Company News D&D has a 'future'

[Vault Dweller]

Atari, above all else, is a much more successful publisher than interplay to the "dollar for every time" comment doesn't necessarily apply the same way.

Like you said, it's a business decision, so if non-RPG DnD games sell better, then Atari wouldn't have a reason to invest in DnD RPGs, hence my comment.

just because D&D is historically an RPG game doesn't mean there isn't a market for other genres. in this case, it is "just business" and these guys are in the market to make money for their shareholders... whether we like it or not.

I get it, but do you really think that DnD would do well in other genres? Once again, it's something that has a value only for rpg fans, any dnd rts would have to compete very hard with tons of good rts with much better developed settings then those of dnd. Overall, it just doesn't seem like a good decision to me.

bottom line, the only way we can ever hope to get a good CRPG is if somebody develops one. the best bet is somebody with money, which atari has. maybe it takes 3 or 4 tries to get it right... i'll count toee as failure #1.

I doubt that Atari is interested in developing a good RPG, but I hope that you're right. As for ToEE, ToEE, the epic game sucked; ToEE, the dungeon crawler rocked; but then again, we won't convince each other, so let's leave it as that

 

[Sheriff05]

i disagree. the problem with a LARGE TB game is time. if toee were RT w/pause, it would have taken only a few hours to finish. likewise, if BG2 were TB, it would have taken 500 hours to finish. TB is sloooooow. an undeniable fact. RT w/pause is fast. another undeniable fact. developers are in the business to make money so a 500 hour game is hardly a good bet just from a sales standpoint. the same goes for simple things like light bulbs... sure they can make 'em last 20 years, but then how do they make money as a business when nobody needs new bulbs?

Funny, wasn't it some genius at Bioware who proclaimed that RT w/pause with just like
TB?? and you're claiming 498 hour gameplay difference between ToEE and BG2 based on based on repeated space bar tapping versus using a good turn based engine?
I'll assume you're exaggerating, In reality of course TB is slower but it doesn't have to neccessarily slow down the game after D&D is TURN BASED. You're supposed to savor and enjoy the combat, not just plow thru through with a bunch of endless mouse clicking.
I guess it really depends on what you like better Combat or Story, apparently it's like reinventing the wheel to get both in one game as lot of us are still waiting.
I am currently playing Divine Divinity as an example, interesting story, shitty real time combat.

 

[DIPthong]

I guess it really depends on what you like better Combat or Story, apparently it's like reinventing the wheel to get both in one game as lot of us are still waiting.
I am currently playing Divine Divinity as an example, interesting story, shitty real time combat.

Have you played the Beyond Divinity demo yet? Combat is even worse.

 

[Sheriff05]

Have you played the Beyond Divinity demo yet? Combat is even worse.

yeah, more of the same..I like the idea of using the right mouse button to implement different skills and/or attacks in a real time game but in DD it's awkward as all hell.
I actually liked the Sacred demo's implementation of this much better, as it adds more variety to combat with the combos and such I guess we will see soon enough.

 

[taks]

Funny, wasn't it some genius at Bioware who proclaimed that RT w/pause with just like
TB?? and you're claiming 498 hour gameplay difference between ToEE and BG2 based on based on repeated space bar tapping versus using a good turn based engine?
I'll assume you're exaggerating, In reality of course TB is slower but it doesn't have to neccessarily slow down the game after D&D is TURN BASED. You're supposed to savor and enjoy the combat, not just plow thru through with a bunch of endless mouse clicking.
I guess it really depends on what you like better Combat or Story, apparently it's like reinventing the wheel to get both in one game as lot of us are still waiting.
I am currently playing Divine Divinity as an example, interesting story, shitty real time combat.

first of all, i never proclaimed either was better over the other, btw... just to make that clear. i wasn't a fan of the DD combat, either... just to make that clear as well

oh, and the 500 hour difference is probably close... i took about 150 hours the first time through and did not use the "pause after each round" option (still don't... too boring). 3x that puts you at 450 hours and TB combat could have easily done that to bg2 given my style of play (i scour EVERY corner of the game). toee is so story light that w/o TB combat, a reasonable estimate is probably actually 5 hours to complete (some have done it that quick already).

