Correlation of RTS skills to RTwP RPGs

[Forest Dweller]

So, earlier in the year I played Dragon Age. I played it on Normal. I also had a friend who had beaten it earlier on Hard. When I was done I started telling him how much I hated RTwP. I talked about how pausing to give orders made things problematic. You have to focus on things such as making sure that you give a new order right when you can (but not too soon or that will cancel the previous order), understanding the exact timings of things and having to plan accordingly (difficult when you're trying to micromanage), and having to deal with awkward split-second pausings in order to maximize efficiency - all of which have nothing to do with actual tactics. I basically said that the mechanics worked against the combat, and that if it was turn-based I would gladly replay the game on Hard, but since it wasn't there was no way I'd force myself to deal with even more bullshit on a higher level. He responded that you are meant to make the decisions in real-time and only occasionally pause the game when you are being swamped (how he played - on Hard, mind you) and that the real-time aspects of it was part of the challenge.

So, I thought about this. I recalled at this moment that he was a pro Starcraft player (well, maybe not pro, but definitely up there) and that I never was that good at it. I thought about it, and it seems that the skills would transfer over quite well. It's basically the same thing - commanding multiple units, positioning, micromanaging their abilities, timing, etc... So I guess it kinda makes sense that if he was good at that he'd also be good at Dragon Age. And that I wouldn't be so much.

Do you guys feel the same way? Share your experiences.

 

[Excommunicator]

I hated Dragon Age combat. For me it wasn't as much the micromanagement of things (which can be fun in the right context, but not this one) as it was the absolute tedium and irritation of the combat in the game. It was the same shit over and over. Pause. Click through every annoying fucker on my team. Unpause. Wait for everyone to kill their paired enemy. Stop again. Click through the tards. Win. Wait for the next wave to spawn. Repeat. A hundred or more times.

I didn't use the AI tactics crap or have a healer or any ranged characters (because the combat wasn't engaging enough to make me want to care), which meant that unless I wanted to be there for fucking ever in even longer boring combat then I had to put it back down to easy. Even then it was very tiresome still having to babysit characters because I just wasn't interested in the combat part of the game.

I would pick a TB party game over RTwP party game pretty much always, but I am also an even bigger fan of solo games (almost always RT) or ones with a soloing capacity, which in games made for group play is generally an interesting challenge.

I find it a lot more fun playing a well-rounded RTS than a shit RTwP combat game like DA. Thus, I think the correlation does not exist as strongly as you might suggest it to, and based more on how engaging the game mechanics are overall to drive someone to feel interested and invested enough to take advantage of the rule systems rather than glitch their way through as much as possible

 

[Awor Szurkrarz]

RT is a pretty shitty choice for skirmish-level games. Their main strength is attention to details in combat mechanics, so it needs a good party AI and good planning system to be good without forcing the player to pause all the time. Also, I'm not very fond of it because it gives players too much control.
You don't have to make split second decisions and based on what you perceive at that moment because you can pause and think everything over. Also, the AI doesn't have the same amount time to think as you as it can't pause the game.
TB games counterbalance it by allowing enemy turn where you temporarily lose control and can just watch and see what enemies do.

RT works for RTS games because they are basically strategic-level games with accelerated time that adopted tactical/skirmish level game aesthetics, which means that you don't have to pick specific attacks of every unit, etc.

 

[Achilles]

Sadly I suck at both. Even in RTwP games i pause every second in order to survey the situation.

Turn-based is the only system that gives you complete control over your party and as such it's always the best option. Everything else is shit by comparison.

 

[Raghar]

Are you talking about Real time, or a Turn based simultaneous execution? These are two different things.
Real time is jab, jab, jab, jab, roll, defend. On the other hand, TBSE requires some planning.
Risen was real time, I leave as a exercise of OP to discover which games are TBSE.

 

[Overweight Manatee]

Good at RTS but can't stand hitting the fucking spacebar and pausing the game every .001 seconds just to order shit, so I end up playing RTwP as RTS and only end up playing at a mediocre level. The problem with RTwP is that there is effectively an infinite number of orders you would want to give so how well you play is directly correlated with how much time you want to spend giving orders.

 

[Awor Szurkrarz]

Turn based simultaneous execution?

It's an oxymoron. I believe you are talking about phase-based.

 

[deuxhero]

RTwP needs skill?

