Bros, New Vegas is painful

[ImmoralMechanic]

I thought Lanius was supposed to be very capable leader, even if way more violent.

What I liked about Caesar was that he was supposed to be a well educated student of history who figured the Roman model was the best option in the current situation. Lanius is just some psycho dude who thrives in the system Caesar made.

I haven't done a CL-allied playthrough with Caesar dead, though, so I might have missed some stuff.

 

[Overweight Manatee]

Edward, have you found Vault 11 yet? If not, go there before you drop the game for whatever reason. That place was amazing.

Otherwise I don't have much to add that hasn't already been said. Bethesda can't make game engines for shit and Obsidian is not known for their ability to provide masterfully designed gameplay, so the game was doomed to have a kind of B-grade quality to it from the start. Caesar's Legion felt a bit silly and IMO the archtype should have been giving to a powerful 3rd party to the conflict rather than the main players, but it fits right in with Fallout 2 so whatever.

 

[Mister Arkham]

I always thought that the Legion was an interesting notion, and with a little bit more development they could have served as a really effective foil/alternative to the NCR. They are obviously rushed though...the sad end result of someone returning to a half-finished idea ten years after the idea was first had. I do hate the visual aspect of them though. I can understand and would even expect some Roman influences and trappings to be mixed into their Tribal stuff, they shun most technology after all, but the designers took it too far, I think. It went beyond being an interesting visual cue and became something cartoonish and out of place.

 

[Mister Arkham]

Edward, have you found Vault 11 yet? If not, go there before you drop the game for whatever reason. That place was amazing.

Yes. Do this at the very least. Vault 11 might be one of the best thought out and best executed vaults in any Fallout title.

 

[Imbecile]

It's a good game. Combat isn't good, but the atmosphere similar to Fallout, pretty good dialogues and quests make this game awesome.

Agreed. I actually thought Fallouts combat was lousy, but liked the game in spite of it. New Vegas is similar in that respect.

 

[Azrael the cat]

I always thought that the Legion was an interesting notion, and with a little bit more development they could have served as a really effective foil/alternative to the NCR. They are obviously rushed though...the sad end result of someone returning to a half-finished idea ten years after the idea was first had. I do hate the visual aspect of them though. I can understand and would even expect some Roman influences and trappings to be mixed into their Tribal stuff, they shun most technology after all, but the designers took it too far, I think. It went beyond being an interesting visual cue and became something cartoonish and out of place.

I liked what they did, but it really needed more time spent on showing how fucked things will be if anarchy arises. The idea of people accepting an incredibly brutal regime as an alternative to anarchy is perfectly reasonable, and interesting. CL are basically the Taliban in that respect. Folks in Afghanistan hated the Taliban, and even under Islamic and tribal culture the Taliban's rules were viewed as fucked up....but there was just so much inter-tribal confict, and so much random gang violence, rapes and thefts that no-one could do anything about due to lack of an effective police force, that people supported the Taliban because at least it meant that there was relative peace and folks could actually live without worrying about thugs driving them out of their homes.

CL basically runs on the same premise - have a setting where democratic government is arguably impossible, and every attempt at democratic government leads to corruption, hypocracy and moral decline, and it becomes plausible that a significant proportion of folks will accept a more brutal regime if they think it has a better chance of surviving and fending off anarchy.

For that to work, though, you really need to drill into the player just how bad things will be if the region falls into anarchy. They should have had a section of the game where it shows a no-mans-land which both sides have abandoned due to lack of strategic importance; where gangs, interfamily conflict, random lawlessness and no means of distributing goods leads to famine, poisoning of resources (water, cropland etc) and the region going to waste because no-one can safely run a farm without someone else fucking them over. CL would seem like a much more feasible choice if anarchy was a looming greater evil.

Giving them a few more positive attributes wouldn't hurt either. Not talking about making them less brutal, but perhaps having them work better with the local customs, so that they get more of a grassroots connection to the locals (again, like the Taliban vs the attempts at more centralised government in Afghanistan).

 

[King Crispy]

Said this before, but I also think Obsidian could've gotten a lot more mileage out of NV if they had not completely pussied out on the scarcity of things like food, water, and ammo.

I played in "Hardcore" mode expecting a challenge. When you're able to find edible food out in the desert every 10 seconds of walking, are able to drink non-lethal water out of every toilet you find and can easily locate so much ammunition that you literally can't carry all of it, that tends to take the bite out of the "challenge".

It's needless to say survival in itself can lend a lot to gameplay and provide the onus to go on that Edward and most of the rest of us seem to have been denied.

 

[Overweight Manatee]

Players' notions of Caesar's Legion probably could have shifted notions a lot if you had the option of visiting some CL homeland areas beyond the current playable area and found that their brutal regime made for a VERY lawful and prosperous civilian populus. As it is, all you really see is their military trying to secure a very highly valuable region from the occupying NCR. By its very nature any invading army is going to show very poorly on the morality scale even before you add in the burning and pillaging of settlements.

