Incline Chris Avellone Appreciation Station

[Roguey]

Roguey, talking about writers, how do you feel about Eric Fenstermaker coming on board to write Eder?

That seemed like a given to me from the start.

 

[laclongquan]

racofer OC

> Implying Brian has ever actually created anything.



EDIT:
Lol J_C - Your anger makes me
\/

IF he lose that T to change to Immoral, it would have made an instant meme~

 

[Fairfax]

PoE was supposed to be Sawyer's PS:T

That's a shit analogy.
PoE was intentionally designed as a cookie-cutter BG successor (a franchise Sawyer didn't even particularily like) for the sake of nostalgia-bait and playing it safe, is wastly different from his dream rpg (a historical TB darklands-loveletter), and Sawyer himself wrote practically nothing besides lore and Pallegina.
His role in it was the polar opposite of MCA's "100% Free Reins Dream-RPG à la Storyfaggotry Deluxe with Übermensch Black Isle Team and a whole year spent on writing in pre-production"-PST.

If anything, New Vegas was Sawyer's PS:T.

There are many parallels:

They were Project Lead (de facto in MCA's case) and Lead Designer in their respective games.
They both pitched the game in the first place.
I don't want to say strong suit because that's subjective, but they did most of the work related to what they're known for: MCA wrote most of PS:T, Sawyer designed PoE's systems and lore.
Similar team size (~20 folks for most of the development cycle).
Both had a lot of creative freedom (though Sawyer had a lot more).
IE x IE-like experience.
A lot of PS:T's design was what MCA had to say about CRPGs in general, and the same goes for Sawyer and PoE.

Sure, Sawyer's dream RPG would've been "a historical TB darklands-loveletter" instead, but PS:T wasn't necessarily MCA's dream RPG either. MCA was using an existing setting, engine and ruleset. That's not "100% free rein". Sawyer had a lot more freedom (and time) to make something that fits his taste.

Anyway, my point was that the differences between PS:T and PoE explain why MCA is more popular, and that dying wolves in Arcanum has nothing to do with it.

 

[Quillon]

Both had a lot of creative freedom (though Sawyer had a lot more).

Was PS:T trying to capture the same feeling of 20 year old games in style, setting and gameplay? And did it get judged by the nostalgic fuckers who played the 20 year old games, only remembering the good things about those games they played in their teens when they didn't know better? While they prolly let MCA go wild in those days of Interplay.

Sawyer had a lot more freedom (and time) to make something that fits his taste.

PoE haven't been made on an engine like IE on which similar games had already been developed by a very collaborative studio. Also game development time has been significantly increased since then while writing speed should be the same, depending on who is writing And he tried to make something that he thought fits "your" taste, not his.

Sawyer's PST my ass. And this is Sawyer's Fallout(1) also, right?

Still PoE is turning out better by the day.

 

[Fairfax]

Sure, Sawyer's dream RPG would've been "a historical TB darklands-loveletter" instead, but PS:T wasn't necessarily MCA's dream RPG either. MCA was using an existing setting, engine and ruleset. That's not "100% free rein". Sawyer had a lot more freedom (and time) to make something that fits his taste.

No, it's the exact opposite. MCA had the freedom to write whichever story he wanted as long as it was within the Planescape universe (which like all tabletop settings is built around around the idea of giving storytellers/GMs immeasurable freedom), while Sawyer was forced to make the whole game a BG-clone and ride the nostalgia-fueled kickstarter wave to ensure that the company wouldn't go under, which massively restricted the design of both setting and gameplay.

Forced? That's an excuse people came up with to justify the game's shortcomings. Sawyer pitched Project Eternity in the first place. The IE revival angle, the setting, RtwP, D&D races and classes, etc were all part of it. He wanted to make a game like that, they didn't force him. There were other pitches as well (including one by Tim Cain), they didn't have to go with his either.

 

[Background Character]

Looking at this from another side, wouldn't this make PoE more of "it's own game" instead of a 1-1 clone of BG?

I mean in PoE 2 I figured you'll be a pirate/sailor thing and visit many islands chasing the guy who stole your soul while BG2 mostly happened in a city until you got a on a ship and went to a pirate island and the nto an asylum and then you may have gone to a underwater city and I forgot where I was going with this

 

[Infinitron]

I don't think it's really meaningful to call a game "somebody's PS:T" unless it's a game where they poured in all their story ideas that they'd been thinking about for years, which is what truly sets PS:T apart in my opinion.