the RT w/pause games are very automatic, even if you set them to pause after each round. pretty much the only characters you need to control are the spellcasters. however, the TB games REQUIRE that every character decide his action in each round. given that they really did go to lengths (with toee) to offer as much of the pnp rules as possible, that takes quite a bit of time even for fighter types. pausing every round in the bg type games is still relatively quick. there just weren't many options available for any BUT the spellcasters... sooo, just let 'em go and act their purpose: meat shields.

i'm not saying you can't have your cake and eat it too... it's just that there's a balancing point that couldn't be met with bg2 and certainly wasn't met with toee. i think if you have enough story, combat can certainly be secondary and vice versa... hotu, btw, has a relatively cool story (compared with the recent glut of shit) with relatively cool combat ala FPS style games (my opinion). i had my dude great cleave through about a dozen zombies last night and loved it. if toee had ANY story whatsoever worth reading through the dialog trees, i would have certainly overlooked the bugs.

taks

 

[Nightjed]

an example of a good d&d games that arent rpg : alquadim (it was a hack&slash dungeon crawler with a few puzzles and some light story)

as for new d&d rpgs i think the main problem is their lack of "personality", specially nwn and toee. Torment was great because it had a strong personality, you got to know your party, strange places, creatures, and your own nameless dude(which was your reason to fight), while nwn and toee worlds/characters/reasons-to-fight were generic,weak and boring.

 

[taks]

i think HotU solved the problem of genericness, nightjed... at least so far. i'm pretty into the story AND i like the henchmen. they still do their own thing but i have just enough control to make it MY party, rather than me among a bunch of henchmen.

taks

 

[DemonKing]

Back in the day before computer games were made and you were just a gleam in the mailmans eye (Those modules were published between 78-81)
D&D was played with this guy called a "Dungeon Master", it was his job to flesh out the story of these modules which were nothing more than a series of encounters tied together with a *loose* skeleton of a story. Nobody complained about it then because the focus of the story was given directly to the players, Gygax and company provided you with the rules and the tools.

Well the mailman must have been a time-travelling one, because I played those modules when they were first released (I'm a sad old nerd, I admit). Now I have to admit that the Gygax authored 1st ed. PH, DMG & MM were actually remarkably literate pieces of work - which was why it was a shame his early modules were so bare bone...particulalry since some of the other early modules were quite heavy on the description/backstory (I remember Mike Carr's B1 "In Search of the Unknown", where every room came alive with the wonderful descriptions in the text.)

Saying this though, Gygax's modules were relatively fun when we were 10 because all we needed to know then when we opened a dungeon door was "You see 5 orcs. They charge.". D&D *was* hack and slash to us then...but with the benefits of hindsight his module writing technique wasn't too much different from my first fledgling efforts at dungeon design at the time (in fact I copied his "Room 12. 5 Orcs. 20 gp" style precisely!).

Now of course Gygax was the first in an infant industry, but still, there were a number of TSR and Judge's Guild products produced around that time that were noticeably superior to Gygax's module efforts, IMHO.

 

[taks]

remember, too, that D&D in it's early incarnations was nothing more than a tactical combat game adapted from full scale battles to smaller, close-in, type conflicts. the whole "role-playing" aspect really evolved out of that.

taks

 

[Sheriff05]

[
Well the mailman must have been a time-travelling one, because I played those modules when they were first released (I'm a sad old nerd, I admit). Now I have to admit that the Gygax authored 1st ed. PH, DMG & MM were actually remarkably literate pieces of work - which was why it was a shame his early modules were so bare bone...particulalry since some of the other early modules were quite heavy on the description/backstory (I remember Mike Carr's B1 "In Search of the Unknown", where every room came alive with the wonderful descriptions in the text.)

