Blobbers

[sser]

This is pretty stupid, but I'd like to see more turn-based blobbers, or I guess anti-blobbers, where you only control 1-character. Only one I can think of is The Quest (which I've yet to try). Need more blobbers in general, though, and I hate how many of them are in real-time.

 

[ilitarist]

This is pretty stupid, but I'd like to see more turn-based blobbers, or I guess anti-blobbers, where you only control 1-character. Only one I can think of is The Quest (which I've yet to try). Need more blobbers in general, though, and I hate how many of them are in real-time.

Paper Sorcerer is like that, isn't it?

The first thing a Wiz-game should drive home is that the real challenge is not the encounters but the dungeon itself. SoSC fails in that regard.

Thanks for the detailed answer. I have tried Elminage for a 5 minutes, created a party, was invited into a training fight with a trainer, got my party obliterated for real, was suprised. Will eventually check it out properly.

Still going to force my way through SoSC first but this design makes me feel the game will be only challenging in the beginning where I can't keep my party alive and have to grind with spares till the main party reassembles itself.

 

[Zed Duke of Banville]

This is pretty stupid, but I'd like to see more turn-based blobbers, or I guess anti-blobbers, where you only control 1-character. Only one I can think of is The Quest (which I've yet to try). Need more blobbers in general, though, and I hate how many of them are in real-time.

Paper Sorcerer is like that, isn't it?

Paper Sorcerer has a party of 4 characters. You do start out as the Sorcerer by himself, but immediately are able to summon one monster, and quickly gain second and third monsters to fill out the party.

 

[ilitarist]

Came back to Stranger of the Sword City. Was careful, embraced the idea of a fluid party, sent my good damage dealer ranger to restore life points which takes forever. Finished first dungeon. Can see meditative cycle of town-dungeon ambushes-dungeon progression-town. Rather mad about saving system, I can understand why you save only in a town - this way you don't try to replay specific battles and have to deal with loss. However they had to add some sort of save & quit functionality. Now I can't just load the game if I have 20 minutes to spare because I'm not sure how long will a raid take; maybe I'll just visit some ambush sites and call it a day, maybe I'll be damaged and will have to be extra careful, maybe I fall in a pit and have a side adventure.

And still the game sometimes fucks with you. During one ambush I saw a Death Seeker. It looked menacing so I passed. Then I googled it and discovered my whole party might have been wiped out in a couple of turns, and he doesn't bring any special treasure. At least here I could see he's unfamiliar and high level; later I've met two skeletons who didn't look menacing. However I discovered they're practically immune to physical damage and by the second turn they killed my Samurai so I didn't bother with holy weapons or magic and just run away. There's a rythm to it and I don't want to cite Dark Souls like everybody does but in that game you felt risk of real loss without it being so tedious - you need probably 50 fights to wait for a character to revive and restore life point.

 

[Grampy_Bone]

Between Eliminage and SoSC I'm definitely liking SoSC more.

I actually rage-quit, uninstalled, and reinstalled Elminage four times in a single day. No, it wasn't from dying, it was from the goddamned random level ups.

I know this is a classic Wizardry feature but it's stupid. Randomness like this is not fun, it's just random. Junking a character because he gained 1 HP from leveling up 4 times in a row and lost Str and Vit every level is fucking bullshit.

Elminage seems to have interesting classes but that's all it has. If the super awesome dungeons are so amazing it sure takes its time in showing them. The Bland Cave of Blandness sucks. Just empty twisty little rooms one after another with nothing in them at all, plus not even any interesting battles. On top of that your automap is consumable, so I hope you like getting lost!

It's funny how despite all it's old-school features, Elminage lets you save anywhere. So the biggest hurdle in difficulty is the RNG. Fuck that shit.

(also, minor point, but Elminage looks like crap. Low-res graphics and just a bland, boring, plain art style)

Side rant - Mapping is gay. The game doesn't expect you to swing your characters' swords for them, why does it expect you to map for them? This cave is ridiculously unrealistic. You just don't find anything in real life that's 100% uniform and featureless, except maybe the ocean or a desert. The rooms should be distinct and have recognizable landmarks to aid in navigation, or you should map it for me.

