Interview Chris Avellone on time limits in games at Critical Path

[FeelTheRads]

It's funny that Surf Solar says that since AFAIK he's also a fan of Infinity Engine-style backgrounds which are also "modern 3D shit" (just prerendered)

For some reason I feel like this is trolling aimed at me.

WILL

NOT

FALL

FOR

IT

 

[Gakkone]

It's funny that Surf Solar says that since AFAIK he's also a fan of Infinity Engine-style backgrounds which are also "modern 3D shit" (just prerendered)

 

[Infinitron]

What? I just think it's a bit funny that a guy who's been so vocal in favor of IE-style graphics (disparaging Wasteland 2 for not having them, for instance) suddenly turns out to be a huge fan of tile-based graphics. I mean, you don't get much farther from tile-based than that. In contrast, early 3D RPGs like NWN were very tile-based.

 

[FeelTheRads]

What?

Maybe you and Draq should have an idea about you're talking about before doing it, because Fallout and Arcanum are also "modern 3D shit" (just prerendered).

 

[Infinitron]

What?

Maybe you and Draq should have an idea about you're talking about before doing it, because Fallout and Arcanum are also "modern 3D shit" (just prerendered).

Yes, the individual tiles are, but that's not the same thing as rendering an entire scene. Anyway, it's not central to my argument.

 

[FeelTheRads]

Yes, the individual tiles are, but that's not the same thing as rendering an entire scene.

It's way closer than comparing IE games to 3D. Which was your central argument.
And since they are also pre-rendered, your argument is null.

 

[Infinitron]

Yes, the individual tiles are, but that's not the same thing as rendering an entire scene.

It's way closer than comparing IE games to 3D. Which was your central argument.
And since they are also pre-rendered, your argument is null.

No, that's not my argument. My argument is that it's weird to champion tile-based graphics and the anti-thesis of tile-based graphics at the same time. Similarity to realtime 3D or lack thereof is a secondary issue.

 

[Gakkone]

Dude, I don't tink Surf particularly champions tile-based graphics (where the hell did you get that from?) but 2D graphics in general (yes, that includes pre-rendered 3D).

 

[Infinitron]

Dude, I don't tink Surf particularly champions tile-based graphics (where the hell did you get that from?) but 2D graphics in general (yes, that includes pre-rendered 3D).

Maybe so, but Draq was only arguing against tiles, not against 2D.

 

[Gakkone]

Dude, I don't tink Surf particularly champions tile-based graphics (where the hell did you get that from?) but 2D graphics in general (yes, that includes pre-rendered 3D).

Maybe so, but Draq was only arguing against tiles, not against 2D.

He was saying Arcanum's graphics are shit, Surf disagreed. That's the extent of their discussion.

 

[DraQ]

Maybe you and Draq should have an idea about you're talking about before doing it, because Fallout and Arcanum are also "modern 3D shit" (just prerendered).

Maybe Surf Solar should?

Dude, I don't tink Surf particularly champions tile-based graphics (where the hell did you get that from?) but 2D graphics in general (yes, that includes pre-rendered 3D).

Maybe so, but Draq was only arguing against tiles, not against 2D.

Not even that, I think you could make a tileset that would work well for Arcanum. The problem is that it isn't present *IN* Arcanum and even if it was, bad location design would prevent it from shining.

 

[Andyman Messiah]

Can somebody please tell me how Infinitron, one of the dumbest fucks presently on the Codex, achieved *staff* status?
What ungodly devious fellatio techniques does he possess? Is *staff* innuendo for *penis*?

 

[Infinitron]

Can somebody please tell me how Infinitron, one of the dumbest fucks presently on the Codex, achieved *staff* status?
What ungodly devious fellatio techniques does he possess? Is *staff* innuendo for *penis*?

Uh, I gave them my secret recipes for horse meat? But wait, that doesn't work, horse isn't kosher.

Question: Do you agree that one of the main reasons there was such a backlash against early 3D games such as NWN is that their tile-based aesthetic was seen as a step back from the graphical fidelity achieved by the prerendered 2D games that preceded them? Not the only reason, mind you, but a major one, perhaps the main reason?

 

[EG]

Tell me, are Arcanum's tiles and character animations a higher resolution than Fallout's? I have a feeling that'd be the cause for the "plastic" feel . . .

 

[Clockwork Knight]

Can somebody please tell me how Infinitron, one of the dumbest fucks presently on the Codex, achieved *staff* status?
What ungodly devious fellatio techniques does he possess? Is *staff* innuendo for *penis*?

The Most Fisted

 

[Andyman Messiah]

Can somebody please tell me how Infinitron, one of the dumbest fucks presently on the Codex, achieved *staff* status?
What ungodly devious fellatio techniques does he possess? Is *staff* innuendo for *penis*?

