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Game News Civ V free to play this weekend

Joined
Nov 19, 2009
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3,144
Civ V is easily the best civ game due only to the fact that they fixed the horrible civ combat with the introduction of hexes and the 1 unit per tile rule.

Of course it's completely unplayable due to (1) the AI being incredibly, totally broken (after all these updates, the AI still doesn't have the slightest clue how the combat system works, no matter the difficulty) and (2) Multiplayer being completely broken. If they fix either it'd be an amazing game.
 

PorkaMorka

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Feb 19, 2008
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Civilization games were typically more boring than the competition in the 4x genre but they offered an AI that could provide a good challenge in single player, as long as it got massive bonuses. Meanwhile, games that are full of cool stuff like MOO2 and MOM make it much easier to find tricks to exploit the AI and win easily on higher difficulties.

One unit per tile is one of the all time bad decisions for a franchise kind of like combining Axe and Scimitar in Grimoire because it undermines the main strength of the Civilization franchise relative to the competition; challenging single player against an AI with massive bonuses.

Note that in all the thousands of times that Panzer General was cloned, nobody ever managed to make an AI that was actually good at handling one unit per tile. Panzer General AIs are always very limited and they only provide a challenge because of carefully scripted puzzle maps. That crutch is not available to the AI in Civilization.
 

Eyeball

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Sep 3, 2010
Messages
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Playing this currently. Has a lot of good ideas and an equal number of stunningly bad ones, chief of which is the interface. Playing with one of those "more civics options and whatnot" mods, so I really like the RPG-like skill tree you can use for customising your Civ.

Combat is weird as hell this time around and the promotion system is more fucky than ever. One unit per tile limit? NO ME GUSTA!
 
Joined
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One unit per tile is one of the all time bad decisions for a franchise kind of like combining Axe and Scimitar in Grimoire because it undermines the main strength of the Civilization franchise relative to the competition; challenging single player against an AI with massive bonuses.

Combat in civ was "challenging" in about the same way that combat in Risk is challenging. The only challenge came not in the combat itself but resource management to make sure that your pile of units was better/bigger than the opponent's.

But I agree with you in one respect: if you bother implementing an actual combat system, at least take the time to let you AI know you're doing so. It's very nice that unit placement now matters and all, but if the AI doesn't understand that this is the case and consistently sends its archers in front of its pikemen into battle then every fight becomes extremely easy.
 

tuluse

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Serpent in the Staglands Divinity: Original Sin Project: Eternity Torment: Tides of Numenera Shadorwun: Hong Kong
The more I play Civ5 and think about it, the more I think one unit per tile was a terrible idea. Even if it offered more interesting and fun combat, it doesn't fit the rest of the game. Civ is supposed to be about high level abstractions, not micromanaging individual units. Making individual units as important as they are in Civ 5 is basically ruinous. Further it totally destroys any attempt at simulation. You can fit a city of 10 million people, with a militia, and a full size military unit in one hex, but remove the city and militia, and you can still only fit one unit.

There are so many better ways to fix the giant stack problem too. Just imagine Civ4 with a Paradox style supply mechanic, and then add civ specific style bonus to supply. Suddenly civs like Portugal and England are actually able to project their power globally better and it might actually be worth it to play a maritime civilization.
 
Joined
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The more I play Civ5 and think about it, the more I think one unit per tile was a terrible idea. Even if it offered more interesting and fun combat, it doesn't fit the rest of the game. Civ is supposed to be about high level abstractions, not micromanaging individual units. Making individual units as important as they are in Civ 5 is basically ruinous. Further it totally destroys any attempt at simulation. You can fit a city of 10 million people, with a militia, and a full size military unit in one hex, but remove the city and militia, and you can still only fit one unit.

There are so many better ways to fix the giant stack problem too. Just imagine Civ4 with a Paradox style supply mechanic, and then add civ specific style bonus to supply. Suddenly civs like Portugal and England are actually able to project their power globally better and it might actually be worth it to play a maritime civilization.