(Yes I know there is a cheat for Eliminage that makes the automap infinite, not the point)

I kept thinking how much this dungeon would fail in tabletop, which is theoretically what we're supposed to be simulating here:

DM: You are in a featureless 2x2 room. You see a door.
Player: I search the room for anything of interest.
DM: You don't find anything
Player: I search for secret doors.
DM: You don't find anything
Player: I check the door for traps
DM: You don't find any traps
Player: Is it locked?
DM: The door is unlocked
Player: I open the door. Does anything happen?
DM: Nope. You see a featureless 2x2 room. There is a door.
Player: I search the room for anything of interest.
DM: You don't find anything
Player: I search for secret doors
DM: You don't find anything
Player: I check the door for traps
DM: You don't find any traps
Player: Is it unlocked?
DM: Yes
Player: I go through the door
DM: You see a featureless 2x2 room. There is a door.
Player: I search for anything of interest...

Jesus Christ. My players would slash my tires if I did this.

 

[octavius]

Between Eliminage and SoSC I'm definitely liking SoSC more.

I actually rage-quit, uninstalled, and reinstalled Elminage four times in a single day. No, it wasn't from dying, it was from the goddamned random level ups.

I know this is a classic Wizardry feature but it's stupid. Randomness like this is not fun, it's just random. Junking a character because he gained 1 HP from leveling up 4 times in a row and lost Str and Vit every level is fucking bullshit.

If it's like Wiz 1-3, the chances of getting only 1 HP increases the closer to max HP your character already have, since HP is recalculated at every level up.

 

[Dorateen]

All those featureless 2x2 rooms didn't have encounters?

 

[Grampy_Bone]

They really don't. Note the series of five 2x2 rooms in a row with nothing in them:

There's like 50 rooms with 12 battles, all of which are going to be slimes or trash mobs. No interesting fights at all. Most of your time is spent wandering around the same useless, featureless rooms.

The NPCs are also useless, they just say stuff like "This place is dangerous" or "I wish I had brought more maps."

There's no incentive to explore any of this because there's no reward to it. There's no chests anywhere; you get them from fights, not from exploring. Say what you will about SoSC, but at least the ambush zones serve as a reward for exploration.

 

[Grampy_Bone]

Between Eliminage and SoSC I'm definitely liking SoSC more.

I actually rage-quit, uninstalled, and reinstalled Elminage four times in a single day. No, it wasn't from dying, it was from the goddamned random level ups.

I know this is a classic Wizardry feature but it's stupid. Randomness like this is not fun, it's just random. Junking a character because he gained 1 HP from leveling up 4 times in a row and lost Str and Vit every level is fucking bullshit.

If it's like Wiz 1-3, the chances of getting only 1 HP increases the closer to max HP your character already have, since HP is recalculated at every level up.

I believe that is how it works, so the chances of getting 1HP repeatedly is statistically low, you should get a big HP bump sooner or later.

Nonetheless, my Brawler is level 6 with 12 fucking Hp, 7 str, and 6 vit. He's too useless to be survivable now and more of a liability on the team than anything. Such a waste of time.

 

[railway]

I actually rage-quit, uninstalled, and reinstalled Elminage four times in a single day. No, it wasn't from dying, it was from the goddamned random level ups.

I know this is a classic Wizardry feature but it's stupid. Randomness like this is not fun, it's just random. Junking a character because he gained 1 HP from leveling up 4 times in a row and lost Str and Vit every level is fucking bullshit.

I think the stat changes even up eventually. At least I stopped caring about them and no longer save-scummed on level-ups at one point. This increased enjoyment of the game dramatically and I was still able to finish all content (including endgame-stuff).

Concerning the maps, I disagree. Mostly.
Elminage has some fantastic dungeons, at least on par with the better ones Wizardries have to offer. The Pharaoh's tomb-like dungeon belongs to my personal favourite blobber dungeons. However the very first dungeon which you aptly coined the Bland Cave of Blandness is the lowpoint of anotherwise great game.
I must have started and abandoned the game about three times before I finally got past the cave, got hooked and finished the game.

As for ingame mapping itself: it doesn't help for the first dungeon but not much later you can find a magic map with unlimited uses (but there's a chance it will break and require repair).

 

[anvi]

Can someone list me some blobbers with the best, deepest, and most tactical combat? I've already played a lot, but I'm tired of playing stuff like M&M which I think has crap combat. (I liked MMX though). I played Wiz 8 but not the earlier ones. Played Grimrocks already. Aweighs list is good but includes MM1-7 ish which is a turn off.

