Game News Bioware: Playing a DnD wizard is too complicated

[Surlent]

While I have nothing personal against Bio, that post makes them look like simpletons. Even if it's coming from one employee, he represents the whole company on their official website.

DnD spells complicated ? Yeesh, how can these people code programs with complicated algorithms if they think maintaining one simple spell book (with no components in crpgs) is over the top for them ?

Is maintaining spellbook that much of a hazzle in the game that it distracts from roleplaying as a wizard ? I say it makes wizard play more like one.
Though dnd has load of useless spells, they also have more interesting ones that do just more than damage or healing.
I like Saint's suggestion make similar spells to just benefit more from level ups, the spelllbooks in dnd could use some overhaul.

But pnp games don't translate to PC without compromises, so dnd isn't necessarily the best crpg system to go with.

 

[suibhne]

Part of the problem here is that the D&D magic system fails (somewhat, and soemtimes significantly) in the context of a typical CRPG. PnP D&D usually features much less combat per day and non-combat skills generally have much more currency, so wizards are comparatively more useful and their limitations more justifiable. The combat-heavy environment of a typical CRPG, on the other hand, forces all D&D classes into roles at least somewhat different from their original design, and this is particularly difficult for wizard characters.

On the other hand, the mana system has its own flaws. (I'll make an exception for Guild Wars, whose system is very good but also a bit sui generis.) One problem, for example, is that it tends to collapse the distinction between very low-level and very high-level spells: low-level spells in my view should be a significant enough chunk of change that you can't toss them around ad infinitum, but high-level spells need to be much more limited (not constantly spammable) and yet still representable on the same mana scale as low-level spells. You either end up with a system in which the mana scale increases so greatly that low-level spells are essentially without cost by the end of the game, which you can only balance by making them useless, or one in which high-level spells aren't sufficiently different from low-level spells to feel like a truly grand achievement.

I'm fine with Bioware's decision to eschew the standard D&D memorization system, but I prefer something like a daily stamina meter over a constantly-regenerating pool of mana. I'm sick to death of console-inspired "RPGs" featuring mages who can repeatedly spam damage-intensive spells against hordes of monsters; I genuinely like the fact that, in D&D, you can only cast a powerful spell like Fireball a few times a day. That's how it should be, goddammit. Axe the memorization system, fine, but put in its place some system that reflects magic use as a taxing use of energy and enables magic power to feel adequately impressive rather than ubiquitous.

 

[Vault Dweller]

I for one think that some of you (VD) are just trying to stir up sone controversy where none exists.

Jesus Fucking Christ, it's always VD's fault. Am I really such a horrible person? *cries*

Anyway, I'd love to stay and chat (deal with many stupid ideas presented in this thread), but I have a party to attend to. BUT! I'll reply to everything tomorrow morning, so keep posting, girls.

 

[Sol Invictus]

I think Beanses nailed it:
<@beanses> After 200 times of memorizing Magic Missile overnight, you should really start to remember it just like that


Throws D&D right out the fucking window. That was my initial reaction to D&D's magic system when I was introduced to it via Baldur's Gate. I couldn't figure out why you had to 'memorize' spells and then forget them the instant you casted them. If I memorize something I tend not to forget it the instant I think about it. That's fucking stupid.

I understand that people would argue that it is only there for gameplay purposes, but it should at least make sense. The fact that it is dumb, and is redundant to good gameplay makes it a bad game mechanic. If it wasn't for D&D I don't think any of you would have ever come up with spell memorization as a 'good idea', because it is anything but.

It's funny how some of you are so quick to jump on Bioware's ass for using a mana-based system for many good and obvious reasons - like the fact that it is just plain better than some fucking worthless memorization that doesn't even make any sense.

As I said earlier, I'm fond of Guild Wars's magic system which features a global timer and an individual spell timer for each spell. Meaning, you can only cast Resurrection once every few minutes (and the spell itself takes 10-15 seconds to cast) but you can go right ahead and spam an Area of Effect spell like Fireball often (instant cast, 5 second timer) in between using your own staff's ranged attack. Depending on the pace of the game, spell casting timers could vary between Diablo 2's quick and fast 'action' pace versus Dragon Age's slower CRPG pace.

 

[Sol Invictus]

Suibhne wrote:

OH! I can't wait. ::giggle::

What happened to your post?