But the problem with the old system wasn't just the quantity issue, but also the fact that it just homogenized all the units to the point where it was just a question of whether a unit was better or worse than the other. And I'm pretty sure you couldn't combine the different unit types of Civ 5 with a stacking system. Paradox games like EU do have different unit types that stack but that only works because they all fight simultaneously; I suppose you could do something similar in Civ (i.e. construct your own unit with different unit sub-types and give them a formation in a single hex), but Firaxis knows that their appeal is simplicity so they wouldn't go for that.
 

tuluse

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Serpent in the Staglands Divinity: Original Sin Project: Eternity Torment: Tides of Numenera Shadorwun: Hong Kong
They've already done that. Army units in Civ3. I don't find that Civ4 units were any more homogenous than previous Civ games. They did add the promotion system, so you had some control over how similar or different your units are. Maybe you needed to experiment different promotions more?
 

Space Satan

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Given that compared to CivIV, CivV have vastly dumber AI dumber economy, most retarded Diplomacy in ALL Civ games and totally broken city management, I'd say - Fuck you!
Firaxis couldn't even fix city management for two years. In CivIV AI could reallocate citizens according to set priority(i.e. production, commerce) to avoid starvation, but CivV its all the way - move all citizens to prioritized resource and fuck the food!
they should pay me to play this game.
 

Metro

Arcane
Beg Auditor
Joined
Aug 27, 2009
Messages
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I've played every Civ game since the original on DOS and, in hindsight, I don't see any reason to keep playing past the third. 4 doesn't introduce enough new features that make anything more interesting or challenging. 5 homogenizes too much and I really don't care for what they did with culture and civics. If you buy anything during the final moments of this promotion just grab Civ 3 complete for $1.24.
 

Rahdulan

Omnibus
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Oct 26, 2012
Messages
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I've played every Civ game since the original on DOS and, in hindsight, I don't see any reason to keep playing past the third. 4 doesn't introduce enough new features that make anything more interesting or challenging. 5 homogenizes too much and I really don't care for what they did with culture and civics. If you buy anything during the final moments of this promotion just grab Civ 3 complete for $1.24.

I'd argue Civ4 is a good purchase solely for all the mods it has available, even if you don't seen any other reason than that.
 

Malakal

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Glory to Ukraine
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Nov 14, 2009
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Soooo, how about them mods, Guys? Anyone?

No mods game is not mod friendly. Only small ones. Dont expect another Dune Wars or Rise and Fall not to mention FfH.
Then fuck Civ5 and Firaxis. Mods like FfH and Dune Wars were the best selling point for Civ4. Why the hell would they remove modding support from Civ5? Are they really that stupid?

They prefer milking their players with single civ dlcs.
 
Joined
Nov 19, 2009
Messages
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They've already done that. Army units in Civ3.

Civ 3 is the one civ I never played, but from the description it doesn't look at all what I described; it just looks like a pooling together of the hitpoints/attack/defense rating of three units together.

I don't find that Civ4 units were any more homogenous than previous Civ games. They did add the promotion system, so you had some control over how similar or different your units are. Maybe you needed to experiment different promotions more?

Did the different promotions seriously affect the way you used them in the game, or did they just give you better units to put in your pile?
 

Absinthe

Arcane
Joined
Jan 6, 2012
Messages
4,062
Civ V is easily the best civ game due only to the fact that they fixed the horrible civ combat with the introduction of hexes and the 1 unit per tile rule.
Nope, the 1 unit per tile rule just created a different kind of horrible combat. You see, when a melee unit fights, both units take damage. When a ranged unit shoots, only the target takes damage. Regular melee and ranged units both have 2 movement points. You cannot attack when you are out of movement points, and regular units cannot move after attacking. Massive promotions can change this. A melee unit, therefore, can only attack a unit 2 tiles away, assuming there is no rough terrain. A ranged unit can move 1 tile, then shoot its 2 tiles (+1 with promotion) range. Therefore, when a melee unit wants to attack a ranged unit 3-4 tiles away, it first has to end a turn inside the ranged unit's range. The archer gets to shoot the melee, and if multiple archers, kill him before he does any damage. If the melee does manage to attack the archer, it also takes damage 'cause that's how melee combat works.

The average melee unit simply dies before it can do anything. Even in a 1v1 the melee won't really have the upper hand. Mounted units work against archers, but they still die fast to focus fire and eat damage when attacking 'cause that's how melee combat works. Also, mounted units take a penalty for attacking cities. Archers are king of combat. Gone are the doomstacks. In are the doomsquads.

