Vapourware Codexian Game Development Thread

[barker_s]

What are we looking at? Is it a top-down view, or a side view?

 

[Mastermind]

Side view. You can see the earth and the water.

 

[Zep Zepo]

Do you plan a window block so light gets out but water doesn't get in?

Zep--

 

[jcd]

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[Rhuantavan]

And a map in progress from me.

 

[r3jonwah85]

Small update on something new, been writing the dungeon generation algorithm for a while and wanted to start implementing some features. From the very beginning I wanted to impement a stealth system that was similar to Thief but I just could not come up with a good way to do it (without using light maps). But today an idea just popped up in my head, and 4 hours later it was prototyped and working quite well. All "art" is placeholder, the orb that indicates the light on the player was the fastest way I could think of to get visual feedback, this will change later on.

 

[set]

You did in 4 hours what most AAA devs can't accomplish in 4 years, apparently.

 

[Jaesun]

That looked pretty sweet. Is this a turn based combat game?

 

[Mastermind]

No, it's a RT dungeon crawler, like UU.

 

[r3jonwah85]

You did in 4 hours what most AAA devs can't accomplish in 4 years, apparently.

Not sure if ironic and think it looks like shit or you actually like it, but hey I am optimistic and will go for the latter! But this system is in no way perfect, but it works with my procedural content that must use real-time lighting (Unity can't bake light maps on the fly, and even if it did the loading screen would probably be to long) and it feels pretty intuitive.

That looked pretty sweet. Is this a turn based combat game?

No, it's a RT dungeon crawler, like UU.

Mastermind is right on the money, UU might be the closest comparison at this point gameplay wise (not saying my game is on the same level, but you can always have ambitions and references).

Not anything new, but i realized that I did not show anything with occluding objects, so this video highlights that. Also, since users might not be able to use shadows (I was actually not planning on using them at all for performance reasons, but is is better to make it an option I think to satisfy all the graphic whores on the codex) I show the difference with or without shadows. Shadows give you more of a visual que, other than that they work exactly the same.



So do you guys think it looks to weird when shadows are not used? Or is it possible to expect that the player have some imagination and understand that you can occlude the light behind a pillar?

 

[set]

I think it looks fine, the stealth meter. What I mean is, most developers use static light maps, even the new Thief, I think. I think it really looks nice when you use shadows -- just like the original Thief really. Right there, you have the base for an amazing game - procedural stealth is something I've always wanted to do. Doing things dynamically means you can have enemies carry torches, or you can let players knock out lights, and use other mechanics that enhance the difficulty and novelty of stealth.

 

[r3jonwah85]

I think it looks fine, the stealth meter. What I mean is, most developers use static light maps, even the new Thief, I think. I think it really looks nice when you use shadows -- just like the original Thief really. Right there, you have the base for an amazing game - procedural stealth is something I've always wanted to do. Doing things dynamically means you can have enemies carry torches, or you can let players knock out lights, and use other mechanics that enhance the difficulty and novelty of stealth.

Thanks, I leave it open for now since it is very easy to change, but the real-time shadows do look very nice, it's just costly ass hell, draw calls pretty much doubles. And regarding the knocking out lights it has been in the game for quite some time, you can use both magic and arrows (it's in some old video I have posted) to do so, also the opposite is doable (turn on the lights)

 

[eric__s]

And a map in progress from me.

Getting flashbacks...

What is this game? What are your plans for it? What do each of those cities represent?

 

[set]

I think it looks fine, the stealth meter. What I mean is, most developers use static light maps, even the new Thief, I think. I think it really looks nice when you use shadows -- just like the original Thief really. Right there, you have the base for an amazing game - procedural stealth is something I've always wanted to do. Doing things dynamically means you can have enemies carry torches, or you can let players knock out lights, and use other mechanics that enhance the difficulty and novelty of stealth.

Thanks, I leave it open for now since it is very easy to change, but the real-time shadows do look very nice, it's just costly ass hell, draw calls pretty much doubles. And regarding the knocking out lights it has been in the game for quite some time, you can use both magic and arrows (it's in some old video I have posted) to do so, also the opposite is doable (turn on the lights)

The only thing you really need with all that is reactive AI - AI entities who understand the importance of light and shadow. That's the toughest part. I hope you're implementing sound stuff too, with floors creating more or less sound for enemies?