Saying this though, Gygax's modules were relatively fun when we were 10 because all we needed to know then when we opened a dungeon door was "You see 5 orcs. They charge.". D&D *was* hack and slash to us then...but with the benefits of hindsight his module writing technique wasn't too much different from my first fledgling efforts at dungeon design at the time (in fact I copied his "Room 12. 5 Orcs. 20 gp" style precisely!).

Now of course Gygax was the first in an infant industry, but still, there were a number of TSR and Judge's Guild products produced around that time that were noticeably superior to Gygax's module efforts, IMHO.

Well if that's your background great, I can appreciate that but I don't understand the nasty sentiment behind the original statement, when you admit when you were 10 you just *followed his lead*.( I was the same way) You'll remember at the time it was pretty much par for the course and as time went on modules got more detailed in story department. (as you mentioned Judge's Guild, Dragon and other TSR authors)
as for the mailman thing, well, you know how I am :D

 

[Voss]

I think the sentiment is largely because, yes, its excusable when one is 10 years old, and those are the only examples available. But why was Gygax, grown man and game designer, writing modules that a 10 year would find understandable and replicate easily? Lets not forget the target audience originally was college age and up, wargaming grognards doing something somewhat different...

 

[Petey_the_Skid]

Lets not forget the target audience originally was college age and up, wargaming grognards doing something somewhat different...

Exactly why there was no story dude, all those folks wanted to do was kill stuff

Seriously though, you should check out some of Gygax's writings and editorials through out the years. The whole role-playing aspect(as most of us think of it) never really caught with him, from my understanding, he was more of a hack and slash fella who was interested in small scale tactical battles involving wizards and other fantasy aspects. I'd point you at a link but i am much too lazy.

As for the things Atari is hinting at, i would be somewhat interested in a a tactical wargame based on the D&D miniatures rules(Chainmail anyone?). It's hard enough to find a TT group to play with around these parts, I'll never find a miniatures group, that's for sure.

 

[Saint_Proverbius]

i disagree. the problem with a LARGE TB game is time. if toee were RT w/pause, it would have taken only a few hours to finish. likewise, if BG2 were TB, it would have taken 500 hours to finish. TB is sloooooow. an undeniable fact. RT w/pause is fast. another undeniable fact. developers are in the business to make money so a 500 hour game is hardly a good bet just from a sales standpoint. the same goes for simple things like light bulbs... sure they can make 'em last 20 years, but then how do they make money as a business when nobody needs new bulbs?

I doubt it would have taken much longer in turn based. BG has a mandatory six seconds per round. In turn based, it's just as long as the interface working and animation takes per character and monster. If you have a lot of fighters, and they're in position, it's just click, animation, done. Pretty fast. If you're casting a spell, the interface stuff takes longer, but then again, you're going have to pause and do that in BG for each casting anyway, thus making the manditory six seconds longer.

Keep in mind that BG/BG2/IWD/IWD2 all had a maximum of five attacks per round per character as well. Any of the rest were truncated. If we're talking about ToEE, it doesn't have those limits. If you have a reach weapon, cleave, great cleave, and combat reflexes, you can take out scores of little critters each round.

The only thing that really takes longer in turn based are situations where things have to do a bit of travelling.

 

[DemonKing]

Seriously though, you should check out some of Gygax's writings and editorials through out the years. The whole role-playing aspect(as most of us think of it) never really caught with him, from my understanding, he was more of a hack and slash fella who was interested in small scale tactical battles involving wizards and other fantasy aspects.

He's always been a bit whacky...I remember reading the original DMG where he talks about how sparsely loot and magical treasure should be distributed, and then when he writes a module there is so much "phat loot" you would need a small herd of dragons to cart it away.

AtG is a prime example - I think by the time you get to the Fire Giant caves you find one room containing 23 different giant-sized chests all full of loot...

I think most of us "old-time" gamers have moved on from the early Gygax vision of D&D, which is why we don't get too excited about the revamp of old modules like TOEE and AtG. Also, seeing as a lot of people I see posting on message-boards are in the 13-23 year old bracket and probably never played the originals anyway, the market of people who would buy a product based on nostaliga alone is limited, methinks.