Uh, I gave them my secret recipes for horse meat? But wait, that doesn't work, horse isn't kosher.

Question: Do you agree that one of the main reasons there was such a backlash against early 3D games such as NWN is that their tile-based aesthetic was seen as a step back from the graphical fidelity achieved by the prerendered 2D games that preceded them? Not the only reason, mind you, but a major one, perhaps the main reason?

Like anybody is going to find out it's horse meat without an expensive microscope and extensive dna testing. As we say in Sweden; eat your fucking lasagna and be quiet, swinefucker.

Answer: First of all I don't consider NWN "early 3d" in the meaning of "early 3d". It's actually one of the prettiest "early 3d" games. That said, you're talking to the wrong motherfucker. Early 3d is only ugly in retro-perspective. If you grew up with it I don't think there's a problem. I hated NWN because because story and gameplay-wise it was a step backwards when compared to Baldur's Gate 2, which I really liked. I really don't care what games look like as long as they don't like Dwarf Fortress.

 

[FeelTheRads]

Do you agree that one of the main reasons there was such a backlash against early 3D games such as NWN is that their tile-based aesthetic was seen as a step back from the graphical fidelity achieved by the prerendered 2D games that preceded them? Not the only reason, mind you, but a major one, perhaps the main reason?

Absolutely not. Tile based is not the main reason. Looking like shit is the main reason. Tiles can look great. The tiles in NWN were horrendous which gave the game a horrendous look.
So yeah, Surf Solar did not refer to tiles vs. no-tiles. That's only in your head.

 

[Rake]

Do you agree that one of the main reasons there was such a backlash against early 3D games such as NWN is that their tile-based aesthetic was seen as a step back from the graphical fidelity achieved by the prerendered 2D games that preceded them? Not the only reason, mind you, but a major one, perhaps the main reason?

Absolutely not. Tile based is not the main reason. Looking like shit is the main reason. Tiles can look great. The tiles in NWN were horrendous which gave the game a horrendous look.
So yeah, Surf Solar did not refer to tiles vs. no-tiles. That's only in your head.

Shadowrun Returns uses tiles, but i haven't seen anyone complain about that. If the game looks good, it looks good.

 

[Roguey]

Shadowrun Returns's tiles are vgl.

It didn't help that Fallout had 9 fulltime artists with 11 part-timers whereas Arcanum had 6 "full-timers" (who also had many other duties) with 2 part-timers working on something with a significantly larger scope.

 

[Surf Solar]

It's funny that Surf Solar says that since AFAIK he's also a fan of Infinity Engine-style backgrounds which are also "modern 3D shit" (just prerendered)

Ah yes I forgot, arcanums sprites and tiles were obviously hand painted pixel per pixel instead of prerendered, rite

I was talking about 3d First person games which make Draqs dick hard, he also spoke out numerous times how 2d/isometric games are inherently inferior

tards gonna tard indeed

 

[Infinitron]

I was talking about 3d First person games which make Draqs dick hard, he also spoke out numerous times how 2d/isometric games are inherently inferior

OK. Well, at least we got an interesting(?) sidetrack discussion out of it.

 

[EG]

Half Life, Halo, Dues Ex, all very shit polygon-plastic shit compared even to Arcanum's smooth assets.

At least it didn't have the kinda-weird "wideness" that so much of PlaneScape: Torment has.

 

[Azrael the cat]

For me, a lot of the problems with time limits in the macro game arise because of a bad combination of (a) developers WANTING to arise above basic worldbuilding/dungeoneering into interactive storytelling, and (b) forgetting either the interactive part (leave this aside, it's been explored enough elsewhere), and (c) FAILING to arise above the basic 'save the world' story genres that motivated the early dungeoneering games that they hold in contempt.

There's a story/game mismatch - the approach that bioware, bethesda et al would be fine if we were still talking Wizardry style crawlers. No need for story branching, and the minimal amount they give, combined with some optional hiking simulation, would be all you need. But if they're serious about story in gaming, then they need to start at least attempting to get a serious grip on storytelling - in both its interactive and historical aspects. Firstly, unlike a game, if you want a story aspect to be memorable, sometimes you need to say 'fuck you' to an element of your fanbase. No, you can't open FFG's journal. No, you can't return to the Vault and live happily ever after. No, you can't live forever as TNO, writing all the wrongs of Sigil while you're at it. People might fucking cry about that shit at the time - but they'll remember it LONG after they've forgotten all the times when the game bent to their every whim.

