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Crazy idea: starship blobber combat

tuluse

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So the other day I was thinking about the lack of good Star Trek games and I was thinking how turn based combat could be mapped to combat as shown in Star Trek. My first thought was about how it would be presented, and that came to me instantly. You would have a first person view from the captain's chair. The screen would be front and center and dominate the computer screen, and then sort of around it you would have all the various stations shown in Star Trek: science, engineering, communications, helm, navigation, security, etc.

Then I thought more about how the combat itself would be presented, and I was playing some of the Grimoire demo, and it struck me. You could easily meld blobber combat to a star ship. Instead of different classes you would have the different types of officers. You would be able to issues each one a command to do during the next turn. Instead of magic you would have the various special technological things you see done in Star Trek. You would have a meta layer of strategy because the entire crew is on one vessel so you would have shared resources: health and power mainly. So officer actions could involve rerouting power to needed systems.

I haven't thought about this in detail yet, but I think it could work.
 

Arkadin

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This could be an interesting concept.

I would only be concerned about how position would come into play. In a blobber you have typically have abstracted position--rows, etc.--of the party members on the battlefield, but here the party members--the different officers you mentioned--aren't going to need to be "positioned" per se, since damage and effects dealt and received would be distributed to the ships themselves and not the party members. So that's out, but would you then want to implement game systems involving any form of ship-to-ship positioning? This is not so much of a blobber mechanic perhaps, since this is more equivalent to where your party and an enemy party are positioned on the battlefield, but I would imagine it would be an important consideration in any kind of space fighting genre (although I admit that my knowledge of Star Trek is limited, apart from the Lizard Sex episode).
 

Piety

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Are you talking more about the blobber interface, or the combat? Both apply, I think. In particular the relatively "simple" arrangement of starships in Star Trek combat (usually only 2 or 3 ships involved, not very much maneuvering, mostly sitting still in front of each other trading fire and scrambling down in Engineering to hold the ship together) especially lends itself to blobber mechanics, with its simplified and abstracted character positioning, like Arkadin said. The same ideas and set-up might work well in a game about ocean-going battleships, or submarines.

I've been thinking lately about applying blobber mechanics to a other genres, too. Like WWII squad combat, for example (could be other eras, too). Each character is a small squad, and troop strength substitutes for HP. The usual blobber positions (front rank and back rank for both player and opponent, maybe a few available spots you might choose to advance into between the party and the enemy) could be split into left-flank, right-flank and center for each back-to-front position, and depending on location in the game-world each position might have different features (cover, water, etc) conferring bonuses/maluses to occupying soldiers. Range is a factor in combat rolls, flank-vs-center is a factor, terrain is a factor. I think it might add a little tactical interest to the traditional blobber set-up without expanding it too drastically.
 

tuluse

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Arkadin Positioning was never depicted as that important in Star Trek, with the exception of distance. Which I would keep. So the further away you are the less likely both parties would hit each other. One of the commands available to you would be how you want to move each turn. So you could head straight towards the enemy, or you could try to retreat, or you could use evasive actions, which would limit how much you could control the distance but confer other advantages.

Piety both interface and combat, but both also modified. Inspired by blobber combat might be a better way of putting it. Each officer would not have have an attack that he is performing (or direct action against the enemy like a spell). Rather a single officer would be in charge of targeting, another would be in charge of piloting the ship, others would be doing damage control. Then you would probably have the communication officer and/or science officer involved in a multi-turn plot to use science! to in some fancy way to defeat the enemy.

I really only thought about this in terms of 1v1 combat, with more enemy ships, you would need some way to tell how far from each one you are and what moving towards/away from ship A would mean for distance from ship B. I could just ignore it and only have 1v1 combat like FTL does it.
 

mondblut

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Buck Rogers games had pretty much typical blobber combat for spaceship engagements. There was also that SSI space RPG from mid-80s, Star something, also played ship combat in quite a Bard's Tale-ish way.

...ah, Star Command. Retract my statement, it wasn't particularly blobbish, you got to move your ship across battlefield.
 

tuluse

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I think I need to give Buck Rogers a playthrough some time.
 

Gozma

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Having good risk vs. reward stuff for capturing vs. destroying other ships would be a big deal also. If it were as big a dichotomy as like kill vs. capture in X-Com that would be interesting. I always thought Pirates! dropped the ball a bit because capturing was far easier than destroying, so ship destruction had no point (although it was done for realism's sake).
 