Even though archers cannot conquer cities for some stupid reason, and even though archers do reduced damage against cities, the best strategy for attacking cities is still archers and 2 scouts* because archers do not take damage for attacking a city, and a scout, as a "melee" can autocapture it once the city hp reaches 1, and as a scout it does not take movement penalties for any terrain. You still need two scouts though, because the scout has to end a turn inside the city's ranged attack first, so 1 of them will probably die without being able to do anything (a high-level scout-specific promotion can give a bonus movepoint to capture from outside range). Generally speaking, you can tell a player is a noob if he actually tries to use a catapult, because assuming that fragile catapult even manages to get close unmolested, it still has to spend a move entering range (and the city's bombard range) and another move to set up (2 moves there, so out of actions). Then it takes a turn of city bombard + garrisoned archer and either dies or goes so low hp that its damage becomes laughable.

If you want to use non-archers, consider playing Persians, because the Persian Golden Age gives +1 movement and +10% combat strength to all units (also, Persian GAs last 50% longer). With that +1 move, suddenly you can ambush effectively. But I would still use archers as Persians.

*Exception for Hun battering rams, which do triple damage vs cities, cannot attack anything else, and take reduced damage from ranged. A ram could even 1shot a city from full if low population. Your main defense against a battering ram is to cockblock it with a unit so it cannot penetrate your city. Huns being what they are though, you can expect that defender to die against special Hun mounted archers.

Of course it's completely unplayable due to (1) the AI being incredibly, totally broken (after all these updates, the AI still doesn't have the slightest clue how the combat system works, no matter the difficulty) and (2) Multiplayer being completely broken. If they fix either it'd be an amazing game.
Yeah, I don't bother with AIs who cheat, get free wonders, and are vulnerable to idiot trades like borrowing gold before attacking, selling useless luxuries for huge gold, and just trading them for all their money so that the AI massing a huge army to attack now has no money and must disband due to negative gold per turn.

Multiplayer is actually playable. It still occasionally bugs, stalls, or crashes though.

They prefer milking their players with single civ dlcs.
Yep. Lack of mod support is bullshit. To be fair, you *can* mod Civ 5 as much as you like... if you enjoy singleplayer or play-by-email.

Civ 3 is the one civ I never played, but from the description it doesn't look at all what I described; it just looks like a pooling together of the hitpoints/attack/defense rating of three units together.
Civ 3 is fine. It basically pooled a bunch of Sid Meier's Alpha Centuari improvements back into regular civ. Alpha Centauri is still the best civ though.

Did the different promotions seriously affect the way you used them in the game, or did they just give you better units to put in your pile?
They actually did. With the right promotions units could attack more than once per turn, gain special bonuses ranged/mounted/armored/cities, heal every turn instead of needing to burn an entire turn for healing, and increase the heal-rate of adjacent units. So depending on promotions, units could become effective in different ways. But, most of the good promotions are high up so you're not going to see them unless you have a lot of war, are running the Honor social policy tree (okay for warmongering, bad for everything else - worst of the 3 starting trees), or it's lategame and you have enough barracks tiers to make them start with 3 levels worth of experience. Not to mention, when a unit levels on the battlefield, you are probably just going to burn that promotion for a 1time 50hp heal instead.
 

tuluse

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Jul 20, 2008
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Serpent in the Staglands Divinity: Original Sin Project: Eternity Torment: Tides of Numenera Shadorwun: Hong Kong
Civ 3 is the one civ I never played, but from the description it doesn't look at all what I described; it just looks like a pooling together of the hitpoints/attack/defense rating of three units together.
It wasn't exactly what you asked for, but it didn't do this either. HP was sort of pooled, but attack and defense were not. When you attacked the unit with the highest attack rating would go first, when 1/3 of the army's hp was gone (or something like this, it's been a while), the unit with the 2nd highest rating would tag in and start attacking, then the 3rd unit would be up when you lost 2/3 of the hp. When being attacked it chose the unit with the best defense. It was also context sensitive, so it took into account all bonuses when deciding the attack or defense value.

It's an idea that sounds cooler on paper than it was in game though. They pretty much needed a way to have attackers with big pools of hp because you could pump up defense values super high in cities. So all 3 (or 4) of your armies would either be 3 attacking units or 2 attacking and on defending unit.
 