That doesn't mean strip out choice - the examples I gave only have impact BECAUSE they're in a setting where the player gets to choose a lot. Otherwise they'd just be arbitrary streamlining - as they are, they DO involve a bit of streamlining, but it isn't arbitrary, it's genre-setting. PS:T is one of the few crpgs that is willing to play with the genre of tragedy (plenty of adventure games used to do it back in the day, but few crpgs) - and I mean that in the classic sense, not the 'haha you got a shit ending' sense. In calling PS:T a tragedy, I don't actually think the ending is even a sad one - TNO gets what he wants, he rescues his companions and breaks the curse of torment (or might have done...FFG's promise to spend eternity looking for him hints that maybe the companions have already spent too long around TNO to escape the curse). But nor do I think that Hamlet or MacBeth have 'sad' endings. Hamlet goes out like a fucking boss - he returns, finally taking responsibility for everything he's done, and despite Horatio urging him not to enter the dual, he insists on it BECAUSE he knows it's a trap, and that it's time to bring all the chaos that he's wrought to an end - and that this is probably the last chance he's going to get to both do that AND get his vengeance.

PS:T is a tragedy in the classic sense because the hero's flaws bring down harm upon those around him, and his journey is about making things right (yeah, that's not how the Greek tragedies work, but I never liked the whole 'fated tragedy' story genre, and prefer the Elizabethan/Victorian versions). It captures one of the aspects of Hamlet-style tragedy very very literally - by making the main character both the hero and the villain (though not necessarily the antagonist) - TTO is a separate enough entity to TNO that it's a different 'antagonist' to TNO, but so much of the game is TNO crossing paths with events that are very much of HIS making, not TTO's.

I'm not saying we should have fuckloads of games following that style, and that's only one way of doing a tragedy anyway, but at least SOME genre mixing should be a pre-requisite before even thinking about making a game story-driven.

Even SS2 - while it DOES go into 'save the world' mode, spices things up a lot by having the dual collectivist/utopian v individualist/authoritarian pair of antagonists. Great game, but frankly I think the endgame would have paid off a lot more on the various interactions you have with the Many if it had some element of chioce, Deus Ex style, where you had to actually deal with the consequences of having handed the keys to a military ship to fucking Shodan, or if at the end of the game your rescuers actually reacted in horror in a manner in keeping with all the references to you being somewhat other than human after all thoes implants.

 

[DraQ]

Can somebody please tell me how Infinitron, one of the dumbest fucks presently on the Codex, achieved *staff* status?

Uh, I gave them my secret recipes for horse meat? But wait, that doesn't work, horse isn't kosher.

Question: Do you agree that one of the main reasons there was such a backlash against early 3D games such as NWN is that their tile-based aesthetic was seen as a step back from the graphical fidelity achieved by the prerendered 2D games that preceded them? Not the only reason, mind you, but a major one, perhaps the main reason?

I'd say that the problem with 3D is that early 3D was very blocky and undetailed compared to its contemporary 2D and 2.5D.
It generally looked much better in motion (because it could animate smoothly), but in stills it was just plain shitty. It also failed to support complex animations with pre-baked lighting effects - while animations in general worked better because they were smooth, you couldn't have, for example an enemy burst open in fountain of gore and collapse into a heap of guts and broken bones, or robot break and collapse into a pile of scrap lit up by explosions and electric arcs from the inside.

Also, whoever considers NWN to be *early* 3D is a dumb twat.

As for tiles, they aren't inherently bad, but they may cause problems. Generally if you have too much tiles in your view at once, you start noticing repetitiveness of scenery, which is bad.
You can also use tiling only part of the time and independently of mechanics actually involving discrete movement.

In any case, Arcanum's problems have little to do with tiling itself.

Tell me, are Arcanum's tiles and character animations a higher resolution than Fallout's? I have a feeling that'd be the cause for the "plastic" feel . . .

That's probably one of the main causes - more resolution but with the same amount of detail.

When you looked at Fallout closely you could see details all the way down to the pixels.
If you look at Arcanum, details end way before pixels start - so you could say that Arcanum looks bad largely due to the same reasons early 3D does - which is amusing if you consider stupid dolts holding arcanum visuals in high esteem but dismissing any and all 3D.

Then there is issue of tiles, sprites and areas using them not really conveying either splendor or squallor they should.

Lastly, it might be related to dev team not feeling their setting. Fallout was typically American setting done by American team. You couldn't really expect Europeans making good Fallout that would feel right. OTOH eastern Europeans made STALKER, and imagininig kwanzanian doing STALKER would be just no.
Quasi-victorian steampunk is very definitely not an American setting. Maybe if Arcanum was done by Brits instead, or at least had Brits leading tilework, spritework, area design and some of setting's lore, it would have worked better.

 

[tuluse]

I always got a 19th century America vibe from Arcanum. The railroad bringing together a vast, sparsely populated continent. The manifest destiny overtones (somewhat subverted because it's all the old races seeing it happen, and the humans don't really give fuck, but they keep going anyways). Very clear and obvious allusions to westerns.