Bioware's first 'Grey morals' quest?

[RK47]

Was in the middle of replaying KOTOR 1 and stumbled upon Sunry's trial.
Basically Sunry's accused of murdering a sith in a neutral 'no aggression' colony. Manaan is the only planet that produces Kolto, a substance that helps with healing and saving lives. Manaan remains neutral and trades kolto with Republic & Sith, however if Sunry (a somewhat well decorated war hero for republic) is found guilty, that may affect the kolto trade quota for the Republic and give Sith an edge in the war since less kolto = more deaths from wounds.

So the task is pretty simple, prove his innocence. This is obviously a setup right? Who leaves a medal on a victim? That's a pretty stupid mistake to make.

So I gathered evidence and found the following facts:
-Sunry ran right after shots are fired in the hotel room both were inside
There were witnesses, you can persuade them or bribe or force dominate if you prefer dark side.

-They were having an affair of sort. She's a Sith. And he is Republic war hero.
Checked this with his wife, confirmed.

-The hero's medal was planted by a hired hand. This made it look like a frame-up. But who fired the blaster?

-Snooped around in the republic embassy and found recording of Sunry shooting the female sith on the back. Wth? It seems that Sunry killed her, and in panic called the Republic to help him out. So they took the room surveillance records away. The sith reacted by planting the war medal on the victim.

So the game gave you two options:
Give the recording to the judges so Sunry would be found guilty.
or
Twist the evidences and testimonies so he would be found innocene.

Now that's pretty good choices, I mean if you helped him out that means you are willing to forgive a murder for the sake of 'helping the republic'

If you let the truth come out, you are indirectly responsible for Sith gaining advantage in the overall war. In fact, I personally think Sunry's voice actor delivered the line pretty well. Something like "How many siths have you killed?" and excusing his action with "She was using me to spy on the republic!"

Has there ever been a Bioware quest that gave you this sort of impression? Choosing the lesser of two evils? It made me reflect. Or am I missing an evidence to analyze it further?

 

[Smarts]

The quest originally had an option to find out that the recording of Sunry shooting the woman was a Sith forgery, but it was cut. And the quest is the better for it, really.

 

[M_I_C_K_E_Y_M_O_U_S_E]

Mass Effect had several grey quests if you make certain assumptions and speculate a little.

 

[feighnt]

this was probably the most interesting part of KOTOR 1, it was essentially the *only* time i ever had a moral dilemma playing that game. it was in stark contrast to the clear black-and-white tendency of the rest of the game.

 

[Davaris]

Twist the evidences and testimonies so he would be found innocene.

Do that and you surrender part of yourself to the dark side and evil gains a small victory in the universe. That act could be the beginning of your conversion to the dark side. Are they trying to tempt you?

Give the recording to the judges so Sunry would be found guilty.

If you let the truth come out, you are indirectly responsible for Sith gaining advantage in the overall war.

With this choice you give no part of yourself to evil. Lots of good people *may* die (sooner rather than later), but it will be the forces of evil doing that, not the forces of good.

 

[Qwinn]

Davaris,

I would agree, unless you believed that the recording of Sunry shooting the woman was a Sith forgery but couldn't prove it. Is defeating a forgery with another forgery evil? I would submit no, if it advances the most just outcome.

If you do actually believe Sunry to actually have committed the crime, then yeah, I'd agree with your analysis.

Full Disclosure: I haven't played KOTOR, I'm just throwing my 2 cents in based on the info that's been provided in this thread.

Qwinn

 

[Sovy Kurosei]

It was one of the best quests in the game.

 

[MetalCraze]

He actually killed her because she was a Sith spy - you can use "force persuade" to interrogate him before the trial and he tells you everything.

The thing is however - "grey morals"? Doesn't mean a thing - as no matter what you choose - it won't affect the story a bit.

 

[RK47]

well that's always been the issue of Bioware story telling. They don't want you to affect too much of the overall narration. It always boils down to many choices of good and evil and then at its pivotal moment, you will make a decision that you cannot undo. Even the companions will hint at this. Evil players can suddenly have a change of heart at the very last moment, but once that choice is made there is no turning back.

In my opinion these 'star map hunting' is a terrible way to tell an epic story. It's so cliched. Find the 4 pieces and proceed to the next plot point. Why can't they make it that you need to convert allies to your cause, namely these 4 planets would have some sort of strategic value right? That would also give you the option to sabotage the republic war effort should you secretly support the sith.

Korriban: Intelligence on the sith, fleet movement, double agent and sabotage.

Manaan: Kolto supply. Either you work with the Selkath to convince them that sith is evil or you sabotage the sith operations there to get them expelled from Manaan. Ofcourse you can support the Sith as well.

Kashyyyk: Enslaved wookies need to be liberated to your cause! Need I say more? Why is there even a point to recover an ancient tech in such a backward world. SIGH.

Tatooine: Since Tatooine is the hive of scum and villainy, why don't they make it a 'third side' you can recruit for the war? Yes, bounty hunters like Han Solo and Rodians hang around there right?

It made more sense for these actions to be taken to further help the war effort instead of hunting for treasure maps while thousands die each day.