Said this before, but I also think Obsidian could've gotten a lot more mileage out of NV if they had not completely pussied out on the scarcity of things like food, water, and ammo.

I played in "Hardcore" mode expecting a challenge. When you're able to find edible food out in the desert every 10 seconds of walking, are able to drink non-lethal water out of every toilet you find and can easily locate so much ammunition that you literally can't carry all of it, that tends to take the bite out of the "challenge".

It's needless to say survival in itself can lend a lot to gameplay and provide the onus to go on that Edward and most of the rest of us seem to have been denied.

This also could have been integrated better into the quests and storyline. The NCR is supposed to be an overextended force that can barely hold out against the Caesar's Legion that is cutting off their supply lines and essentially trying to starve them out. You never really have to act upon this either way though.

 

[thursdayschild]

It's a great game, despite the Bethesda-ness.

The combat is a bit retarded, yes. Energy weapons are almost useless, except for the Gauss Rifle, whereas the various types of Power Fists are stupidly overpowered. 2-3 Hits from one can kill you even with power armor (which is also far less effective) on.

Although for me the worst thing isn't the combat, it's the way they fucked around with the canon again. Like the OP says, Caesar's Legion just being retconned in as a major threat is a bit retarded. Then there's the NCR itself. In Fallout 2 they all have Bazors and blow the crap out of everyone, while in NV they have weak-ass pea-shooters. In Dead Money (which is a really good add-on IMO), they mention cars being "gas guzzlers" in some of the Sierra Madre's logs. WTF?? In Fallout 2 it's widely known that the cars ran on Micro Fusion Cells before the war.

The point is, yes there are flaws, but overall it's much closer to the Fallout atmosphere than that piece of shit "Fallout" 3 was. For me, the game gets better the farther you go, the beginning is a bit slow. Kind of like... Fallout. And there are LOTS of places to explore on the world map. Also, Dead Money is awesome, but be prepared for a struggle to survive, depending on your skills. It's quite different from the rest of the game. Definitely worth the $2 (I think) I paid for it on the Steam Summer Sale.

edit: The part with the ghoulified NCR (Torchlight I think) doesn't need to involve much combat, you can just hack the turrets to blow the crap out of them and explore the town, etc. Can't remember if there's a lot of stuff to find though, more just backstory about the war.

About half the game's plot and lore centres around how/why NCR has degenerated from the strength it had in FO2:
- firstly, some folks mention that NCR is STILL much stronger, and more modern, in the area where it started, and that the New Vegas region is something of a wild frontier - Caesar's Legion aren't the only opposing army NCR faces, just the main one in this part of the Republic, and one which happens to be dangerously close to taking a crucial piece of infrastructure.
- NCR is at an all-time weakpoint during NV, due to being bled dry by the efforts needed to push back the Legion from Hoover's Dam.
- also (and this is the main issue the game focuses on), simply overexpanding and occupying New Vegas has caused the NCR to decay internally. Vegas (and New Reno, as at least one NPC mentions) has corrupted the NCR culture, causing a former 'picket fences and green lawns' state to become economically centred around gambling, drugs and corruption.

Given that, the weaker weapons at the start of the game make some sense.

Also, try playing the game past the first few story points. The main NPC progression in NV isn't level-scaled but story-scaled, which I consider a massive incline. The sophistication of the weaponry packed by both NCR and Caesar's Legion increases dramatically as the main quest is progressed. In terms of 'internal lore logic' the idea is that at the start of the game the NCR's internal bureaucratic inefficiency is such that they can't actually get their weaponry out to the troops in an efficient manner. As the main quest progresses, the region moves closer to fullscale battle and both sides start deploying their heavier arms.

That's why in the early parts of the main quest, NCR squads will have all the same mid-strength assault rifle, with maybe one stronger rifle on the commanding officer, and Legion squads will all have swords or axes (apart from Legion Assassins, who always carry guns). Later on, NCR squads will have a full mix of miniguns, assault rifles, snipers and grenades, and Legion squads will have more firerams units as well as chainsaws and better armour.

Even so, yes it's blatantly silly to have chainsaws and power fists combatting gun-toting NCR troops. But that's always been part of FO. It was equally silly having viable melee and unarmed builds in FO1. Given that you''re playing a game series where unarmed and melee have always been viable (sometimes overpowered) builds, it does make sense to at least have that reflected in the game world.

And the fact you can't say that in one sentence exposes it for the shitty writing it is.

(a) Since when have I communicated anything in one sentence? (seriously, my inability to explain things concisely plagues my writing at work, not just my Codex posts).

(b) I can imagine quite a few reasons why someone might dislike the idea of having NPC equipment scale depending on where you are in the main quest (as opposed to level-scaling). But surely the complexity of the system isn't one of them - not in these parts of the internet, anyway. Since when did we start insisting that game mechanics have to be explainable in one sentence, so that illiterate kiddies can understand them? Can't wait to see you attempt to play JA2 or Wizardry 4-8 if New Vegas is too complex for you!