 

[Anonymous]

Why not do the Return to the Temple of Elemental Evil? I played it PnP, it's pretty fun. Very large with lots of neat thingies, like half-demon/half-ogre and half-t-rex/half-dragon combos. Dont forget the supar dupar Deck of Many Things.

 

[Voss]

Lets not forget the target audience originally was college age and up, wargaming grognards doing something somewhat different...

Exactly why there was no story dude, all those folks wanted to do was kill stuff

Seriously though, you should check out some of Gygax's writings and editorials through out the years. The whole role-playing aspect(as most of us think of it) never really caught with him, from my understanding, he was more of a hack and slash fella who was interested in small scale tactical battles involving wizards and other fantasy aspects. I'd point you at a link but i am much too lazy.

As for the things Atari is hinting at, i would be somewhat interested in a a tactical wargame based on the D&D miniatures rules(Chainmail anyone?). It's hard enough to find a TT group to play with around these parts, I'll never find a miniatures group, that's for sure.

Oh, I know. I know. The don't knock the munchkin articles when 3.0 came out and wizards dragged him out of the closet again were just sad. He still seems generally puzzled by this 'role playing' that people tacked onto his wargaming rules.

If it is a wargame, I doubt it'll Chainmail since thats well and truly dead. Maybe the skirmish rules (or possibly the mass wargame rules with the new skirmish minis, but ugh) and the new collectible miniatures, port over to computer. After all they did it with Magic, why not with their new toy?

 

[Sheriff05]

I think most of us "old-time" gamers have moved on from the early Gygax vision of D&D, which is why we don't get too excited about the revamp of old modules like TOEE and AtG. Also, seeing as a lot of people I see posting on message-boards are in the 13-23 year old bracket and probably never played the originals anyway, the market of people who would buy a product based on nostaliga alone is limited, methinks.

I think that's where this debate lies, being 14 in 1980 myself, I can remember several tourneys where the best part was watching the way the the tourney module unfolded when run by different DM's. The DM's role has sadly dimished over the years in lieu of pre-package canned stories. CRPG's have just made it worse. Personally seeing the old modules remade with fleshed out new stories was more exciting to me for A) the nostaglia and B) Good premises with hopefully better writing. Unfortunately we have all witnessed that computer programmers aren't necessarily good writers. I'd also add that in my opinion the "roleplaying" apsects of D&D have hijacked the best part of D&D, its combat rules, "roleplaying" is a word that is misused and most often overrated when it comes to D&D.
Now I am not saying I want only a hack-n-slash dungeon crawl, it's the happy medium that seems to be non-existant in CRPG world.

 

[suibhne]

I doubt it would have taken much longer in turn based. BG has a mandatory six seconds per round.

Yes, but that's six seconds per round for your ENTIRE party, as all characters take simultaneous turns (or, uh, rounds). Even assuming some pausing for new orders, inventory access, etc., BG2 combat still works out to be much faster. There were hobgoblin battles in ToEE which, for me, took longer than the climactic battle in ToB.

Given the preponderance of combat in both games, the time delta adds up pretty damn quickly.

 

[DemonKing]

Personally seeing the old modules remade with fleshed out new stories was more exciting to me for A) the nostaglia and B) Good premises with hopefully better writing. Unfortunately we have all witnessed that computer programmers aren't necessarily good writers.

The biggest problem I had with TOEE was that I was alternately either:

(A) Disappointed that I knew exactly what was coming next ("Oh great - Elmo - good thing I know he's not really a drunk but one of the most useful NPCS in town. Now I know better than to take this creepy monk and his buddy 'cause I know they'll betray me" etc etc).

or

(B) Disappointed that things were missing from the remake that were in the original module (I wanted to see the dragons in the elemental nodes, and the room full of funky statues, and the roper etc).

So I guess the poor Troika bods couldn't win either way. That's why I would prefer anyone doing a D&D CRPG in the future to stick to an original design.