 

[Quillon]

Forced? That's an excuse people came up with to justify the game's shortcomings. Sawyer pitched Project Eternity in the first place. The IE revival angle, the setting, RtwP, D&D races and classes, etc were all part of it. He wanted to make a game like that, they didn't force him. There were other pitches as well (including one by Tim Cain), they didn't have to go with his either.

You're confusing story pitches with style of game to kickstart - pitch which they all agreed on and Eric's story won over MCA's and Tim's.

 

[Roguey]

They both pitched the game in the first place.

Sawyer pitched Project Eternity in the first place.

You've misremembered, "spiritual successor to the Infinity Engine games" was Adam Brennecke's pitch. Sawyer's pitch was rejected for being too weird.

 

[Abu Antar]

They both pitched the game in the first place.

Sawyer pitched Project Eternity in the first place.

You've misremembered, "spiritual successor to the Infinity Engine games" was Adam Brennecke's pitch. Sawyer's pitch was rejected for being too weird.

I was going to say that but I was afraid that I was not remembering correctly.

 

[Irenaeus]

He had no patience to learn how to properly interact with the UI.

This is basically my grip with the new MCA. He regressed to a millennial teenager mindset in almost everything in his life.

It's sad and pathetic.

 

[Irenaeus]

How is exactly is PoE2 being casualized?

Per-encounter spells for wizards, priests, and druids, and the removal of health. That was the final straw, I was already unhappy with five characters instead of six, and the replacement of good writers with mediocre/lousy ones.

Also, no MCA writing.

 

[Irenaeus]

racofer OC

> Implying Brian has ever actually created anything.



EDIT:
Lol J_C - Your anger makes me
\/

IF he lose that T to change to Immoral, it would have made an instant meme~

You don't know shit about how memes are created.

 

[Irenaeus]

Sure, Sawyer's dream RPG would've been "a historical TB darklands-loveletter" instead, but PS:T wasn't necessarily MCA's dream RPG either. MCA was using an existing setting, engine and ruleset. That's not "100% free rein". Sawyer had a lot more freedom (and time) to make something that fits his taste.

No, it's the exact opposite. MCA had the freedom to write whichever story he wanted as long as it was within the Planescape universe (which like all tabletop settings is built around around the idea of giving storytellers/GMs immeasurable freedom)

He was largely inspired by that book with the maze. Not saying it's a bad story, just pointing out the obvious.

 

[Fairfax]

You're confusing story pitches with style of game to kickstart - pitch which they all agreed on and Eric's story won over MCA's and Tim's.

They had multiple pitches for the Kickstarter itself as well. MCA said in a recent interview that he only learned about Tim Cain's pitch after he left Obsidian.

You've misremembered, "spiritual successor to the Infinity Engine games" was Adam Brennecke's pitch. Sawyer's pitch was rejected for being too weird.

What I remember is:
Sawyer kept trying to convince them to do a Kickstarter, most partners were against it (MCA was in favour), things got heated, Sawyer threatened to quit, etc. They eventually agreed to work on a potential Kickstarter, which Brennecke did with Sawyer, while Sawyer also pitched stuff to publishers. Publishers didn't want any of it, so they went with the KS.

If the IE angle was 100% Brennecke's, that makes the context more similar to PS:T, since MCA was also restricted by the AD&D ruleset and BG-like gameplay.

 

[Quillon]

There is nothing to remember; just open up road to eternity on youtube, they were in a room and couple of people had the same idea then they all agreed on it. This wasn't a "let's make our dream games" meeting(it prolly turned out to be for Adam), it was a "What would be successful on kickstarter?" meeting to save the fookin company.

 

[Background Character]

Also, no MCA writing.

I thought PoE barely had any, didn't they cut more than half of Grieving Mom including her maze and another good chunk of Durance?

 

[Fairfax]

Regardless of how much he influenced the concept, there's no way Sawyer wasn't fully on board with the whole pitch and was forced to be Project Lead, Lead Designer and Lead Systems Designer, write a companion and create most of the lore. It may not be his dream RPG, but it's very much a Sawyer game.

Also, no MCA writing.

I thought PoE barely had any, didn't they cut more than half of Grieving Mom including her maze and another good chunk of Durance?