(again, I can certainly appreciate that folks may have good reasons for not liking story-scaling of equipment, or that they may not like the way in which it is tied into the game's lore and plot. It's just the 'oh my god it's too complex to be explained in one sentence' that baffles me as a complaint.)

That's not complexity of system, it's complexity of idiotic backstory which isn't that interesting in the first place.

Everything about it is weak, but ultimately if the legion is some super badass group just don't encounter them in force until the end, and if they're not then don't make them the pivotal part of the game.

Same with NCR, if they are badasses don't do everything you can to paint the reverse picture. Words don't speak half as loudly as plowing through trash mobs.

 

[felipepepe]

Caesar's Legion should have been better explored, Overweight Manatee and Azrael the cat ideias would have made them a much deeper faction instead...

And Vault 11 was really good. I was surprised, at that point I didn't expect such great storytelling from the game anymore.

 

[.Sigurd]

It's a great game, despite the Bethesda-ness.

The combat is a bit retarded, yes. Energy weapons are almost useless, except for the Gauss Rifle, whereas the various types of Power Fists are stupidly overpowered. 2-3 Hits from one can kill you even with power armor (which is also far less effective) on.

Although for me the worst thing isn't the combat, it's the way they fucked around with the canon again. Like the OP says, Caesar's Legion just being retconned in as a major threat is a bit retarded. Then there's the NCR itself. In Fallout 2 they all have Bazors and blow the crap out of everyone, while in NV they have weak-ass pea-shooters. In Dead Money (which is a really good add-on IMO), they mention cars being "gas guzzlers" in some of the Sierra Madre's logs. WTF?? In Fallout 2 it's widely known that the cars ran on Micro Fusion Cells before the war.

The point is, yes there are flaws, but overall it's much closer to the Fallout atmosphere than that piece of shit "Fallout" 3 was. For me, the game gets better the farther you go, the beginning is a bit slow. Kind of like... Fallout. And there are LOTS of places to explore on the world map. Also, Dead Money is awesome, but be prepared for a struggle to survive, depending on your skills. It's quite different from the rest of the game. Definitely worth the $2 (I think) I paid for it on the Steam Summer Sale.

edit: The part with the ghoulified NCR (Torchlight I think) doesn't need to involve much combat, you can just hack the turrets to blow the crap out of them and explore the town, etc. Can't remember if there's a lot of stuff to find though, more just backstory about the war.

About half the game's plot and lore centres around how/why NCR has degenerated from the strength it had in FO2:
- firstly, some folks mention that NCR is STILL much stronger, and more modern, in the area where it started, and that the New Vegas region is something of a wild frontier - Caesar's Legion aren't the only opposing army NCR faces, just the main one in this part of the Republic, and one which happens to be dangerously close to taking a crucial piece of infrastructure.
- NCR is at an all-time weakpoint during NV, due to being bled dry by the efforts needed to push back the Legion from Hoover's Dam.
- also (and this is the main issue the game focuses on), simply overexpanding and occupying New Vegas has caused the NCR to decay internally. Vegas (and New Reno, as at least one NPC mentions) has corrupted the NCR culture, causing a former 'picket fences and green lawns' state to become economically centred around gambling, drugs and corruption.

Given that, the weaker weapons at the start of the game make some sense.

Also, try playing the game past the first few story points. The main NPC progression in NV isn't level-scaled but story-scaled, which I consider a massive incline. The sophistication of the weaponry packed by both NCR and Caesar's Legion increases dramatically as the main quest is progressed. In terms of 'internal lore logic' the idea is that at the start of the game the NCR's internal bureaucratic inefficiency is such that they can't actually get their weaponry out to the troops in an efficient manner. As the main quest progresses, the region moves closer to fullscale battle and both sides start deploying their heavier arms.

That's why in the early parts of the main quest, NCR squads will have all the same mid-strength assault rifle, with maybe one stronger rifle on the commanding officer, and Legion squads will all have swords or axes (apart from Legion Assassins, who always carry guns). Later on, NCR squads will have a full mix of miniguns, assault rifles, snipers and grenades, and Legion squads will have more firerams units as well as chainsaws and better armour.

Even so, yes it's blatantly silly to have chainsaws and power fists combatting gun-toting NCR troops. But that's always been part of FO. It was equally silly having viable melee and unarmed builds in FO1. Given that you''re playing a game series where unarmed and melee have always been viable (sometimes overpowered) builds, it does make sense to at least have that reflected in the game world.

And the fact you can't say that in one sentence exposes it for the shitty writing it is.

(a) Since when have I communicated anything in one sentence? (seriously, my inability to explain things concisely plagues my writing at work, not just my Codex posts).

(b) I can imagine quite a few reasons why someone might dislike the idea of having NPC equipment scale depending on where you are in the main quest (as opposed to level-scaling). But surely the complexity of the system isn't one of them - not in these parts of the internet, anyway. Since when did we start insisting that game mechanics have to be explainable in one sentence, so that illiterate kiddies can understand them? Can't wait to see you attempt to play JA2 or Wizardry 4-8 if New Vegas is too complex for you!