Also: Jolee Bindo is probably the best character among the stereotypical bunch of cast. It's like one of those funky class lecturers that you can actually sit down for lunch and trade jokes with.

 

[MetalCraze]

Not mentioning that in the end you find a space factory that builds the whole sith army out of vacuum.

Karpyshyn probably wrote the whole KotOR story in one evening.

 

[deuxhero]

I agree, Jolee acctualy has depth of personality (Finding out that he only acts like a grumpy old man because he thinks people expect old men to ramble was amusing), an interesting backstory, AND he is amusing.


Why is he the only such NPC I have found recently?

 

[Turjan]

Not mentioning that in the end you find a space factory that builds the whole sith army out of vacuum.

Out of star matter. You could see the stream of material being sucked up from the star itself.

 

[RK47]

Not exactly. I thought it was powered by the force. And the Rakatan race is just poor writing. If what I read is correct, they were an advanced race that once ruled over a huge empire, flying spaceships with the FORCE, going into hyperspace with the FORCE, building space stations powered by the FORCE. Then one day they lost their connection with the FORCE, and their empire simply crumbled. Their conquered planets rebelled and wiped them out leaving them with just their homeland with Star Forge above them, which is unusable since they are not attuned with the FORCE. And ther civilization went backwards because they lack any technology they can use without the FORCE. Unbelievable.

So apparently Revan crashed there and found the Star Forge. After showing his FORCE powers, they let him into Star Forge to manufacture space ships once more for the Sith Empire, leaving the Rakatans with nothing except tribal wars.

What I don't get is to unlock the entrance to the temple it would require 5 idiotic rakatans to chant around a bonfire to open the gates.

 

[Turjan]

Not exactly. I thought it was powered by the force.

It was not really explained what the dark side energies did (go into the building plans?), but the fact* stays that the thing used matter and energy from the star. There was one cutscene in the game that showed that.

*as much fact as you can attribute to fiction

 

[RK47]

I agree, Jolee acctualy has depth of personality (Finding out that he only acts like a grumpy old man because he thinks people expect old men to ramble was amusing), an interesting backstory, AND he is amusing.


Why is he the only such NPC I have found recently?

I think Bioware lifted his personality off Jan Jensen from baldur's gate 2

The gnome has less 'morality' in his story and it just serves as nonsensical tales that leads to a joke. But Jolee's something else. Asking him about the Sith he'll tell you that they make great sandwiches as a hint that someone close to him is a Sith.

 

[RK47]

Initially the Star Forge operates like a normal factory. However as the Rakatans continued usage for war and conquest....errr...I'll save myself the trouble and lift this off some reference.:

This technological marvel came at a terrible cost as the Rakata were by nature a cruel and savage species and the Star Forge began feeding off of these negative traits inherent in its creators. As a result the Star Forge became an immense tool of dark side power.

The Star Forge, now a fusion of technology and dark side energies, began corrupting the Rakata in order to gain the immense power it required to operate itself and ultimately caused the collapse of the Rakatan Empire. The semi-living superweapon's ability to corrupt its users forced Darth Revan to limit his contact with the dark side artifact to avoid allowing it to control him as it did the Rakatans.

The insistence of 'super weapons' into the plot kinda made it predictable in my opinion. Wouldn't it be more believable that Revan is simply really a charismatic guy and warfare genius that Republic forces are severely crippled by mass conversions and defeats, before Bastila managed to 'assassinate him' and left Malak in charge who is less gifted yet has enough edge over the republic fleet to finish the job?

 

[feighnt]

In my opinion these 'star map hunting' is a terrible way to tell an epic story. It's so cliched. Find the 4 pieces and proceed to the next plot point. Why can't they make it that you need to convert allies to your cause, namely these 4 planets would have some sort of strategic value right? That would also give you the option to sabotage the republic war effort should you secretly support the sith.

(etc etc)

... i dont think that'd really work. or, well, rather, i DO think it would work, and i think it's a good idea, but you'd have to change a number of the planets - they just wouldn't have had any real strategic use.

Korriban and Manaan, of course, are useful - the ability to subvert a sith training base, and to get the sole supplier of kolto on your side? damned right.

Kashyyyk wouldnt be of much use - the Wookies are insular, and, even though they're happy that you help free them from the slavers (if you play the game that way), they still would've had no intention of helping the war effort in any real way, aside from, say, letting ships resupply on their planet or whatever. the wookies, themselves, are kind of backwards in KOTOR - sure, they have the capacity to understand technology and all that stuff, but most of them just arent interested in it, or are so behind on things that it'd take a really long time to make them useful to serve in a war that is largely fought with incredibly complex spaceships.

and tatooine wasnt quite so much a hive of scum and villainy in KOTOR as it was in A New Hope - this was thousands of years earlier, remember. sure, there's lots of scum on the planet, but the colony was really tiny, and, as everyone there tells you, was just about ready to pack it all in and take off - after that, there'd only be sand people (who would never help your war anyway) and a small number of big game hunters (who would be as useless as the sand people). you couldnt even get any decent minerals from the planet, because, of course, all the metals they try to mine on the planet are beyond useless. sure, you could possibly try to strike up a deal with Czerka, but Czerka has a presence on almost all of the planets you go to in the game.

but, otherwise, i like your idea.