Joined
Nov 19, 2009
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Nope, the 1 unit per tile rule just created a different kind of horrible combat. You see, when a melee unit fights, both units take damage. When a ranged unit shoots, only the target takes damage. Regular melee and ranged units both have 2 movement points. You cannot attack when you are out of movement points, and regular units cannot move after attacking. Massive promotions can change this. A melee unit, therefore, can only attack a unit 2 tiles away, assuming there is no rough terrain. A ranged unit can move 1 tile, then shoot its 2 tiles (+1 with promotion) range. Therefore, when a melee unit wants to attack a ranged unit 3-4 tiles away, it first has to end a turn inside the ranged unit's range. The archer gets to shoot the melee, and if multiple archers, kill him before he does any damage. If the melee does manage to attack the archer, it also takes damage 'cause that's how melee combat works.

The average melee unit simply dies before it can do anything. Even in a 1v1 the melee won't really have the upper hand. Mounted units work against archers, but they still die fast to focus fire and eat damage when attacking 'cause that's how melee combat works. Also, mounted units take a penalty for attacking cities. Archers are king of combat. Gone are the doomstacks. In are the doomsquads.

Even though archers cannot conquer cities for some stupid reason, and even though archers do reduced damage against cities, the best strategy for attacking cities is still archers and 2 scouts* because archers do not take damage for attacking a city, and a scout, as a "melee" can autocapture it once the city hp reaches 1, and as a scout it does not take movement penalties for any terrain. You still need two scouts though, because the scout has to end a turn inside the city's ranged attack first, so 1 of them will probably die without being able to do anything (a high-level scout-specific promotion can give a bonus movepoint to capture from outside range). Generally speaking, you can tell a player is a noob if he actually tries to use a catapult, because assuming that fragile catapult even manages to get close unmolested, it still has to spend a move entering range (and the city's bombard range) and another move to set up (2 moves there, so out of actions). Then it takes a turn of city bombard + garrisoned archer and either dies or goes so low hp that its damage becomes laughable.

I completely agree with you about Catapults - artillery really only becomes sensible by the modern age, when it starts shooting 3 hexes and is out of reach of the garrison (they should have done that starting with catapults already) - but I think you're overstating the case of archers being overpowered. Because the step back-fire exploit you mention only works in one very specific scenario: the archer standing in rough terrain and not having rough terrain in its back, but even then he has to assume (1) there are no adjacent roads for the melee unit to sneak up on you and (2) the melee unit himself isn't standing in rough terrain becoming nearly impervious to archers (though you can "fix" this with promoting your archers a couple of times). Though admittedly it could be that I just played too much of the game against AI and that's why I didn't really notice how overpowered archers were (in my experience only the English longbowmen were), because definitely against the AI's brilliant tactic of archers and catapults first, melee units are great.

Still, even if this is the case, I'm not sure how this is fundamentally the fault of the 1 tile rule. Is the step back shoot method an exploit? - make it impossible. Do archers do more damage than they should? - lessen it or make them do no damage when melee attacked.


Multiplayer is actually playable. It still occasionally bugs, stalls, or crashes though.

Then you're lucky. If you have somewhat unstable connections, like my friends and me have, then the game responds not by waiting for those losing a connection, but by booting them and requiring them to be reinvited - if it happens to the person who set up the game it was even worse. IIRC there's hundreds of pages in the Steam forums with complaints about this, because it just makes private games unplayable.
 

Zboj Lamignat

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Feb 15, 2012
Messages
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My story with CiV is very similar to the ones I had with HoM&M IV or NWN - it was so offensively bad on release that I can't even be bothered to check what they improved/fixed later on, too much butthurt accumulated within my wretched soul.
 

Hellraiser

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Warlock actually managed to have decent tactical AI on random maps despite also using the "one unit per hex" rule. Its problem was that on a strategic level it wasn't good enough to pose a challenge, individual skirmishes could have been quite tricky though.
 