As for rendering, I'm quite surprised. Is rendering really a concern? Sorry for not being that familiar w/ your project, but are you targeting low-end hardware? Or is Unity really just that poorly optimized? If you're doing basic shadow and light...

I would say, good lighting is what makes or breaks the artstyle of a game. Lots of games age horribly because their lighting is shit. Thief 1-3 still look good to me, thanks to their extensive use of light and shadow.

 

[Rhuantavan]

What is this game? What are your plans for it? What do each of those cities represent?

I call it Call of Saregnar. It's a labor of love and my life project, meaning that it will probably take me a lifetime to complete.

I like to think of it as an RPG/interactive fiction hybrid. It is a party-based game where you control up to three pre-defined characters exploring a linear story that unfolds over several chapters. A major portion of the game is map travel and open exploration via the map, with numerous travel events, camping, and making sure you are well equipped for the road ahead. City exploration is done Darklands-style with a textual-driven interface. Combat is strategic and turn-based, which I still haven't decided on how exactly it should work; Probably something along the lines of Betrayal at Krondor.

Oh yeah, I am developing it for OS X (and maybe the iPad), which is why this is the last time you guys will want to know more about the game.

 

[eric__s]

What is this game? What are your plans for it? What do each of those cities represent?

I call it Call of Saregnar. It's a labor of love and my life project, meaning that it will probably take me a lifetime to complete.

I like to think of it as an RPG/interactive fiction hybrid. It is a party-based game where you control up to three pre-defined characters exploring a linear story that unfolds over several chapters. A major portion of the game is map travel and open exploration via the map, with numerous travel events, camping, and making sure you are well equipped for the road ahead. City exploration is done Darklands-style with a textual-driven interface. Combat is strategic and turn-based, which I still haven't decided on how exactly it should work; Probably something along the lines of Betrayal at Krondor.

Oh yeah, I am developing it for OS X (and maybe the iPad), which is why this is the last time you guys will want to know more about the game.

I'm sold! This sounds pretty interesting, getting a lot of Betrayal at Krondor + Realms of Arkania vibes. I don't have OS X or an iPad, but I'm sure I'll find some way to play this...

 

[Baron]

the orb that indicates the light on the player was the fastest way I could think of to get visual feedback, this will change later on.

Demo looks great. But why do you even need the orb as visual feedback? The player already HAS clear visual feedback, given they can see the light expand on the screen as they walk towards a torch or fireplace. They should be paying attention to the gameworld, staring at the proximity from the brazier to the royal guard, not gawking at another meter or bar chart in the top right hand corner of the monitor.

I know players like an exact number or line so stay beneath and they loathe uncertainty, but screw 'em. It should be a skill gained from play experience, to gauge what their character can accomplish; not the dull inching forward with the WASD keys to stay beneath some number. It's only annoying to play when your system is horrible buggy and therefore logically inconsistant, getting spotted by guards in total darkness or waving a bonfire in front of their face and they mutter, "I swear I could have heard something..."

Scrap all redundant UI clutter. If your system works logically (and your demo shows it works great, congrats by the way) then the player has all the info they need to stay in shadows and jack off at passing pedestrians and fling cum at them, or whatever FPS genre you have in mind. Damn, I should Kickstart a Miggs simulator, will get funding in 3 hours flat.

By the way, your Stealth part 2 video is fantastic.



edit - If you really need to have some player feedback place a light sensitive gem on the ring finger of the player, for first person view (assuming you're having the weapon / hands displayed on the screen). Or on the pommel or hilt of a dagger. It can softly illuminate as the player approaches through the shadows. (And make it a 5% penalty to wear it, meaning guards are slightly better at spotting the player with the glowing ring.... as opposed to the all-in-black ninja with a dull plank of wood. Make it a training device that should be ditched once the player is more experienced with the game system.) Just don't use an orb, a bar chart, or ticker tape running along the base of the screen. Love me some immersion, bros.

[Just realised that's a pretty big demand for an individual to implement all of the above instead of a simple orb meter that you already have working... but meh, you asked for a opinion and this audience is not renown for being reasonable or having its expectations met.]