Black Cat

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You may find of use or interest to play a bit of Infinite Space as the combat is kind of what you do mention along some deeply customizable starships and some mechanics to add depth to the combat like trying to predict what the enemy is trying to do to counter it with the type of maneuver it is weak against or boarding actions.

You do need quite a bit of resistance to anime faggotry to enjoy it fully but there is a great game behind it.

 

tuluse

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Being a DS exclusive is a bigger stumbling block than anime. How are emulators these days?
 

tuluse

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Having good risk vs. reward stuff for capturing vs. destroying other ships would be a big deal also. If it were as big a dichotomy as like kill vs. capture in X-Com that would be interesting. I always thought Pirates! dropped the ball a bit because capturing was far easier than destroying, so ship destruction had no point (although it was done for realism's sake).
Sticking with the Star Trek pastiche, self destruct devices are ever present so trying to capture a ship would be extremely risky.
 

Fart Master

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Being a DS exclusive is a bigger stumbling block than anime. How are emulators these days?
I've finished Dragon Quest 4, 5 and 6 so far on Desmume (DS emu) without any problems or fucking around with any settings at all. The screens take some getting used to unless you have a 4:3 monitor or some shit.
 

Darth Roxor

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Something like that was done in the PnP WH40k: Rogue Trader when stuff came down to space combat, and it was one of my favourite parts of the system, I think.

Basically, a ship's "strategic turn" is separated into 3 let's say stages. Manoeuvring, shooting and extended crew actions. Each turn, the ship must make a moving action, using the Piloting skill of the guy at the helm and may use one shooting action, using the Ballistic skill of the guy at the turret control. Meanwhile, the rest of the player characters can do Extended Actions to boost the manoeuvring or shooting. The ship itself also has its stats, such as manoeuvrability, sensors, crew morale, etc.

Thus, say, with a party of 6, the combat looks like this:

The void-master pilot does evasive manoeuvres at (piloting+manoeuvrability)-10 to gimp the enemy's accuracy.

The arch-militant boards the turrets and starts shooting shit, focusing fire from both the shield-ignoring lazer lances and the macrobatteries on the enemy shield generators.

As for the rest of the dudes, for example:

- The tech-priest explorator sets off to grant the ship a Manoeuvrability or Detection bonus by using his Tech Use skill (at +0). The bonus is +5 and another +5 for every 2 degrees of success on the test.
- The rogue trader captain uses Deceive or Blather at -10 to give the crew a morale boost of d5/degree of success.
- The seneschal calls up a boarding party to board the enemy ship and do sum sabotage. First he rolls Piloting to board the ship, then Command against the enemy commander's Command to see how much damage has been wrought.
- The psyker uses his Scrutiny skill + the ship's Detection to lock on a target and give the arch-militant a +5 (+5/2 dos) bonus to firing one weapon component.

And there are still many other actions available.

This shit can be REALLY cool in the actual game if at least one of the players is well-accustomed with the ship combat rules. You can do some crazy planning, and it also feels nice to, you know, throw around orders to other blokes.

And it's actually fairly simple all in all, it basically boils down to keeping tabs on a list of actions you can do, then plan them around in a queue and let everything roll. I don't see why it wouldn't be possible in a computor game, with lists and tooltips and stuff that would all keep track of the system for you, while you'd only need to assign crewmembers to activities.
 

tuluse

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That sounds very close to what I had in mind.

The only thing is that I want some bigger effect actions rather than just modifers. Something like hacking the other ship to make it drop it's shields ala Wrath of Khan or an encounter like in Balance of Terror where the enemy ship only uncloaks long enough to shoot at you from further away than your weapons reach so you need to find a way to detect it.
 

J1M

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This is a cool idea. I enjoyed Star Trek Bridge Commander and Faster Than Light.

Some aspects of Star Trek to consider:
-Power level adjustment plays an important part
-If the time it takes for power levels to adjust is not zero these choices become more interesting
-An interesting task for a crew member as an alternative to boosting shields or accuracy would be to boost energy transfer rate
-Although you'd think space has very little terrain, the use of it is rampant in the show. Consider having a simplistic spacial map that allows use of nebulas/asteroid belts/planetary rings/etc.
 

Gregz

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It reminds me of gunners on a deck, like the old 28 gun frigates.

Each gun crew could have stats, different weapon and ammo types, chance to crit various components on the opposing ship, etc.