(again, I can certainly appreciate that folks may have good reasons for not liking story-scaling of equipment, or that they may not like the way in which it is tied into the game's lore and plot. It's just the 'oh my god it's too complex to be explained in one sentence' that baffles me as a complaint.)

Congrats. You bit Bryce's bait. Don't worry, you're not the first.

 

[Mastermind]

I always thought that the Legion was an interesting notion, and with a little bit more development they could have served as a really effective foil/alternative to the NCR. They are obviously rushed though...the sad end result of someone returning to a half-finished idea ten years after the idea was first had. I do hate the visual aspect of them though. I can understand and would even expect some Roman influences and trappings to be mixed into their Tribal stuff, they shun most technology after all, but the designers took it too far, I think. It went beyond being an interesting visual cue and became something cartoonish and out of place.

I liked what they did, but it really needed more time spent on showing how fucked things will be if anarchy arises. The idea of people accepting an incredibly brutal regime as an alternative to anarchy is perfectly reasonable, and interesting. CL are basically the Taliban in that respect. Folks in Afghanistan hated the Taliban, and even under Islamic and tribal culture the Taliban's rules were viewed as fucked up....but there was just so much inter-tribal confict, and so much random gang violence, rapes and thefts that no-one could do anything about due to lack of an effective police force, that people supported the Taliban because at least it meant that there was relative peace and folks could actually live without worrying about thugs driving them out of their homes.

CL basically runs on the same premise - have a setting where democratic government is arguably impossible, and every attempt at democratic government leads to corruption, hypocracy and moral decline, and it becomes plausible that a significant proportion of folks will accept a more brutal regime if they think it has a better chance of surviving and fending off anarchy.

For that to work, though, you really need to drill into the player just how bad things will be if the region falls into anarchy. They should have had a section of the game where it shows a no-mans-land which both sides have abandoned due to lack of strategic importance; where gangs, interfamily conflict, random lawlessness and no means of distributing goods leads to famine, poisoning of resources (water, cropland etc) and the region going to waste because no-one can safely run a farm without someone else fucking them over. CL would seem like a much more feasible choice if anarchy was a looming greater evil.

Giving them a few more positive attributes wouldn't hurt either. Not talking about making them less brutal, but perhaps having them work better with the local customs, so that they get more of a grassroots connection to the locals (again, like the Taliban vs the attempts at more centralised government in Afghanistan).

I don't really agree with this assessment, mostly because the NCR is perfectly capable of providing most of the same things the legion does, without the rather considerably high chance that you will get brutally murdered or enslaved. I think a great deal of NCR/Legion balancing was either stupid or should have been the other way around.

*Caravans are safe in legion land. Why? The legion murders and enslaves people at the drop of a hat. They're not particularly fond of technology and they're prefectly capable of providing themselves with their other needs via slavery. Why this sudden exception, other than Obsidian being able to add a contrived checkmark to the legion's "good" tab.
*Merchants don't pay taxes. This one is particularly retarded. One of the most brutal and ruthless organizations in the region provides free protection to travelling merchants. Why? So Obsidian can pretend choosing the legion is less black than it actually is? To add insult to injury, in the game, the legion attacks travelling merchants for no reason. Derp.
*The ncr is far more corrupt and inefficient than the legion. Why? In the real world dictatorships are almost always more inefficient and corrupt than democracies. The more power people at the top wield, the less likely you are to be able to dislodge them from their position due to abuses. In a democracy you usually have some checks and balances that prevent a superior from, say, having you executed when you don't dance to their tune.
*brutal dictatorships rule through fear. bribery is another alternate possibility. The legion should either seek to strike fear in the player (I think some "features" like random legionnaires armed with grenades and having them pull the pin and do a suicide run on the player when they're about to die, or waking up in the middle of the night with four legion agents beating the living shit out of you with golf clubs could entice the player to at the very least be smarter about pissing off the legion), or bribe the player with considerably better loot and benefits than the NCR. Or even better, do a bit of both depending on the circumstances. Giving you slaves (both of the sex and the mundane variety), possibly a high ranking position, a camp to run with associated benefits (like periodic repair), command of a small squad of legionnaires, some hard physical training the more tech reliant NCR does not have available, etc. would appeal to the player's base survival instinct/greed and make the legion more attractive. As it stands I'm pretty squeamish about siding with the bad guys in general even if it's just a game, and in NV I have pretty much nothing to gain by doing so since I can get the best rewards from both factions before I go past the point return with them.

 

[Crichton]

I think the big problem with the legion is that it's the result of two incompatible storyline goals:

1) Caesar is Kurz from Heart of Darkness, listen to all the stories about the civilized man leading the vast horde of primatives, watch as he concludes that a barbaric society has its advantages. Is he mad or a visionary? DUN DUN DUN

2) The legion is a showcase of all humanity's worst practices: slavery, rape, murder, primativism, pedantic latin pronounciation. Everyone else is afraid of them, do you have the courage to face them, chosen one?