 

[r3jonwah85]

The only thing you really need with all that is reactive AI - AI entities who understand the importance of light and shadow. That's the toughest part. I hope you're implementing sound stuff too, with floors creating more or less sound for enemies?

As for rendering, I'm quite surprised. Is rendering really a concern? Sorry for not being that familiar w/ your project, but are you targeting low-end hardware? Or is Unity really just that poorly optimized? If you're doing basic shadow and light...

I would say, good lighting is what makes or breaks the artstyle of a game. Lots of games age horribly because their lighting is shit. Thief 1-3 still look good to me, thanks to their extensive use of light and shadow.

Somebody asked about sound in the development thread as well, I would really like to add that so I will look into it tonight/the weekend and see what I can do, I have some ideas to make it lightweight but still accurate but will have to read some more before dwelving into it.

Well it may not be a problem really, but for every new thing that is added I always look at performance, and shadows make the game go from 300-ish to 600-ish draw calls (this is with empty rooms and corridors). Now, that is nothing for a new computer (I think a couple of thousand draw calls is ok) but I still like to keep track of it. But doing some tests I really think that it might be crucial to the gameplay, just needs a bit more thought since I do not want to keep adding features and finally realize that performance sucks.

I agree, I booted up Thief last week (not played it since release) and was blown away by how good it looks with really simple models and textures. Now that game uses multiple light maps to simulate dynamic lights which I can't, but it is still a good reference. As I have stated before I still find games such as Thief, Severance, Hexen, Heretic, Doom and Quake to look beatiful and try to use some of their tricks to make nice graphics with simple models (the lessen my workload but also circumvent my lack of skills).

Demo looks great. But why do you even need the orb as visual feedback? The player already HAS clear visual feedback, given they can see the light expand on the screen as they walk towards a torch or fireplace. They should be paying attention to the gameworld, staring at the proximity from the brazier to the royal guard, not gawking at another meter or bar chart in the top right hand corner of the monitor.

I know players like an exact number or line so stay beneath and they loathe uncertainty, but screw 'em. It should be a skill gained from play experience, to gauge what their character can accomplish; not the dull inching forward with the WASD keys to stay beneath some number. It's only annoying to play when your system is horrible buggy and therefore logically inconsistant, getting spotted by guards in total darkness or waving a bonfire in front of their face and they mutter, "I swear I could have heard something..."

Scrap all redundant UI clutter. If your system works logically (and your demo shows it works great, congrats by the way) then the player has all the info they need to stay in shadows and jack off at passing pedestrians and fling cum at them, or whatever FPS genre you have in mind. Damn, I should Kickstart a Miggs simulator, will get funding in 3 hours flat.

By the way, your Stealth part 2 video is fantastic.



edit - If you really need to have some player feedback place a light sensitive gem on the ring finger of the player, for first person view (assuming you're having the weapon / hands displayed on the screen). Or on the pommel or hilt of a dagger. It can softly illuminate as the player approaches through the shadows. (And make it a 5% penalty to wear it, meaning guards are slightly better at spotting the player with the glowing ring.... as opposed to the all-in-black ninja with a dull plank of wood. Make it a training device that should be ditched once the player is more experienced with the game system.) Just don't use an orb, a bar chart, or ticker tape running along the base of the screen. Love me some immersion, bros.

[Just realised that's a pretty big demand for an individual to implement all of the above instead of a simple orb meter that you already have working... but meh, you asked for a opinion and this audience is not renown for being reasonable or having its expectations met.]

Thank you! One reason to add the visual feedback was intitally to check the code really, but as someone mentioned it is a pretty good idea to do it without using a HUD. The orb is actually supposed to be held in the hand but I have worked in a seperate project for this and don't have all my game models, so it just kind of floats in front of the camera. I think that the player needs some visual feedback since the attributes/skills of the player will determine the amount of light that can be absorbed befire being detected. So a higher skill can absorb more light, at least that is the initial idea, I will have to balance this stuff and think more if I get sound reactivity in there as well. And it is kind of hard to see the difference without more direct feedback unless the gradients are larger (which is hard to do, super bright lights look like shit).

