think the character would be smart enough to get in the other way.

BTW, I never played a dumb character in FO2 I just heard about this, so if i said something wrong don't hurt me.

 

[Saint_Proverbius]

Well in a perfect CRPG a dumb character will never be able to figure out a MENSA puzzle. The game would say something that this puzzle looks so foreign to your character that de doesn't even know its a puzzle.

This is precisely why all CRPGs need "dumb dialogue". Dumb dialogue isn't just about humor(Sorry, BioWare, you missed the point on this one with NWN BIG TIME!), it's about making the game know a character isn't smart enouigh to do some things, so they'll have to do things differently. That is to say an NPC should never give out the lines of dialogue to the idiot character expecting him to solve the SUPAR CRYPTIK PUZZLE O DOOM to get somewhere but rather provide an alternative route to get to that same or similar somewhere.
.