The results mostly favor the 2nd, Caesar's legion isn't some sort of alternate society, it's basicallly those "Reaver" guys from Firefly. Caesar can't be some sort of yes-we-murder-people-but-the-trains-run-on-time dictator because he thinks trains will make people weak and forces everyone to walk.

It's also a real mystery just how the Legion keeps going since a) no one wants to be part of their society, b) they are way behind technologically and c) all they let their women produce is babies so they're operating at 50% strength compared to pseudo-modern societies like the NCR. But don't worry, they can keep up militarily thanks to their extensive training in unarmed combat and large pre-war stockpile of gloves with shoguns built in that shoot people when you punch them, LOL. In Caesar's lands, the ROFL-fist laughs at you!

I think simplest solutions would be to

a) Make the legion a monkey-copy of an ancient roman society, slavery, bloodsports, class system, etc, but actually respecting it's people instead of treating them like trash. Presumably greater participation by women would go along with this. Maybe they're still sub-optimal compared to a society without slavery / class-restrictions, maybe they're still behind technologically because too many potential scientists are digging ditches, but the society actually fufills some of its people's needs.

b) Make the NCR the aggressor. In FO:NV, Caesar ends inter-tribal warfare only to get all the ex-tribals killed trying to take the Hoover Dam. Why not have the NCR trying to "liberate" the people in Caesar's lands, forcing the legion into a war they don't want? This would make a much more compelling choice for the chosen one: support the war effort to colonize CL lands hoping that the children of the current populace will benefit or fight back against NCR aggression and trust that CL society will reform in its own time?

 

[Radisshu]

One thing I thought was weird is that Joshua Graham is the better fighter, while Lanius is the better strategist, although Graham was this scholar that came along with Caesar and Lanius was this crazy tribal they found. Feels like it should've been the other way around.

 

[thursdayschild]

I think the big problem with the legion is that it's the result of two incompatible storyline goals:

1) Caesar is Kurz from Heart of Darkness, listen to all the stories about the civilized man leading the vast horde of primatives, watch as he concludes that a barbaric society has its advantages. Is he mad or a visionary? DUN DUN DUN

2) The legion is a showcase of all humanity's worst practices: slavery, rape, murder, primativism, pedantic latin pronounciation. Everyone else is afraid of them, do you have the courage to face them, chosen one?

The results mostly favor the 2nd, Caesar's legion isn't some sort of alternate society, it's basicallly those "Reaver" guys from Firefly. Caesar can't be some sort of yes-we-murder-people-but-the-trains-run-on-time dictator because he thinks trains will make people weak and forces everyone to walk.

It's also a real mystery just how the Legion keeps going since a) no one wants to be part of their society, b) they are way behind technologically and c) all they let their women produce is babies so they're operating at 50% strength compared to pseudo-modern societies like the NCR. But don't worry, they can keep up militarily thanks to their extensive training in unarmed combat and large pre-war stockpile of gloves with shoguns built in that shoot people when you punch them, LOL. In Caesar's lands, the ROFL-fist laughs at you!

I think simplest solutions would be to

a) Make the legion a monkey-copy of an ancient roman society, slavery, bloodsports, class system, etc, but actually respecting it's people instead of treating them like trash. Presumably greater participation by women would go along with this. Maybe they're still sub-optimal compared to a society without slavery / class-restrictions, maybe they're still behind technologically because too many potential scientists are digging ditches, but the society actually fufills some of its people's needs.

b) Make the NCR the aggressor. In FO:NV, Caesar ends inter-tribal warfare only to get all the ex-tribals killed trying to take the Hoover Dam. Why not have the NCR trying to "liberate" the people in Caesar's lands, forcing the legion into a war they don't want? This would make a much more compelling choice for the chosen one: support the war effort to colonize CL lands hoping that the children of the current populace will benefit or fight back against NCR aggression and trust that CL society will reform in its own time?

Those are good ideas, and I got a good laugh at listing pedantic latin pronounciation as one of humanity's worst faults.

 

[DragoFireheart]

I can't help but feel that the conflict between NCR and the Legion is suppose to be mimicking the War on Terror between the U.S and the Taliban.

Fallout: New Vegas. Good game plagued by a shit game engine.

 

[felipepepe]

I can't help but feel that the conflict between NCR and the Legion is suppose to be mimicking the War on Terror between the U.S and the Taliban.

Which is really ironic since every american teenager probably chooses to help the Legion.

Fallout: New Vegas. Good game plagued by a shit game engine

 

[Daemongar]

It's also a real mystery just how the Legion keeps going since a) no one wants to be part of their society, b) they are way behind technologically and c) all they let their women produce is babies so they're operating at 50% strength compared to pseudo-modern societies like the NCR. But don't worry, they can keep up militarily thanks to their extensive training in unarmed combat and large pre-war stockpile of gloves with shoguns built in that shoot people when you punch them, LOL. In Caesar's lands, the ROFL-fist laughs at you!