Perhaps there's a privateer/pirate sim out there that uses a similar approach to combat.

yamatoship.jpg
 

tuluse

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-If the time it takes for power levels to adjust is not zero these choices become more interesting
-An interesting task for a crew member as an alternative to boosting shields or accuracy would be to boost energy transfer rate
These are great ideas, it could be applied to damage control too. Possibly even include where a crewmember is on the ship as a variable to track. So a plasma conduit on deck 14 needs to be repaired. Every person you send to fix it is one less person at their station. Is it worth it to send two people to go fix it and limit how long it's broken or just send one to keep more people on the bridge working their stations?

This is something FTL did very well, though it was a bit too intense and visceral to suit my tastes entirely.
 

Gozma

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Ah, I'd love to see a videogame version of Star Trek engineering, as in ways for a ship to dynamically break in an interesting way, and with interesting methods to rig quick/unstable/inefficient fixes to that damage. Has that been done?

I always wanted a sci-fi survival horror (Roguelike) where you have the classic System Shock setup of being alone on an infested and damaged ship, except instead of following a linear plot with someone ordering you around on a radio the ship has a simulated procedural existence with failing systems you need to fix/bypass to live.
 

Job Creator

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I'm sure there's a MUD out there somewhere that has done all this, except for the graphics.
 
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So the other day I was thinking about the lack of good Star Trek games and I was thinking how turn based combat could be mapped to combat as shown in Star Trek. My first thought was about how it would be presented, and that came to me instantly. You would have a first person view from the captain's chair. The screen would be front and center and dominate the computer screen, and then sort of around it you would have all the various stations shown in Star Trek: science, engineering, communications, helm, navigation, security, etc.

Totally unrelated to the rest of your idea, but there is kind of a "Spaceship bridge simulator" out there. No idea about the particulars, but some friends of mine have been playing it.
http://www.artemis.eochu.com/
 

DraQ

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So the other day I was thinking about the lack of good Star Trek games and I was thinking how turn based combat could be mapped to combat as shown in Star Trek. My first thought was about how it would be presented, and that came to me instantly. You would have a first person view from the captain's chair. The screen would be front and center and dominate the computer screen, and then sort of around it you would have all the various stations shown in Star Trek: science, engineering, communications, helm, navigation, security, etc.

Then I thought more about how the combat itself would be presented, and I was playing some of the Grimoire demo, and it struck me. You could easily meld blobber combat to a star ship. Instead of different classes you would have the different types of officers. You would be able to issues each one a command to do during the next turn. Instead of magic you would have the various special technological things you see done in Star Trek. You would have a meta layer of strategy because the entire crew is on one vessel so you would have shared resources: health and power mainly. So officer actions could involve rerouting power to needed systems.

I haven't thought about this in detail yet, but I think it could work.
Actually that's an interesting idea, but it's stylistics mostly.

Commanding bridge crew *IS* very much like blobber and could benefit from stylistically exploiting this idea, but in terms of external, out of blob mechanics it should remain susbstantially different from blobber - very different movement, definitely no grid of any sort, TB or equivalent debatable, depending on pacing.

There would be some other differences too - you'd generally try to fit crew to different stations depending on ship's loadout and type, and crew's proficiencies, rather than allocating equipment to the party based on their abilities and roles, so you'd have a kind of an inversion between the roles of party and gear.
 

tuluse

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Actually that's an interesting idea, but it's stylistics mostly.

Commanding bridge crew *IS* very much like blobber and could benefit from stylistically exploiting this idea, but in terms of external, out of blob mechanics it should remain susbstantially different from blobber - very different movement, definitely no grid of any sort, TB or equivalent debatable, depending on pacing.
Most games featuring star ship combat try to turn it into a shooter, and many use a camera outside of the ship (or have the option for one). As for movement, I was originally thinking of continuing to ape Star Trek and basically you just choose what planet you want to warp to, and from there any movement would actually be one dimensional (how far away from the enemy ship you are). However, the idea above about incorporating nebulae and other space "terrain" sounds fun, so my thinking has changed. You could represent this with a 3D grid. I wasn't thinking of anything like step based movement though. If a grid was used, the speed of the ship would determine how many spaces it could move. I am definitely thinking turn based because I like the tension of wondering if I have made the correct choice(s) as I hit end turn and see what happens.