The insistence of 'super weapons' into the plot kinda made it predictable in my opinion. Wouldn't it be more believable that Revan is simply really a charismatic guy and warfare genius that Republic forces are severely crippled by mass conversions and defeats, before Bastila managed to 'assassinate him' and left Malak in charge who is less gifted yet has enough edge over the republic fleet to finish the job?

and very much agreed, on this point - i'm sick of overwhelming superweapons that will destroy the world/universe/whatever, in *almost* all cases they're just lazy plot devices. what you say they ought to have done, ironically, is basically how KOTOR2 treated the history of what happened in the Jedi Civil War of KOTOR when they're retelling what happened in KOTOR, they barely (if at all) ever mention superweapons or any of that junk, it's all about how Revan was just a strategic genius and superbly charasmatic, with the implication that Revan went down the path of the dark side as the result of strategic utility (i actually read, a year or so ago, an article about a US Civil War general for the north - forget which one - which was an excellent, real-life example of how this can happen. he started out rather idealistic in his treatment of civilians, but gradually, over the course of war he and his forces became increasingly callous - at first in smaller doses, because it proved a necessity, but increasing later because he got pissed off and simply stopped caring).

 

[RK47]

And they still stick by that formula in Mass Effect. Which is quite hard for my friend who loved KOTOR to swallow. I tried convincing to pick it up for X360 since he is craving for a good RPG (He doesn't like FPS RPG and I only have the PC version) but when I gave him the basic outline: You go to several planets to track down this secret weapon and finally confront the dude. Oh, Carth's voice is back in there again. He gave him that confused look and said no thanks, he rather take KOTOR 3.

 

[Wyrmlord]

And they still stick by that formula in Mass Effect. Which is quite hard for my friend who loved KOTOR to swallow. I tried convincing to pick it up for X360 since he is craving for a good RPG (He doesn't like FPS RPG and I only have the PC version) but when I gave him the basic outline: You go to several planets to track down this secret weapon and finally confront the dude. Oh, Carth's voice is back in there again. He gave him that confused look and said no thanks, he rather take KOTOR 3.

My brother loved KotOR and yet, he has no interest in playing any other Bioware game, even though they may have the exact same plot or style.

It makes you wonder if the Star Wars setting is the only draw of the game.

I have been to the KotOR forums of Bioware forums, and most KotOR fans don't even like RPGs. Think about it.

 

[JarlFrank]

I have been to the KotOR forums of Bioware forums, and most KotOR fans don't even like RPGs. Think about it.

Eh? If I bought a game of a genre I don't like just because it's from a franchise I like, and then I see that the game is actually good, I'd go and think "Hey, it seems those RPG things can actually be good!" and I'd try out more of them. Especially if they're made by the same company. Just outright not playing the other games of that same company, which are even very similar in plot and gameplay, just because they have a different setting is really fucking weird.

 

[Wyrmlord]

It is too wierd; I mean, if these people liked a RPG, maybe they should consider trying out the rest. But there are all sorts of idiosyncrasies about them.

"I don't like fantasy". "I don't like top down". "I don't like D&D".

Truth be told, they may well be somewhat justified, because their impression of the rest of the RPG genre is based on modern stuff, and they have good reason to dislike it.

People don't like, and definitely should not like, pausable real time combat. They forgived it in KotOR because the combat is easy; but let's face it - the number of games with good pausable real-time combat can be counted on the fingers of one hand. The number of consistently challenging pausable real-time games are even less.

It makes you realize that it was never elitism for which turn-based is preferred over pausable real-time. It simply and genuinely sucks, and it is a forcefully acquired taste.

Also, alot of non-RPG-niche gamers claim to have obsessive compulsive tendencies in games, that they want to pick every chest, get every item, and all that stuff. But modern games dump you with +4 swords at every corner, and this can only drive them crazy. And it should. Managing a large inventory of disposable useless items is an absolute chore, and nobody can enjoy it.

So the fact is that they are turned off from RPGs for RPG staples, even though good RPGs have the sense to avoid those staples.

And yet ironically, KotOR is only a manifestation of every modern roleplaying game anyway, so it is still a strange excuse.

 

[Turjan]

It is too wierd; I mean, if these people liked a RPG, maybe they should consider trying out the rest. But there are all sorts of idiosyncrasies about them.

"I don't like fantasy". "I don't like top down". "I don't like D&D".

I don't see anything wrong with this. If I don't like the topic, I won't play a game. It's my free time I'm supposed to spend with this game, and then it's better something I like.

 

[mountain hare]

If you let the truth come out, you are indirectly responsible for Sith gaining advantage in the overall war. In fact, I personally think Sunry's voice actor delivered the line pretty well. Something like "How many siths have you killed?" and excusing his action with "She was using me to spy on the republic!"

The Republic and Sith had a truce on Manaan. Sunry broke it by shooting a Sith in the back. Justice demands that he be punished.