But the player can of course opt not to equip the orb/ring/sword that indicate light and instead use a dagger in each hand if they so wish! I thougt about the same thing as you did (using the weapon as indicator) and will try it out, since I have a lot of materials on the wepaons I can set one material to act in this way when equipped. regarding the penalty I will keep it in mind, the balancing act will be done in the end but is nice to have some ideas in the back of your head!

 

[set]

It'd be much harder to implement, but it'd be neat if your weapon indicated light strength by glinting stronger. Though, wouldn't make sense for non-metallic weapons.

Can I ask what you're doing for AI? I've done a little programming in that area and I like discussing the best methods for producing fun and/or challenging AIs.

 

[r3jonwah85]

It'd be much harder to implement, but it'd be neat if your weapon indicated light strength by glinting stronger. Though, wouldn't make sense for non-metallic weapons.

Can I ask what you're doing for AI? I've done a little programming in that area and I like discussing the best methods for producing fun and/or challenging AIs.

Someone else mentioned that as well, will look into it since I think it is kind of simple to do, and I got something like 16 materials in the game so it can be limited to one of those.

The current AI, which is a bit old by now, feels presence, start looking and if they get visual contact they follow or attack (melee vs ranged enemies). If you run out of sight long enough they give up and go back to idle. The system does not use navmeshes nor navpoints but a dynamic follow system which logs the players movement and calculates the path to take. I had to do this since the other two mentioned systems does not work (at least in a simple way) with procedural content.

I have begun reading a bit more on the AI side and found some nice articles (e.g. http://www.gamasutra.com/view/feature/2888/building_an_ai_sensory_system_.php?print=1) so a re-write is due in the following weeks. I have recently changed from unityscript to C# so I will convert and update all code that has been written over the coming weeks/months.

 

[r3jonwah85]

Asketh and you shall receiveth.



There is a volume difference on the steps depending on movement speed, just have to tweak it a bit since it not very audible right now.

 

[r3jonwah85]

Updated and added some things, also put a web player for you guys to try out. Is there anything that feels off? As soon as I have some time I will play Thief to study more how they do things, and also to have some fun

Run using left shift and sneak using left ctrl (hold them down that is).
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/12407316/CryptsOfAvaritiaStealth/CryptsOfAvaritiaStealth.html

 

[barker_s]

That's very cool man. I like the smooth transition between the orb's lit and unlit states. The only thing that feels (or rather, sounds) off is the sound on that metal surface - the pitch randomisation range is too big imo.

From what I've seen, it looks like you're raycasting the nearest lights to determine if the player is illuminated or not, is that correct? It's an elegant solution, but there's a small flaw to it. If there's a pillar close to the light, the player is going to be either totally concealed, or, as soon as he peeks out and the raycast hits him - totally visible. There's no gradual change. One way around it would be to keep track of the previous "illumination" value every update (or every n updates). If the illumination changes drastically, instead of assigning it to the player instantly, you could gradually add up to it (or decrease it) until it reaches the actual level. While it doesn't alleviate the issue completely, it would give the player a visual cue that he's about to get exposed.

 

[r3jonwah85]

That's very cool man. I like the smooth transition between the orb's lit and unlit states. The only thing that feels (or rather, sounds) off is the sound on that metal surface - the pitch randomisation range is too big imo.

From what I've seen, it looks like you're raycasting the nearest lights to determine if the player is illuminated or not, is that correct? It's an elegant solution, but there's a small flaw to it. If there's a pillar close to the light, the player is going to be either totally concealed, or, as soon as he peeks out and the raycast hits him - totally visible. There's no gradual change. One way around it would be to keep track of the previous "illumination" value every update (or every n updates). If the illumination changes drastically, instead of assigning it to the player instantly, you could gradually add up to it (or decrease it) until it reaches the actual level. While it doesn't alleviate the issue completely, it would give the player a visual cue that he's about to get exposed.

Thank you very much! The sounds I just got from freesound as a pack, so they will change, just did not want to put time into that now. But I will check the pitch randomization and see i fit sound better with a more narrow range!

That is totally correct, and the problem you describe is also on target. Did not really see it as a problem but you are right, I will add that feature first thing since it gives the player that little extra heads up, and it is more realistic since hard shadows are really rare (unless black body walls surround the light, then you will have no reflection, and you will also have to be in a vacuum to avoid particle scattering).

 

[jcd]

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