There would be some other differences too - you'd generally try to fit crew to different stations depending on ship's loadout and type, and crew's proficiencies, rather than allocating equipment to the party based on their abilities and roles, so you'd have a kind of an inversion between the roles of party and gear.
This is true, and it appeals to me.
 

DraQ

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Most games featuring star ship combat try to turn it into a shooter
Indeed, but it doesn't really work for providing that large ship feeling, does it? That I said that it would be merely a stylistic choice doesn't mean that it wouldn't be powerful stylistics or that it couldn't lead to interesting and unconventional approach regarding other aspects.
For example, it won't necessarily have to involve dogfights at almost melee range to remain aesthetically appealing.

As for movement, I was originally thinking of continuing to ape Star Trek and basically you just choose what planet you want to warp to, and from there any movement would actually be one dimensional (how far away from the enemy ship you are). However, the idea above about incorporating nebulae and other space "terrain" sounds fun, so my thinking has changed.
Well, while I don't really like "Sci-Fi" show nebulae (I hate with passion, actually), you'll usually have more than just two ships duking it out in the middle of nowhere (and why exactly would two starships be duking it out in the middle of nowhere to begin with?). You'll typically have some planet nearby, stations, moons, other combatants and so on.
Hell, even with just two ships you can still have stuff like drones and munitions flying around and adding spatial complexity to the battle - if, as it was said in ST, 2D thinking is already a liability in space combat, then why the fuck would you want your combat to be 1D?

You could represent this with a 3D grid. I wasn't thinking of anything like step based movement though. If a grid was used, the speed of the ship would determine how many spaces it could move. I am definitely thinking turn based because I like the tension of wondering if I have made the correct choice(s) as I hit end turn and see what happens.
But why bother with a grid?

You won't have dungeon here, combat will either be TB or slow paced, and you won't have much range limitations.

Again, why the fuck ape anything?

OTOH with "smooth" space you will be able to accommodate wider range of ranges - if you want long range combat instead of close up dogfight (remember, you don't want space shootan and you can always "put it on screen" to avoid zapping some invisible dot in the sky) you'll either have to deal with millions of grid blocks, defeating the purpose of having a grid, or grid blocks that can easily fit an entire starfleet or two, plus a planet.

With smooth space you can also adopt more or less 'realistic' mechanics more easily, from just flying in straight lines and zapping each other, to newtonian with orbits, and I believe you could push some sort of orbital navigation menu on tactical RPG crowd easier than you could teach twitchers rocket science (and RPG crowd is generally used to stuff that looks abstract - as in doesn't make sense at first glance).

There would be some other differences too - you'd generally try to fit crew to different stations depending on ship's loadout and type, and crew's proficiencies, rather than allocating equipment to the party based on their abilities and roles, so you'd have a kind of an inversion between the roles of party and gear.
This is true, and it appeals to me.
Great! So that's how I'd see it:

Your ship generally plays the role party plays in in terms of mechanics. It is divided into sections arranged in fixed 3D "formation" (we need to determine occlusion for hits, firing arcs shield/point defense coverage and so on), each having its own damage system, fixed equipment and equipment slots. Some sections (generally those that actively do something), or perhaps entire systems across sections will also have crew slots (even though the crewman in question will generally be physically on bridge, he will have his battle station linked to it). Crewmen would generally have various stats determining their abilities with different types of stations and actions.

Bridge crew would generally not be directly damaged in any way, depending on setting you could also have auxiliary crew - repair teams, boarding/security teams, fighter pilots, medbay, and stuff like that, or have the entire crew be composed of only people on bridge, with fighter drones being remotely operated or AI controlled, repairs being done by repair bots supervised by engineer and so forth - in such case you avoid division into category a and category b crew, and you may have singular crew members in harm's way sometimes (if you have to send an away team and your ship has no other crew to begin with). You can also mix approaches depending on size and type of the ship and mechanization factor.

So, for example you'll have someone on sensors station (which will be linked to sensors packs installed in appropriate slots on the ship - with different possible sensor packs and, if you have many, possibly requiring multiple sensors operators), and depending on their skills they may be excellent at planetary scans involving scientific work, but moderately good at mining scans and shitty at both planetary bombardment scans and combat scans. You'll have someone at drone station, launching and commanding drones or even remotely piloting one, you will have navigators and gunners firing all sorts of armaments. You'll have engineers overseeing system operation and repairs, defense operators overseeing point defenses, countermeasures and shields (if present), computer ops capable of decrypting communications and possibly taking over insufficiently protected enemy drones and so on. You might also have ship's computer, which, depending on power and capacity, could house software allowing for boosting particular abilities of people at given stations, provide unique functionalities, or multiplex multiple systems of given type to a single station.