 

[SoupNazi]

It wasn't the RTwP that ruined combat in Dragon Age. It was the total repetition of the same mobs all over and over again, absolutely no change in the enemy parties and no need for tactics other than a mage freezing the enemies and everyone else swooping in for the kills. I'm repeating what was already said many times as well, that there's just three types of enemies and the only difference other than that is their level. Even the enemy mages always use the same damn spells.

 

[Metro]

Good at RTS but can't stand hitting the fucking spacebar and pausing the game every .001 seconds just to order shit, so I end up playing RTwP as RTS and only end up playing at a mediocre level. The problem with RTwP is that there is effectively an infinite number of orders you would want to give so how well you play is directly correlated with how much time you want to spend giving orders.

Exactly. This is why I despise the system. I'd rather play an ARPG.

 

[Chuftie]

It wasn't the RTwP that ruined combat in Dragon Age. It was the total repetition of the same mobs all over and over again, absolutely no change in the enemy parties and no need for tactics other than a mage freezing the enemies and everyone else swooping in for the kills. I'm repeating what was already said many times as well, that there's just three types of enemies and the only difference other than that is their level. Even the enemy mages always use the same damn spells.

Souapnazi pretty much nailed it down

 

[Demnogonis Saastuttaja]

Many RTwP games control very differently to RTS games, camera angle, UI, hotkeys for things, unit AI, and so on. And there's a lot of boring waiting in RTwP games (unlike proper fast-paced turn based games with little or no animation) so I don't think you're as focused as you would be in an RTS.

 

[Zed]

I'm good at every game I play.

Except I don't play console games. But I'm probably better than you at console games given 10 minutes of practice.

 

[MetalCraze]

I'm good at both but I hate both

 

[MicoSelva]

I don't think there is much correlation, since there is no "attack enemy in the area" command in RTwP RPGs, or at least i'm not aware if there is.
About the only RTS I've (successfully) played is StarCraft, and the unit command boiled down to press 'A' + click on the ground near the enemy, 90% of the time. Never used anything similar in RTwP RPGs.

As a side note, also this:

I hated Dragon Age combat. For me it wasn't as much the micromanagement of things (which can be fun in the right context, but not this one) as it was the absolute tedium and irritation of the combat in the game. It was the same shit over and over. Pause. Click through every annoying fucker on my team. Unpause. Wait for everyone to kill their paired enemy. Stop again. Click through the tards. Win. Wait for the next wave to spawn. Repeat. A hundred or more times.

 

[deuxhero]

It wasn't the RTwP that ruined combat in Dragon Age. It was the total repetition of the same mobs all over and over again, absolutely no change in the enemy parties and no need for tactics other than a mage freezing the enemies and everyone else swooping in for the kills. I'm repeating what was already said many times as well, that there's just three types of enemies and the only difference other than that is their level. Even the enemy mages always use the same damn spells.

Sounds exactly like KotOR...

 

[Raghar]

Turn based simultaneous execution?

It's an oxymoron. I believe you are talking about phase-based.

US education system is the o word. Phase based means, the combat resolution is separated into multiple phases, for example planning phase, movement phase, and firing phase.

TBSE means everyone could get an action each turn, and these actions are executing simultaneously. (It can look strange without randomization because attacks are looking synchronized. It's better than a person who moves with knife against machine gun and do cut cut because machine gunner already fired at someone else in the same direction.)

There is also ATB and other stuff.

 

[Awor Szurkrarz]

Turn based simultaneous execution?

It's an oxymoron. I believe you are talking about phase-based.

US education system is the o word. Phase based means, the combat resolution is separated into multiple phases, for example planning phase, movement phase, and firing phase.

So a game which has a planning phase when both give orders and execution phase when these orders are executed simultanously is phase based.

 

[attackfighter]

It's all about memorizing what you need to be doing in whatever given game you're playing. If you know what actions you need to take you eliminate the hesitation between your commands, and that's what's most important when improving your speed. So I'd say the skill transfer between genres and even games is pretty small, since you're going to have to learn the "tactics" on a case by case basis.

 

[Overweight Manatee]

It wasn't the RTwP that ruined combat in Dragon Age. It was the total repetition of the same mobs all over and over again, absolutely no change in the enemy parties and no need for tactics other than a mage freezing the enemies and everyone else swooping in for the kills. I'm repeating what was already said many times as well, that there's just three types of enemies and the only difference other than that is their level. Even the enemy mages always use the same damn spells.

Three types of enemies? Its 2 by my count, warriors and thiefs were pretty much indistinguishable. The only categories I had for enemies in DA was either "dies instantly to magerape spell" or "stun with any of your other spells and let fighter clean up".