 

[Volourn]

"I'm fine with Bioware's decision to eschew the standard D&D memorization system, but I prefer something like a daily stamina meter over a constantly-regenerating pool of mana. I'm sick to death of console-inspired "RPGs" featuring mages who can repeatedly spam damage-intensive spells against hordes of monsters; I genuinely like the fact that, in D&D, you can only cast a powerful spell like Fireball a few times a day. That's how it should be, goddammit. Axe the memorization system, fine, but put in its place some system that reflects magic use as a taxing use of energy and enables magic power to feel adequately impressive rather than ubiquitous."

I agree almost 100%.


"I understand that people would argue that it is only there for gameplay purposes, but it should at least make sense. The fact that it is dumb, and is redundant to good gameplay makes it a bad game mechanic. If it wasn't for D&D I don't think any of you would have ever come up with spell memorization as a 'good idea', because it is anything but."

You really are stupid. Nah. That's not true. Youa re a moron. oops, wrong. Youa re retarded.

D&D magic system is AWESOME. And, it's more than just a game play mechanic. It's there to show that magic and wiardy is about studious study of magic's inner working. That's why a wizard has a spellbook, and that's why a wizard has to 'memorize' spells. Magic is not some innate power; but a skill elarned after many years of study. Period.

What a moroon.

 

[Jed]

I think Beanses nailed it:
<@beanses> After 200 times of memorizing Magic Missile overnight, you should really start to remember it just like that

You also have to prepare components.

 

[Sol Invictus]

I stand by the fact that it's rubbish and that D&D was never, ever intended to be used in a CRPG. You also need some serious spelling lessons.

I think Beanses nailed it:
<@beanses> After 200 times of memorizing Magic Missile overnight, you should really start to remember it just like that

You also have to prepare components.

Hence the reason why it would never work in a combat-intensive CRPG. Flawed PNP systems work even less well CRPGs they were never intended to work in.

 

[Jinxed]

I don't mind the D&D magic system, but I prefer mana.

Along with my brother we created 2 fantasy systems and 2 cyberpunk ones. We quickly noticed that when dealing with mana, it gives the player much more room AND us at the same time.
Our first mana attemp was pretty basic. You had the common fantasy spells like lightning bolt or fireball.
Lightning bolt had initial cost and dealt 3d6 damage iirc. But, you could upgrade the spell, giving it more mana and that would make it 4d6 or even 5d6 and the cost for upgrading wasn't cheap.
Upgrading meant longer durations, longer range etc. As mana is spiritual or magical energy that each being possesed, it was a starting characteristic that you had to roll for.

Magic scrolls also worked with upgrades. Mana was also used for spiritual battles, when spirits were trying to posses you. Mana also meant potions, or magic items that could be used to store magical energy. Such items were rare.

The recent system we made isn't quite done yet but it basically looks like this:

Magic is elemental, fire water air and earth. A magic user has the ability to connect to an element and use his mana to shape a spell. The caster is in much better control and the amount of mana he uses has direct effect on the damage etc.

Anyway, mana allowed us to play in many different ways, while memorizing didn't.

 

[Jed]

Hence the reason why it would never work in a combat-intensive CRPG. Flawed PNP systems work even less well CRPGs they were never intended to work in.

I agree with you on this, I was just pointing out that [in game] you're not just memorizing the spell.

 

[Volourn]

"Hence the reason why it would never work in a combat-intensive CRPG. Flawed PNP systems work even less well CRPGs they were never intended to work in."

Weird. In all the CRPGs I've played; D&D has easily had the best magic system in aplce. This is proven in TOEE, NWN, the IE games, the Gb games, and the list goes on. I cna only think of a few non D&D games that are even in the same league as D&D magic systems.

Not bad for a system that supposedly wasn't made for CRPGs.

R00fles!

P.S. D&D's magic system has a lot more depth, and background to it than 99.9% of mana based magic systems do. It makes a lot of sense if youa ctually know what D&D wizards are intended to be.

Next.

 

[Sol Invictus]

Hence the reason why it would never work in a combat-intensive CRPG. Flawed PNP systems work even less well CRPGs they were never intended to work in.

I agree with you on this, I was just pointing out that [in game] you're not just memorizing the spell.

Fair enough. Too bad Volourn doesn't see things the way we do.

 

[Volourn]

"Too bad Volourn doesn't see things the way we do. horrible, horrible palce to live in when we dsiagree on various issues."

Yeah, because the world is a worse place when we disagree on various issues.

R00fles!

 

[Sol Invictus]

I think of life as being rather a unfortunate circumstance of having to put up with you and your batshit insane comments.