 

[aweigh]

Wizardry 1
Wizardry 2
Wizardry 3
Wizardry 4
Wizardry 5
Wizardry 6
Wizardry 7
Wizardry 8

Wizardry Empire 1
Wizardry Empire 2
Wizardry Empire 3

Wizardry: Chronicle

Wizardry: Astersik
*this one is a bonafide remake of Proving Grounds except transplanted into a feudal Japanese world, and instead of Werdna you fight demon-Nobunaga*

Wizardry Gaiden 1
Wizardry Gaiden 2
Wizardry Gaiden 3
Wizardry Gaiden 4
Wizardry Gaiden 5
Wizardry Gaiden 6

Wizardry: Labyrinth of Souls

Wizardry: Tale of the Forsaken Land

Wizardry: Busin

-----------------------------

(from ex-Wiz devs)

Elminage: Original
Elminage: Gothic

-----------------------------

(indie Wiz-clone that re-uses Wiz 4's mechanic of summoning your party members from pentagons and thus they're monsters, etc)

Paper Sorcerer

and tons more I forget right now.

anvi
You're welcome

 

[DraQ]

... but Wiz8 is definitely not an entry-level blobber.

It was for me.

 

[octavius]

Can someone list me some blobbers with the best, deepest, and most tactical combat?

Might and Magic 2.
Might and Magic 1.

 

[aweigh]

octavius
DraQ

BTW GUYS, SINCE I KNOW MOST HERE DON'T CHECK OUT JRPG FORUM:

THE HIGH-DEFINITION / HD UPSCALED ARTWORK OF the Japanese Windows PC re-release/remake/port of ELMINAGE: ORIGINAL...

...IS COMING OVER VIA STEAM IN ENGLIHS (obv. since it's already in english on psp and on 3ds).

the ecisiting part is that this Windows PC version looks fucking beeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeautiful. They didn't make new assets aside from new ui icons (a lot of them, actually, but ABSOLUTELY EVERYTHING from the dungeon rock walls or dungeon castle tapestries to the first dungeon b1f zombies and slime enemies: ALL of the game's 2d artwork was given HD treatment up the ass.

I have the japanese ISO (of this re-release/remake) but I never posted much about it since i doubted it would ever cross th ocean + the game itself does not feature much new content aside from fluff like new songs, portraits, stuff like that.

But... dem GRAFFIX. It is funny to be graphics whoring over a Wiz-clone dungeon crawler but, just fucking look:



:drool:

NOTE: remember that the animu portraits for party members is a 100% optional thing. actually you can upload whatever the fucking image u want to use. it's one of the new things added to the PC version of E: Original ( i think ??? p. sure the PSP version, i.e. the first one in english, did not allow that). but anyway!

2d art in a good definition!

sser
Zed Duke of Banville

EDIT: MAAAYBE the Elminage: Gothic Windows PC releae prooobably overall features much better graphical package, but remember that Elminage: Original came out in 2007 thereabouts, and no amount of upscaling 20x times those 2-polygon textures that make up most of Original's rustic environments look "high def".

When I say "drool" it is because it is a TREAT to enjoy the game's 2d artwork, the enemies and the town npcs AND all of the NPCs you meet while adventuring who pester you to help them, etc, in what I assume to be at least a competent 720p upscaling of the assets.

I'm gonna use this re-release as my final attempt in clearing the E: ORiginal post game completely. I've finshed it, but I've never been able to kill ALL six of the gods walking the demon world. That shit is crazy.

 

[aweigh]

V_K

I played, figured out, enjoyed and finished Wiz 8 without much trouble and at that time I legitimately did not know what a "blobber"was, or anything related to this sub-genre.

Actually that first play of Wiz 8, for me, was not a good one i kept start/stopping it because I couldn't understand why enemies were always attacking me and I couldn't understand why there was never any NPC, or not enough for my liking at least, around to coddle me with dialog and gossip and whatnot.

During that time, playing Wiz 8 as blind as one can possibly be in the context of blobber indoctrination, it was an experience that left me deeply confused. I enjoyed the pseudo tactical aspects of the combat like how you could kite enmies and use the game world's "geography" (use a rock to divide and conquer, split up a pursuing enemy party), and secondly I enjoyed a lot the way the game featured heavy emphasis on your party's composition and their literal formation/grouping.

