Crpgs with good Ironman modes.

[Trip81]

Of course its your fault. Dont play like a moron.

This doesnt help. Maybe you could tell how to play combat in this game? All the lets plays i watched the guys play exactly like me. I would be grateful if you could show me the way to enjoy this style of dungeoncrawler.

 

[treborSux]

Not sure it counts as a good example, but who played Telengard? Sounds like the ultimate existential crpg. No objectives or goals, you just fight shit and collect loot, 50 floors with 2 million rooms, and dying means you die for good.

 

[Gnidrologist]

Every time i hear this line i think:
"Just imagine better story and play with that" or "don't use x then"

Are you stupid? ''Ironman mode'' adds nothing else than preventing you to save, when you want. You can do that on your own without this ''mechanic'' implemented. It's basically an artificial shackle for weak willed.

saving also is part of design unfortunetely.
Play Stalker game without f5 and f9. Whole game was build around that model.

No game has saving as ''part of the design'' unless you choose so. Stop projecting your insecurities.

Its not simple like that. Yes there are games you can play like that but there are not many. A game has to be designed and adjusted to be played like that. For an example think of an ironman playthrough without saving in a game where an encounter could onehit you. This doesnt sounds like fun does it? On of the best ironman like games i know is dark/demon souls. When you die its your fault. Simple as that. This in a turn based rpg. And that is exactly what i search.but i ended dragons dogma like that. No saves outside of town. No healet no healitems. Hard mode. What a blast to play like that.

This makes no sense. You're basically saying that for game to be viable in ironman it should be easy enough to walk through it without ever dying. Much ironman. So hardcore. Wow.

Besides, one can come across one shot encounters in games with dedicated ironman mode too. How about those geo/neo/whatever mancers with bunch of summoned elementals in Wizardry8? They are fuckng devastating even with high level parties and are random spawns. Or how about ''you were critically hit for 3643426 damage in the groin'' in Fallouts? Or encountering elites in JA2 early on? I didn't know you are not supposed to die on ironman. In fact, i thought it's one thing you constantly do and there's why it's a challenge to win the game in it. (i don't ironaman personally)

 

[Damned Registrations]

The fallouts are a terrible example of games to ironman. The point of ironmanning a game is to test your skill, not your luck. Patience lies somewhere between the two (I've no stomach for tedium myself) but something as random as fallout crits is just retarded.

Something like Nethack is ideal in my book; in theory your odds of ascending a character are great if you play well without any conducts. In practice, you're going to fuck up a lot of shit and simply be too impatient to do various things that would make life easier.

Note that it's losing the game arbitrarily that is total bullshit for an ironman playthrough. Losing characters is fair game, if it's built around it so you can get replacements. X-Com is fantastic to ironman for example.

 

[Trip81]

Are you stupid? ''Ironman mode'' adds nothing else than preventing you to save, when you want. You can do that on your own without this ''mechanic'' implemented. It's basically an artificial shackle for weak willed.

No game has saving as ''part of the design'' unless you choose so. Stop projecting your insecurities.


This makes no sense. You're basically saying that for game to be viable in ironman it should be easy enough to walk through it without ever dying. Much ironman. So hardcore. Wow.

Besides, one can come across one shot encounters in games with dedicated ironman mode too. How about those geo/neo/whatever mancers with bunch of summoned elementals in Wizardry8? They are fuckng devastating even with high level parties and are random spawns. Or how about ''you were critically hit for 3643426 damage in the groin'' in Fallouts? Or encountering elites in JA2 early on? I didn't know you are not supposed to die on ironman. In fact, i thought it's one thing you constantly do and there's why it's a challenge to win the game in it. (i don't ironaman personally)

Ironman has nothing to do with difficulty. i dont know why you think so. the only reason in my eyes somebody play ironmand is because he want to add this part off there is no way back. every turn Counts. a dungeon becomes dangerous. every decision is vital and has weight. i dont want to Play for example 20 hours in some game and some Kind of Encounter is so unbalanced that he can crit me away. For example play on of the " Das Schwarze Auge " Games with normal save and reload like you would Play a rpg. this game isnt really hard. now take the saving away you know what this game will kick your ass and it will become one of the hardest games in your live.
i don't know why you are so rude defending your Position of the ironman modeand calling someone stupid but dont ironman yourself. in my eyes this make no sense at all. all the "Anger" for what? in my first post in this thread i had an example what i dont want in ironman and why for example Ufo Enemy Unknown has a bad Ironmade mode. which you can add in every difficulty you want.

 

[Lilura]

Even if you reached Enclavers and specced for Lifegiver (solo vet no-brainer), then yeah, you're probably gonna get crit bypassed and melted down anyway...

The ideal for me is ToEE and JA2 - and Diablo 2, which I Ironmanned with barb and sorc - with no farming

 

[Incantatar]

Good point. I spend in Ironman Prophecy of Pendor mod more time than probably any other game.

Sometimes you click somewhere on the map and the party walks in the fucking opposite direction - hello 1000 men army. Sometimes the respective army walks through a city and is almost invisible - hello you're dead again. Ok, you won't be game over but it really is frustrating.