According to MCA, they cut 3/4 of the content he wrote.

 

[Quillon]

Regardless of how much he influenced the concept, there's no way Sawyer wasn't fully on board with the whole pitch and was forced to be Project Lead, Lead Designer and Lead Systems Designer, write a companion and create most of the lore. It may not be his dream RPG, but it's very much a Sawyer game.

Yeah but it didn't have the creative freedom like you suggested or more creative freedom than MCA had.

Deadfire will be more creatively free tho with less generic setting, less crowdfund promises, less tech hurdles & Sawyer is also narrative lead this time.

 

[ga♥]

Who was Lead narrative on PoE? Who decided to cut MCA's work?

 

[Quillon]

Eric Fenstermaker was lead, he and/or producers and/or Josh could have cut what's going in the game.

And they did it out of spite and jealousy of MCA's work is what you want to hear.

 

[ga♥]

And they did it out of spite and jealousy of MCA's work is what you want to hear.

Behead who disrespects MCA (pbuh).

P.S I am joking obviously :D

 

[Fairfax]

Regardless of how much he influenced the concept, there's no way Sawyer wasn't fully on board with the whole pitch and was forced to be Project Lead, Lead Designer and Lead Systems Designer, write a companion and create most of the lore. It may not be his dream RPG, but it's very much a Sawyer game.

Yeah but it didn't have the creative freedom like you suggested or more creative freedom than MCA had.

Deadfire will be more creatively free tho with less generic setting, less crowdfund promises, less tech hurdles & Sawyer is also narrative lead this time.

Well, he did have the opportunity to create a brand new ruleset and setting. To be fair, the KS pitch was pretty vague, so part of the restrictions were up for the debate, and the team had a lot more pressure on them. Some argue that Sawyer had to do something like FR, use D&D classes and races, etc. Would they have got backlash if they didn't try to replicate that first and foremost? Absolutely, but the game was criticized by some for sticking too close to D&D anyway. There was no perfect solution, it was an inherent issue with the pitch.

Eric Fenstermaker was lead, he and/or producers and/or Josh could have cut what's going in the game.

And they did it out of spite and jealousy of MCA's work is what you want to hear.

Eric Fenstermake. He explained the cuts in his Codex interview:

Chris Avellone created the initial versions of Durance and the Grieving Mother, but then they were cut and passed on to you and Carrie Patel, under circumstances which remain unclear. Since they're such distinctive characters, the widespread assumption among fans is that most of their writing is still his (you seem to agree), although he's reluctant to take credit for them. Can you tell us your side of this story? What was changed about these two companions and why?

I don't know about "my side of the story." I can tell you the extent of my work on Durance. I wrote (if I'm remembering right) some of his environmental reactivity (like, for example, what does he say when he sees a dragon or the Grieving Mother drowning in a pool of blood), and then all of his banter with other companions, and his interjections into other conversations. I also gave the player an opportunity to call him out on his self-deception and hypocrisy, because it seemed to me that some players would want to, and that they might be more inclined to keep him in their party if they could, despite him being not the nicest guy. I had to make some minor edits to get everything to line up and make sense when his dialogue was pared down for length, but not a whole lot. Chris chose what to cut, and it was fairly clean - there was a layer that could be removed without losing the base of the character. Carrie's work on the Grieving Mother would've been similar, though I'm not sure the specifics.

The cuts came for length. The three limiting factors were time to implement, art resources for the dream sequences, and VO budget. There was a target length we had set upfront for all companions, and we had to stick to it. Otherwise we'd be, for example, voicing maybe one out of every six lines for Durance and the Grieving Mother, and it'd be conspicuously incongruent with the other companions, who had maybe 2/3 of their lines voiced. Unfortunately in this case it meant cutting down characters that had had a lot of research and creative energy invested in them, and there were some good ideas there that it would've been interesting to explore. It was a shitty thing to have to do, but we'd never have been able to implement the original versions in time to ship.

He didn't say who decided to cut that content, however.

 

[ga♥]

Fairfax, I think I read some months ago about a possible MCA Codex interview. Is that still a thing?

 

[Fairfax]

Fairfax, I think I read some months ago about a possible MCA Codex interview. Is that still a thing?

Yes. It's a back and forth via email, and MCA is busy with all these projects, so it'll take a while.