You are missing the point. Most societies in FO have crumbled to the tribal state. In that case, the NCR is the abberation, using advanced weaponry on those who are in their way. Were the Raiders really that bad? Well, regardless, they were slaughtered. They make reference to this throughout the game. The tribals fight with melee weapons, and CL represents an organized society structured around an advanced tribal state. The NCR represents the worst of what started the wars to begin with. All their folks are drunks, lesbian sharpshooters, and conscripts who have no reason to be there. Look at Vegas: whores, gambling, and drunkeness. Caesar has none of that. This contrast was there for a reason, in case you missed it.

I think simplest solutions would be to

a) Make the legion a monkey-copy of an ancient roman society, slavery, bloodsports, class system, etc, but actually respecting it's people instead of treating them like trash. Presumably greater participation by women would go along with this. Maybe they're still sub-optimal compared to a society without slavery / class-restrictions, maybe they're still behind technologically because too many potential scientists are digging ditches, but the society actually fufills some of its people's needs.

They did make the legion a copy of ancient Roman society. You want it like Roman society, only more liberal? Then it's not like the Roman society, hell, its not like any society. The people lived in Roman society because it was safer than not being part of the Roman society. They didn't expect everyone to be equal, if they did, slaves wouldn't really fit in.

b) Make the NCR the aggressor. In FO:NV, Caesar ends inter-tribal warfare only to get all the ex-tribals killed trying to take the Hoover Dam. Why not have the NCR trying to "liberate" the people in Caesar's lands, forcing the legion into a war they don't want? This would make a much more compelling choice for the chosen one: support the war effort to colonize CL lands hoping that the children of the current populace will benefit or fight back against NCR aggression and trust that CL society will reform in its own time?

NCR is the agressor. They want to take over Las Vegas but do not have the manpower. They are taking over towns against their will, even if the towns are not threatened by Caesar. Caesar is doing the same thing, but he seems to have some moral principles. The NCR has none, unless expanding the reach of a far off gubmint is manifest destiny.

 

[Micormic]

Edward wrote a terrible F3 review, now he's trying his luck with NV


don't know why this guy tries to fit in so much lol

 

[Crichton]

You are missing the point. Most societies in FO have crumbled to the tribal state. In that case, the NCR is the abberation, using advanced weaponry on those who are in their way. Were the Raiders really that bad? Well, regardless, they were slaughtered. They make reference to this throughout the game. The tribals fight with melee weapons, and CL represents an organized society structured around an advanced tribal state. The NCR represents the worst of what started the wars to begin with. All their folks are drunks, lesbian sharpshooters, and conscripts who have no reason to be there. Look at Vegas: whores, gambling, and drunkeness. Caesar has none of that. This contrast was there for a reason, in case you missed it.

They did make the legion a copy of ancient Roman society. You want it like Roman society, only more liberal? Then it's not like the Roman society, hell, its not like any society. The people lived in Roman society because it was safer than not being part of the Roman society. They didn't expect everyone to be equal, if they did, slaves wouldn't really fit in.

CL doesn't resemble ancient Roman society, it doesn't resemble any society and there will never be a society that it does resemble.

from the wiki:

This horde of cruel, yet highly disciplined slavers has spread across the southwest like an all-consuming flame. Founded by a fallen member of the Followers of the Apocalypse, Caesar's Legion is effectively an enormous, conscripted slave army. As Caesar conquers the peoples of the wasteland, he strips them of their tribal identities and turns their young men into ruthless legionaries and women into breeding stock. They are well organized, moving and attacking in large packs, and deliberately commit atrocities to terrorize those who might dare oppose them.

Nearly all physically capable, compliant males are compelled to serve in its armed forces. The primary value of pre-menopausal females is to serve as breeding stock (with Caesar or a legate governing how they are assigned to males), though they, like older females and less physically-capable men, are also used to perform a variety of other tasks; such as being assigned as Caesar's priestesses, whose duty is, among other things, to raise children taken away from their parents as members of the Legion. The largest unit of organization in Caesar's Legion is the "Cohort", numbering about 480 infantrymen. Cohorts are further divided into "Centuriae", which contrary to their name numbers about 80 men, and each Centuriae is divided into ten "tent groups" ("Contubernia"), making this the squad level of organization. Raiding parties are of this size (about eight men) and will be led by a Decanus (squad leader).

A society that produces nothing, allows its people no rights or privileges and has 100% conscription for more sucicide attacks on the Hoover Dam. This isn't a human society it's orcs/darkspawn/imperial stormtroopers, a collection of human-like figures with no redeeming aspects so you don't have to feel bad about shooting them. It's just comic-opera stuff, no trace of belivability.

NCR is the agressor. They want to take over Las Vegas but do not have the manpower. They are taking over towns against their will, even if the towns are not threatened by Caesar. Caesar is doing the same thing, but he seems to have some moral principles. The NCR has none, unless expanding the reach of a far off gubmint is manifest destiny.