It was the first time I'd played a FIRST PERSON VIEW RPG, and the concept of being able to use a long range weapon like a spear by my valkyrie while she is safely protected inside a sandwhich of front-liners, that was really enjoyable.



HOWEVER

Wiz 8 is far from complex. Anyone can figure it out and that is no insult whatsoever: they chucked completely Wizardry gameplay and combat mechanics BUT they at least managed to implement (probably the best) mixture of combat focused on abstracted party formations and weapon reach/placement.

Still, Wiz 5 does the exact same thing as Wiz 8 except with 6 simple portraits in the bottom row of the screen. first three are front row, the final 3 are the van guard. Only thing Wiz 8 brought of their own was their very concise implementation of balancing "real world 3D" spatial qualities and successfully rendering their combat designs dovetail into it in a feedback loop.

My opinion on Wiz's 8 quality as baby's first crawler? ABSOLUTELY! it was mine, after all! and it is absolutely nothing close to representative of either western OR eastern crwalers being made currently so, all the more reason to make everyone play it anyway! It's its own thing...



























(i.e. not a crawler, but yes a blobber).

 

[octavius]

Can someone list me some blobbers with the best, deepest, and most tactical combat?

Might and Magic 2.
Might and Magic 1.

I don't remember the details of MM1, but it was somewhat simpler than MM2.
What makes MM2 the most tactical blobber I've played is that it features things like variable size of front ranks of both party and enemies based on terrain, useful options for Robbers and Ninjas, and highly variable enemies (both amount, composition and their abilities).
Definitely more tactical than the Wizardries IMO.

The Bard's Tale games are also quite tactical, with monsters at different ranges (10 to 90 feet away) and spells and weapons having different ranges (2-3), and the Bard songs, but let down by crude mechanics like AC governing chance to hit (1-2) and the monsters always going first, and BT 3 by being so buggy that monsters had no special attacks.

Wasteland also was quite tactical.

Not that there's a huge difference between the these games and Wizardry, though. The most pronounced (and disappointing to me) difference was the dramatic simplification in MM 3-5.
In general blobber combat has an excellent balance between tactical, quick and fun, and I much prefer it to slow, simple turn based systems, like for example Ultima IV.

 

[Major Seven]

Can someone list me some blobbers with the best, deepest, and most tactical combat?

..

..

Not really more to say if you're looking for good combat and good dungeons.

You can also try Realms of Arkania / Das schwarze Auge 1-3 (if you haven't already). It's a first person blobber that switches to an isometric grid in battle.

All 3 games are very good rpgs in my opinion and they are cheap and drm free available (gog.com).

 

[Dorateen]

Well if we are going to include hybrids; first person exploration that switches to tactical combat maps, then we must mention the Gold Box games. All nine of them.

 

[anvi]

Can someone list me some blobbers with the best, deepest, and most tactical combat?

..

..

You can also try Realms of Arkania / Das schwarze Auge 1-3 (if you haven't already). It's a first person blobber that switches to an isometric grid in battle.

All 3 games are very good rpgs in my opinion and they are cheap and drm free available (gog.com).

That looks cool thx!

 

[aweigh]

if we are talking hybrids now do urself a huge favor and play the fantastic dos craler DARK HEART OF UERKRUKLLL [sic].

dungeons and parties and itemizes like wizardry and its 80s contemporaries, BUT, all encounters are done using the Gold box way of seperate, nom spatially tethered fignt screen witj top down view and heavy emphasis on pitch perfect utilization of positioning and of ciursenbiggest emphasisnis on thenspells, but thatw becaus2 dark heart implements a Rune symbology which comprises all adpect of casting, and ladtly dark heart also features many, many excellently written scenes where you willl suddenly be presentednwith text saying you were walking along but jow u hear voices do u inspect, if u do u then findnthat they come behind a wooden door and the game even describes how u listen at the door and, etx, etx.

no real skill cechks, but an obvious (and very very welcome) borrowign from adv. games. yeah, same ones darklands rips off too, oooh burn.

 

[aweigh]

dark heart also holds 2nd place in my heart for most intelligent dungeon and maze design, second onlynto wiz 4.