 

[Perkel]

Sometimes you click somewhere on the map and the party walks in the fucking opposite direction - hello 1000 men army. Sometimes the respective army walks through a city and is almost invisible - hello you're dead again. Ok, you won't be game over but it really is frustrating.

In PoP if anything happens like army ambushing you then you have ability to leave some troops and run away from battle

 

[Perkel]

Are you stupid? ''Ironman mode'' adds nothing else than preventing you to save, when you want. You can do that on your own without this ''mechanic'' implemented. It's basically an artificial shackle for weak willed.

No game has saving as ''part of the design'' unless you choose so. Stop projecting your insecurities.


This makes no sense. You're basically saying that for game to be viable in ironman it should be easy enough to walk through it without ever dying. Much ironman. So hardcore. Wow.

There is difference between ironman sticker and ironman game
Saves are part of the design there is no question about it. Game will play differenently if you will be able to save in city vs saving anywhere or at all this changes gameplay a lot.
Yes game created with ironman in mind will be different than normal game.

Look at Neo Scavenger. If that game would have f5 or normal save system it wouldn't be GOTY for many people precisely because you would be able to simply save scum and get past game in 15 minutes.

Due to game being designed for ironman as core of game you have ton of options like running away, hiding, distracting, hiding tracks hell even skill system would be useless if that game has saves or f5f9

 

[Gnidrologist]

i don't know why you are so rude defending your Position of the ironman modeand calling someone stupid but dont ironman yourself. in my eyes this make no sense at all. all the "Anger" for what?

I was rude to Perkel's remark

Every time i hear this line i think:
"Just imagine better story and play with that" or "don't use x then"

, which was retarded
Not your post.
I still don't think that that your requirement makes much sense because i don't know a single game, except for those who are utter cakewalk, that doesn't have encounters that can outright obliterate you no matter how ''careful'' you think you are. One thing is to have meta knowledge of every possible location and enemy there, so you take a gamist approach and only take safe choices like going there with appropriate level and that certain item/skill, when you acquire it, but it still wont save against random encounters, where someone throws a death cloud on your underleveled party. Prepare to die. A lot.

 

[Gnidrologist]

Look at Neo Scavenger. If that game would have f5 or normal save system it wouldn't be GOTY for many people precisely because you would be able to simply save scum and get past game in 15 minutes.

Due to game being designed for ironman as core of game you have ton of options like running away, hiding, distracting, hiding tracks hell even skill system would be useless if that game has saves or f5f9

Yes, NeoScav is designed for ironman only. That disqualifies games that has it as one of the features. Like aforementioned Wiz8 or even Jagged Alliance 2. It's very easy to die there from freak accidents and no amount of genius tactics will save your ass, unless you camp/run away all the time and only choose super safe and boring routes or cheesy tactics, not to mention, have perfect meta knowledge of the map and possible booby traps/ambushes etc. Ja2 at least lets you reasemble the party from new mercs, but thinking that careful tactics must always save your ass is plane wrong. At least for games that have any criticals at all or can have random ambushes from nowhere.

As i said, it's normal to die an restart a lot in such mode, but apparently Trip81 isn't cool with that.

 

[Sykar]

Yes, NeoScav is designed for ironman only. That disqualifies games that has it as one of the features. Like aforementioned Wiz8 or even Jagged Alliance 2. It's very easy to die there from freak accidents and no amount of genius tactics will save your ass, unless you camp/run away all the time and only choose super safe and boring routes or cheesy tactics, not to mention, have perfect meta knowledge of the map and possible booby traps/ambushes etc. Ja2 at least lets you reasemble the party from new mercs, but thinking that careful tactics must always save your ass is plane wrong. At least for games that have any criticals at all or can have random ambushes from nowhere.

As i said, it's normal to die an restart a lot in such mode, but apparently Trip81 isn't cool with that.

I remember dying to seemingly perfect pistol snipers while being crouched behind a tree over 30 meters away on occasion.

 

[Trip81]

I was rude to Perkel's remark

, which was retarded
Not your post.
I still don't think that that your requirement makes much sense because i don't know a single game, except for those who are utter cakewalk, that doesn't have encounters that can outright obliterate you no matter how ''careful'' you think you are.

Dont know what cakewalk means in your eyes. for example i platined Demon/Dark Souls. This doesnt mean WOW im sooooo skilled or some shit like that. i dont know how to say otherwise how "skilled" i am as a player you know what i mean?
what i want to say is i played through the first part of Das Schwarze Auge in "Selfmade" Ironman some weeks ago. Dont exactly remember how this games is called outside of germany. it was soooooo hard to win this game and so satisfying.i was cautios and my backpacks were full of potions,tools and 2nd Weapons and stuff like that. it was possible and it was awesome.
i tried selfmade ironman on many games but the most of emm just doesnt work. easy games unbalanced like shit...

 

[Trip81]

so i played some hours of Wizardry 1. Jesus Christ this game is kicking my ass. I was sure i had a very strong group. Magicians who could destroy mountains with there eyes. 3 Fighters wo were mad of steel. A Priest who was GOD himself and then i met some sort of slime who poisened me. Half of my group died. reviving them?forget it. cant afford it not even close. so im sitting here and my brain is working how i get out of that mess. thx for this games this is so freaking hard and satisfying.