Caesar doesn't have any principles. The game makes it quite clear that not only does he not care about his victims, he uses his own people as fodder. He isn't even honest about it, he sends minions to lie to the Khans and his people collude with corrupt townspeople to ambush the NCR and then instead of honoring their bargin, they kill the townspeople. I don't know when the FO:NV writing team made the decision, but as written, "Caesar" is a cross between Kurz and that asshole from KotOR 1.

 

[torpid]

A society that produces nothing, allows its people no rights or privileges and has 100% conscription for more sucicide attacks on the Hoover Dam. This isn't a human society it's orcs/darkspawn/imperial stormtroopers, a collection of human-like figures with no redeeming aspects so you don't have to feel bad about shooting them. It's just comic-opera stuff, no trace of belivability.

Yeah, as others have said the problem with Caesar's Legion, beyond the aesthetical issues, is that they're entirely, absolutely evil, even by the standards of the setting. Really, each one of the three main factions in the game seems designed to fill a position on the moral spectrum: there's the evil Legion, the neutral House, who is the Strip's benevolent dictator, and the good NCR, who are, despite references to corruption and their self-interested reasons for entering the Mojave, positively depicted for the most part. It's even more striking if you consider the actual faction members you meet: Caesar is a cynical madman while House is a demigod that the player can never relate to -- only NCR NPCs come off as normal and elicit any kind of sympathy. In fact, they're written in a fairly stereotypical way: the decent soldiers who grumble about the "politicians back home" while trying to do their job as best as they can with limited means. I find them a little too late 20th century-sounding for a 23rd century post-apocalyptic faction.

Caesar doesn't have any principles. The game makes it quite clear that not only does he not care about his victims, he uses his own people as fodder. He isn't even honest about it, he sends minions to lie to the Khans and his people collude with corrupt townspeople to ambush the NCR and then instead of honoring their bargin, they kill the townspeople. I don't know when the FO:NV writing team made the decision, but as written, "Caesar" is a cross between Kurz and that asshole from KotOR 1.

I had never thought of Caesar as Kurtz but now that you mention it, the civilized man going native angle does seem based on the character.

 

[halflingbarbarian]

Most games with engaging and interesting lore does not necessarily need to have foolproof logic/realism. They are games and the comparatively small group of lore writers cannot hope to cover the rampant curiosity of all the thousands or millions of gamers. It's a weak argument, yes, but it's also the truth. Rather than settle on finding incongruence and inconsistency in the backstory of CL or anything in NV and methodically take it apart like your philosophy class homework, be optimistic and give it the benefit of the doubt.

The CL camps in Mojave are on the frontlines, and history tells us that men become beasts on the frontlines sooner or later due to the mental stress and violence they have to endure every day. CL's practices of slavery and brutality in Mojave may be seen as an extreme representation of their actual situations in CL-settled lands. They are at war now. Imagine the differences between seeing a man die to a gunshot in the trenches of war right beside you as bullets screamed overhead and a man dying to a gunshot beside you on a bus to work. All the CL impaling and mass murdering in the Mojave may just be convenient and effective demonstrations of their kind of law and society on men and women they view as weak and probably enemies until proven otherwise. Back in stable CL lands they may be industrious farmers/builders/settlers w/e operating under nonegalitarian and militant laws, not a bunch of fucking savages raping and making spears all day.

In my opinion the shit that caked on the CL depiction in-game is the art direction, and only that. Game fans can fill in holes and smooth over irregularities in CL lore. I don't know why so many of you keep talking about meeting CL with mostly unarmed weaponry like a pack of zerglings. If you played the game and travelled to their camps in south and south-east Mojave, you will notice that half or more of any CL group you encounter would pack firearms. I felt that this distribution makes sense as the CL guns are most probably all scavenged/plundered, and the supply may be limited compared to NCR (troops 100% with firearms) who has the Gunrunners and maybe their own factories. The problem was with the adoption of Romanisation visually. It's dumb and stupid because Caesar is educated and can apply the efficiencies of the Roman governance without needing his people to sleep in red tents or wear skirts. In-game, it confuses the futuristic atmosphere for the player and makes it all seem pretty comical appearance-wise, which takes away alot of respect and empathy with the CL.

What they could have done to make CL a more believable and fitting faction was to just tone down the whole cultural schtick expressed through clothing. Look at the great khans: they are bordering on jokes as well but at least you can see they are wearing modern clothing in manners that are inspired by the mongols, not all out wearing mongol suits like the CL. The art direction of the CL in-game is the real culprit for me. This is what they should look like:

Not:

Tiny example but many many bits of over-the-top shit can make CL look idiotic fast. Make them more down to earth, with maybe Overweight Manatee's suggestion of including an area or two of actual CL cities/villages.

TL;DR: People can't be fucked to round off irregularities in CL lore because there are too many extreme representations in a game where their presence is already limited. They can't be related to, or recognised in any way. Make them more human and Fallout-y, not some strange medieval fantasy faction that teleported to post-nuclear world.