Absinthe

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Jan 6, 2012
Messages
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I completely agree with you about Catapults - artillery really only becomes sensible by the modern age, when it starts shooting 3 hexes and is out of reach of the garrison (they should have done that starting with catapults already) - but I think you're overstating the case of archers being overpowered. Because the step back-fire exploit you mention only works in one very specific scenario: the archer standing in rough terrain and not having rough terrain in its back, but even then he has to assume (1) there are no adjacent roads for the melee unit to sneak up on you and (2) the melee unit himself isn't standing in rough terrain becoming nearly impervious to archers (though you can "fix" this with promoting your archers a couple of times). Though admittedly it could be that I just played too much of the game against AI and that's why I didn't really notice how overpowered archers were (in my experience only the English longbowmen were), because definitely against the AI's brilliant tactic of archers and catapults first, melee units are great.
Actually, the "move 1 tile out of marshes and shoot" tactic is only one of the stupid things archers can do against melees. What I was primarily talking about is this:
  1. Enemy melee outside archer's firing range (so 3 or more tiles away) wants to attack archer.
  2. Enemy uses 2 moves to approach archer, therefore is out of moves and must end turn.
  3. Archer can now fire on enemy melee (without receiving any damage).
  4. Nearby archers focus fire the enemy melee too.
  5. Enemy melee dies without doing a single point of damage.
So unless on a road, Persians in a Golden Age, Iroquois using friendly forests as roads, Incas on forested/jungle hill tiles (or regular hills vs ground archer), Carthage doing an insane melee attack through a Mountain (taking 50 dmg for ending turn on a mountain), or a melee with Woodsman promo (ie. Aztec Jaguars) through woods, your melee has to expose himself to a turn of archer fire before actually hitting the archer. And real players will use that turn to focus fire the threat to death instead of targeting separate things, so your melee dies without doing a point of damage. Focus firing with impunity is why archer doomsquads beat everything.

Still, even if this is the case, I'm not sure how this is fundamentally the fault of the 1 tile rule. Is the step back shoot method an exploit? - make it impossible. Do archers do more damage than they should? - lessen it or make them do no damage when melee attacked.
If it were me, I'd give melees attacks of opportunity for archers inside 1 tile range who try to shoot or disengage and give them march promotion access (heal every turn) earlier. But that's theoretical balance, which is irrelevant to the actual game balance. I'm not against 1 tile per unit. I'm against Civ 5's unbalanced implementation of it.

Then you're lucky. If you have somewhat unstable connections, like my friends and me have, then the game responds not by waiting for those losing a connection, but by booting them and requiring them to be reinvited - if it happens to the person who set up the game it was even worse. IIRC there's hundreds of pages in the Steam forums with complaints about this, because it just makes private games unplayable.
Oh yeah, hands down. If you have an unstable connection you're fucked for steam multiplayer. You'll probably have to use the Giant Multiplayer Robot for turn-based multiplayer Civ 5. Then again, GMR is a proper, turn-based multiplayer and does work with mods & scenarios, so all in all that's a much better Civ 5 game right there. GMR is definitely one of the things that rescues Civ 5.

Official multiplayer is simultaneous turns, no mods, and no scenarios; and, simultaneous Civ 5 turns makes multiplayer its own breed of clickfest tactics. Whoever focus fires the fastest can kill another unit before it could receive a heal promotion or before it could do damage. And then there's stuff like shift-moving which lets you queue a move to occur at end of turn (ie. when it cannot be responded to) and then immediately commanding them at the start of the new turn. Incidentally, this is how you should nail archers with melees in multiplayer.
 
Joined
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Messages
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Oh yeah, hands down. If you have an unstable connection you're fucked for steam multiplayer. You'll probably have to use the Giant Multiplayer Robot for turn-based multiplayer Civ 5. Then again, GMR is a proper, turn-based multiplayer and does work with mods & scenarios, so all in all that's a much better Civ 5 game right there. GMR is definitely one of the things that rescues Civ 5.

Official multiplayer is simultaneous turns, no mods, and no scenarios; and, simultaneous Civ 5 turns makes multiplayer its own breed of clickfest tactics. Whoever focus fires the fastest can kill another unit before it could receive a heal promotion or before it could do damage. And then there's stuff like shift-moving which lets you queue a move to occur at end of turn (ie. when it cannot be responded to) and then immediately commanding them at the start of the new turn. Incidentally, this is how you should nail archers with melees in multiplayer.

You know your stuff chief, and thanks for the tip! Will try it out as soon as possible .
 

Maiandros

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i will hazard a wild guess..you served in a special forces unit. Possibly multiple terms, as this is the only way to explain it. Your military expertise is beyond evident.
'Should' gets you dead. Know dead? He's the one you drag back while you are spraying vomit :)

Units operating heavy long range weaponry have certain vulnerabilities. Even those put aside, there is no 'should'. There is only the scenario. In retrospect
 

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