You'd generally always have first person view (often zoomed in) from either your own ship, allied ship or own/allied/captured drone/probe, although you should also have tactical map (information you actually have only). TPP "vanity mode" is also allowed given that due to distances involved you wouldn't really have actual use for it (but hey, pretty screenies).

I would propose real time with variable game speed, due to the fact that combat would be really slow-paced at real speed anyway (so no real advantage TB could provide, unlike conventional blobber) and RT would be advantageous for both mechanical reasons and the fact that game's speed would vary drastically, making fixed length time-steps ill suited.
 

tuluse

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Well, while I don't really like "Sci-Fi" show nebulae (I hate with passion, actually), you'll usually have more than just two ships duking it out in the middle of nowhere (and why exactly would two starships be duking it out in the middle of nowhere to begin with?). You'll typically have some planet nearby, stations, moons, other combatants and so on.
Hell, even with just two ships you can still have stuff like drones and munitions flying around and adding spatial complexity to the battle - if, as it was said in ST, 2D thinking is already a liability in space combat, then why the fuck would you want your combat to be 1D?
To be honest. I might actually prototype this and it would be easier. The ships would typically be near a planet but not close enough for it to affect the battle

But why bother with a grid?

You won't have dungeon here, combat will either be TB or slow paced, and you won't have much range limitations.

Again, why the fuck ape anything?
Just brainstorming. Movement and positioning is not nailed down in my head at all.

Great! So that's how I'd see it:

Your ship generally plays the role party plays in in terms of mechanics. It is divided into sections arranged in fixed 3D "formation" (we need to determine occlusion for hits, firing arcs shield/point defense coverage and so on), each having its own damage system, fixed equipment and equipment slots. Some sections (generally those that actively do something), or perhaps entire systems across sections will also have crew slots (even though the crewman in question will generally be physically on bridge, he will have his battle station linked to it). Crewmen would generally have various stats determining their abilities with different types of stations and actions.

Bridge crew would generally not be directly damaged in any way, depending on setting you could also have auxiliary crew - repair teams, boarding/security teams, fighter pilots, medbay, and stuff like that, or have the entire crew be composed of only people on bridge, with fighter drones being remotely operated or AI controlled, repairs being done by repair bots supervised by engineer and so forth - in such case you avoid division into category a and category b crew, and you may have singular crew members in harm's way sometimes (if you have to send an away team and your ship has no other crew to begin with). You can also mix approaches depending on size and type of the ship and mechanization factor.
I was thinking there could be critical hits that would incapacitate crewmen, but generally the only reason they're not actively helping is that they need to move from one part of the ship to the other.

So, for example you'll have someone on sensors station (which will be linked to sensors packs installed in appropriate slots on the ship - with different possible sensor packs and, if you have many, possibly requiring multiple sensors operators), and depending on their skills they may be excellent at planetary scans involving scientific work, but moderately good at mining scans and shitty at both planetary bombardment scans and combat scans. You'll have someone at drone station, launching and commanding drones or even remotely piloting one, you will have navigators and gunners firing all sorts of armaments. You'll have engineers overseeing system operation and repairs, defense operators overseeing point defenses, countermeasures and shields (if present), computer ops capable of decrypting communications and possibly taking over insufficiently protected enemy drones and so on. You might also have ship's computer, which, depending on power and capacity, could house software allowing for boosting particular abilities of people at given stations, provide unique functionalities, or multiplex multiple systems of given type to a single station.

You'd generally always have first person view (often zoomed in) from either your own ship, allied ship or own/allied/captured drone/probe, although you should also have tactical map (information you actually have only). TPP "vanity mode" is also allowed given that due to distances involved you wouldn't really have actual use for it (but hey, pretty screenies).

I would propose real time with variable game speed, due to the fact that combat would be really slow-paced at real speed anyway (so no real advantage TB could provide, unlike conventional blobber) and RT would be advantageous for both mechanical reasons and the fact that game's speed would vary drastically, making fixed length time-steps ill suited.
This is beyond the scope of what I could hope to accomplish. Also I like TB which is why I want to do it.

Further, I want to re-create the feel of Star Trek, not really do accurate sci-fi. Sorry Draq.
 

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