Edit:

A society that produces nothing, allows its people no rights or privileges and has 100% conscription for more sucicide attacks on the Hoover Dam. This isn't a human society it's orcs/darkspawn/imperial stormtroopers, a collection of human-like figures with no redeeming aspects so you don't have to feel bad about shooting them. It's just comic-opera stuff, no trace of belivability.

This is what gamers conclude from a description of CL that mentions/credits none of this when the CL are already established as ridiculous. Nobody said they produced nothing (but organised raiding is production in the wastelands, if they only did that), their people do have rights and privileges, 100% conscription yes since it's a militant society but what suicidal attack on Hoover Dam (?). If they were depicted properly in-game people would read the words in the provided lore a whole different way imo.

 

[anus_pounder]

Wheres that artwork from?

 

[Konjad]

Damn, I wish they put at least one village under legion's law, to see how it works. they should make DLC with that, instead of some bullshit DLCs

 

[halflingbarbarian]

My point regarding the first quote is just that game lore, as a type of writing, is not especially known or expected to be comprehensive and flawlessly consistent. Good game lore just needs to be interesting, different, and suitable for the setting. All details provided are to be indicative of a larger picture where the player/gamer fills in the holes with their own imaginations (unless the game is adapted from a more rigorous type of fiction, like a novel). You pointed out the Legion as shallow and unconvincing, because you impose your RL moral/philosophical/whatever judgements on an ingame fictional faction. If I were to do the same to NCR in the NV game w/o knowledge in Fallout lore, I can say that the NCR has no draw for me (hypothetically) for various reasons such as lack of cohesive leadership, lack of presence of a unified culture, too many laws, etc. The question then boils down to the exact nature of your displeasure with CL:

1) CL is shallow and unconvincing as a whole even including the lore you can gather both ingame and outside (Internet?).

2) CL is shallow and unconvincing to me as a human player because in the game, all I do is butcher people and burninate villages for reasons that my RL persona does not agree with, or understand the reasoning for.

3) CL is shallow and unconvincing to me because I am not bothered with out-of-game resources, and while roleplaying in a roleplaying game, CL is not inviting nor fulfilling for any character archetype I can imagine.

I am not saying that CL is a fabulous faction in NV, but I want to bring notice to the standards by which people judge CL, which can as easily dismantle NCR, or House, or the Great Khans, or the Brotherhood, etc. That is why I brought up the art direction and general appearance/presence part, because no mention is made for the other factions I assume they are acceptable (not shallow and unconvincing) to most, and CL should move towards normalisation in depiction in that direction. More CL in identifiable clothing (culturally speaking: torn jackets, normal hats fuck those feathers or w/e, etc.), more CL areas with identifiable infrastructure/activities (a CL village with a farm worked by slaves, a CL junk ammo shop with an all women workforce refitting guns and ammo, less fucking pyres and hanging bodies and random blood). Already the dialogue and voiceacting are befitting of a faction that is enlightened and educated in their own way (Vulpes snippets, Caesar, etc.). Currently the CL in NV just *feels* like a bunch of 1 dimensional villains in Halloween costumes (like orcs, for e.g as you mentioned). Such changes I feel will move CL in NV to a more rounded and believable role, with more players ready to consider the necessity of the CL ideology and way of life.

For me in my 2 playthroughs (still in the midst of second one) I actively try to suppress the whole visual Romanisation of CL, and regard them more as a vast, organised raiding culture that emphasises brutality as reflects the wasteland in which their ideology was born. Knowing the CL backstory, I see the CL in NV as less retarded than the Fiends regarding raiding, performing massacres only to establish fear and presence in enemy lands, then taking slaves instead of ripping them apart in some drug-induced frenzy for the sake of it; the CL has also more balls and ambition than the Great Khans, daring to challenge the NCR and recognising the importance of technology and infrastructure (wanting the Hoover Dam, though it would be sweet if the Caesar questline also gave an option to somehow control the trons in the Fort instead of shutting them down, wanting laser weaponry, etc.). Basically they are Mongols in gay Roman dresses (which is regretful).

You might have better perspective of what I'm rambling on about here if you read this (if you haven't already): http://fallout.wikia.com/wiki/Caesar's_Legion

Edit: I felt the Bitter Springs incident is quite hypocritical as the NCR has been forcefully taking territory for generations and it is quite improbable that they had absorbed every tribal child and woman and old (they must have had killed some, or evicted some from their lands forcing them into starvation or as prey for other dangers in the wastelands). It just happened that the Bitter Springs incident had a higher concentration of said children/women/old and suddenly they are fucking sorry for it. No single NCR I remember in NV had the realistic decency to say that it's war and shit happens (not exactly 'war' but they were on a campaign for Great Khan lands) and all them expressed some sort of sappy emotions regarding that hiccup which in a convincing scenario would have happened all the time.

 

[halflingbarbarian]

Wheres that artwork from?

On the link I provided at the end of the post above. I think they are concept art.