I'd also add that in my opinion the "roleplaying" apsects of D&D have hijacked the best part of D&D, its combat rules, "roleplaying" is a word that is misused and most often overrated when it comes to D&D.

Well, while I can remember some truely awesome combat sessions in D&D (we used to have an annual day of gladiator games in our Dark Sun campaign that was legendary - guys broke up with their girlfriends just so they could attend!), I must admit I also have some very fond roleplaying memories as well (like when I captured one of our Dm's favourite NPCs who always seemed to be spying on us and I gave him the option of cutting off one of his own ears as punishment or letting me cut off both instead - the DM actually broke into a sweat he didn't know what to do!!!! :twisted: ).

As you said - a happy medium would be my prefered option these days.

 

[Shevek]

I call bullshit on that one, you've just been hypnotized by BioSpeak. Don't believe the lies. ;-)

i disagree. the problem with a LARGE TB game is time. if toee were RT w/pause, it would have taken only a few hours to finish. likewise, if BG2 were TB, it would have taken 500 hours to finish. TB is sloooooow. an undeniable fact. RT w/pause is fast. another undeniable fact. developers are in the business to make money so a 500 hour game is hardly a good bet just from a sales standpoint. the same goes for simple things like light bulbs... sure they can make 'em last 20 years, but then how do they make money as a business when nobody needs new bulbs?

taks

I actually find that RT+Pause can be pretty slow too, since In all encounters that mean a damn I am constantly mashing the pause button. The idea that TB is so slow that it makes the game last an eternity is just wrong. Last few great true TB RPGs (not counting Arcanum since it was a hybrid system) I've played were FO1, FO2 and Wiz 8 and in none of those titles did I feel the combat dragged the game along.

To be quite honest, I think its kinda sad that gamers nowadays all seem to be suffering from A.D.D..

 

[Diogo Ribeiro]

developers are in the business to make money so a 500 hour game is hardly a good bet just from a sales standpoint.

The fun thing is the BG series is claimed to have 400 hours of gameplay, and its RTWP.

 

[Saint_Proverbius]

Yes, but that's six seconds per round for your ENTIRE party, as all characters take simultaneous turns (or, uh, rounds). Even assuming some pausing for new orders, inventory access, etc., BG2 combat still works out to be much faster. There were hobgoblin battles in ToEE which, for me, took longer than the climactic battle in ToB.

Given the preponderance of combat in both games, the time delta adds up pretty damn quickly.

What if there's a combat animation speed slider, though? You can't really do that in real time with pause at all. You can slow it down and still make it playable, but if time is cranked up to 2x or 4x the animation speed? Just by adding that one little thing, you can make turn based way, way. way faster than real time with pause that has set round timing.

And still, if all your little guys are close to the enemies, and you're micromanaging who they're attacking, turn based is still faster. If you have six characters, and the attack animation is about a half a second or so, that's three spare seconds after your characters attack for the enemy to attack.

 

[Sammael]

What if there's a combat animation speed slider, though? You can't really do that in real time with pause at all. You can slow it down and still make it playable, but if time is cranked up to 2x or 4x the animation speed? Just by adding that one little thing, you can make turn based way, way. way faster than real time with pause that has set round timing.

Yes, if you are willing to accept combat animations that look like shit. I was OK with this in the HoMM series, but I am not sure I'd want that in an RPG.

 

[Saint_Proverbius]

Combat animation speed slider worked great in Fallout.

 

[taks]

developers are in the business to make money so a 500 hour game is hardly a good bet just from a sales standpoint.

The fun thing is the BG series is claimed to have 400 hours of gameplay, and its RTWP.

noooo... it claimed 80 to 100 hours with a single play through, 400 with replayability. i've gotten over 1000 by now, btw. BG2 WAS too long, IMO. the first time through i got mashed with so much to do i couldn't keep track. they could have backed that game off and split it into two games and made out like bandits with a BG3 to boot rather than the half-assed conclusion with ToB...

taks