 

[Ellef]

How about roguelikes, where everything is Ironman mode?

 

[cruelio]

Temple of Elemental Evil. Can you beat it without experiencing a game ruining bug or getting your save corrupted? A true iron man test.

 

[octavius]

so i played some hours of Wizardry 1. Jesus Christ this game is kicking my ass. I was sure i had a very strong group. Magicians who could destroy mountains with there eyes. 3 Fighters wo were mad of steel. A Priest who was GOD himself and then i met some sort of slime who poisened me. Half of my group died. reviving them?forget it. cant afford it not even close. so im sitting here and my brain is working how i get out of that mess. thx for this games this is so freaking hard and satisfying.

Some tips:

Make sure your characters get at least 15 Bonus Points.

Max out Vitality for fighter types since more HP makes you harder to kill and high Vitality improves chances of resurrection. Thief needs max Agility and Luck for the chests, while Priests and Wizards need max Piety and Intelligence respectively to get all the spells ASAP. But even they should have as high Vitality as possible. You only get bonuses from stats in the 15-18 range, though. 4 is just a mediocre as 14.

Head back to the Castle frequently in the beginning.

If playing cautiously it should be possible to reach Werdna's lair without a single party death.

 

[Trip81]

Some tips:

Make sure your characters get at least 15 Bonus Points.

Max out Vitality for fighter types since more HP makes you harder to kill and high Vitality improves chances of resurrection. Thief needs max Agility and Luck for the chests, while Priests and Wizards need max Piety and Intelligence to get all the spells ASAP. But even they should have as high Vitality as possible. You only get bonuses from stats in the 15-18 range, though. 4 is just a mediocre as 14.

Head back to the Castle frequently in the beginning.

If playing cautiously it should be possible to reach Werdna's lair without a single party death.

thx for the tip. but i want to play this game exactly like that. if i have bad luck? i will find a way around that. i had to leave the dead party members behind and made new ones. died because of poison? not this time Mr Slime. my backpack was full of potion of neutralization and now my priest can cast antidote and my new magician fireexplosion (dont remember the name right now). till the next obstacle!!! i love it

 

[Trip81]

How about roguelikes, where everything is Ironman mode?

no thx i dont like roguelikes. always i play em i dont like these random maps or feel rushed. maybe i will play this new one. dont know its name. darkest dungeon or something like that.

 

[Trip81]

Temple of Elemental Evil. Can you beat it without experiencing a game ruining bug or getting your save corrupted? A true iron man test.

i tried it many years ago. i couldn't end the first quest because of a bug. i mean the FIRST quest. god i was so angry at the developers back than. i would love to play this game without bugs. i really would

 

[cruelio]

i tried it many years ago. i couldn't end the first quest because of a bug. i mean the FIRST quest. god i was so angry at the developers back than. i would love to play this game without bugs. i really would

The Circle of Eight mod pack fixes it to as good as it can get and works with the GoG version. Save corrupt bug still exists though so you need to keep multiple saves.

 

[Trip81]

i tried it many years ago. i couldn't end the first quest because of a bug. i mean the FIRST quest. god i was so angry at the developers back than. i would love to play this game without bugs. i really would

The Circle of Eight mod pack fixes it to as good as it can get and works with the GoG version. Save corrupt bug still exists though so you need to keep multiple saves.

thx but i dont wanna play buggy games. this is part of the reason why i left pc gaming back then. now it has become much better and i started to play pc games (crpgs in particular) again. i dont wanna risk it by getting frustrated because of a buggy game.

 

[Kuhrazy]

Early Wizardries, Bard's Tale games, and some of the Might&Magic games have good Ironman "mode", in that even if your whole party is wiped out it's not Game Over, since you can recruit new characters to resurrect the old party.
This, combined with no saving in the dungeons, is a good way to encourage Iron Man play.
Are there any more modern games with similar mechanics?

This is how Dark Heart of Uukrul works -- it's possible (sometimes) to resurrect dead characters, you can recruit new party members, and even if you get TPK'd somebody will recover your corpses and bring back at least one of you. No-reloads is the default way of playing, it's basically cheating to do otherwise.

(Uukrul is "more modern" compared to Wizardry I at least)

I suppose over time save/reload-anywhere became the universal default, unfortunately I would say. I notice generally that the level of bullshit in games seems to scale with the ease of saving. The devs fully expect you to simply push a button and undo anything really bad that happens, and the game becomes balanced around that. In theory I suppose this lets the player set their own difficulty but in practice the limiting factor is how boring you find it to reload the game yet again.

 

[naossano]

Even if you reached Enclavers and specced for Lifegiver (solo vet no-brainer), then yeah, you're probably gonna get crit bypassed and melted down anyway...

You prefer having no chance to be melted ?

 

[thexsa]

Witcher 2 Iron Man is pretty ok. Few insta-death places, but if you die to those you shouldn't even be playing games.

Just beat the game on Dark first and then speed run through Iron Man like a boss.