 

[Volourn]

"I think of life as being rather a unfortunate circumstance of having to put up with you and your batshit insane comments."

Hahaha. Talk about overdramatic.

1. I doubt I'm that important in the scheme of life.

2. I didn't know it was insanity to like or dislike certain magic systems. Hahahaha!

You crack me up more than a dream of VD dnacing in the nude during the middle of a snow storm.

R00fles!

 

[Sol Invictus]

"I think of life as being rather a unfortunate circumstance of having to put up with you and your batshit insane comments."

Hahaha. Talk about overdramatic.

1. I doubt I'm that important in the scheme of life.

2. I didn't know it was insanity to like or dislike certain magic systems. Hahahaha!

You crack me up more than a dream of VD dnacing in the nude during the middle of a snow storm.

R00fles!

Please keep your fantasies to yourself.

 

[Diogo Ribeiro]

You crack me up more than a dream of VD dnacing in the nude during the middle of a snow storm.

................

 

[suibhne]

Suibhne wrote:

OH! I can't wait. ::giggle::

What happened to your post?

I deleted it 'cause I figured it wasn't really adding to this thread. Given more recent additions, I really shouldn't have been so concerned.

 

[Volourn]

"I deleted it 'cause I figured it wasn't really adding to this thread. Given more recent additions, I really shouldn't have been so concerned."

*Almost* sig worthy. :D

 

[Major_Blackhart]

what would have made it sig worthy Volly?

 

[PennyAnte]

In D&D, channeler and sorcerer systems > memorization.

But WoD > D&D, in every way.

Mage: The Ascension spanks anything and everything D&D's magic ever was about or could ever be about.

Period.

 

[jiujitsu]

Wizards are support characters. They aren't suppose to be able to cast a kagillion spells.

 

[Mendoza]

Youa re onc rack. Memorization is greta because it focuses on the fact that to be a wizard you have to be studious. Spells just aren't used on a whim; but studied, and practiced, and perfected.

It's not like you can really perfect something if you forget it as soon as it's cast. I'm happy with magic being something you have to study towards, but having studied you should then know it and not have to relearn it every night.

"In D&D, Remove Blindness is on the same spell level as Cure Serious Wounds. Which spell is more useful?"

Theya re both equally useful. CSW is useful more foten; but in the situation where remove blindness comes in; it kicks the best. There's not too many spells that do what remove blindness does; but there's a TON of spells that do what CSW does.

Really? Could you measurably say that they're equally useful? They're equally expensive to use, and they cause different effects. What if Cure serious wounds was changed to heal one less damage? Would they still be equally useful then? Since their effects are completely different, you can't really say which is more useful than the other, and therefore which spell level each should go in. It's not hugely balanced.

It is for several reasons. For starters, most mana systems include auto regen of mana just by the passage of time limiting the need to even bother resting at all. You can spam the spells pretty much unlimited. It's retarded. Plain, and simple. KOTOR's mana system is one of the main reasons why the combat was so easy - because you can always spam 'Heal' over and over and your 'mana' will return rather qucikly. And, KOTOR sin't unique here. That's common practice amongst mana magic systems.

So because most other mana systems have auto regen that means that DA will share the same flaw? KotOR's mana was overpowered for the reasons you say, but the KotOR system was built based on the PnP game. Until we know more about the DA magic system, you can't slate it for having flaws that some other similar systems have. I'll wait for Bio let us know exactly how it's going to work, and bitch about it then if I don't like it. It's certainly possible to create a mana based magic system without making it overpowered.


I don't think I'd like a Guild Wars type system because the recharge period for skills doesn't really make sense except from a gameplay balance perspective. If I can fire an arrow than pins someone down, why do I have to wait 10 seconds before I can do it again?

 

[Spazmo]

PennyAnte: Care to elaborate on the Mage system and why it's better?

jiu: Uh, no. Clerics are largely support characters, but D&D wizards (and thus Dragon Age wizards because who is BioWare kidding) are direct ass-kickers thanks to their wide array of powerful offensive spells. Starting at mid levels, in fact, mages are probably the most versatile of D&D characters because magic lets them do anything.

I've never had a problem with memorization, mainly because it works. Having to prepare spells beforehand is a balancing tool and while there's any number of ways to justify it--preparing material components or, as one D&D book put it, it's just that the magic disappears from your memory once you cast the spell--it's just a game mechanic. If you really hate preparing your spells, well, play a sorcerer.

<@beanses> After 200 times of memorizing Magic Missile overnight, you should really start to remember it just like that

Spell Mastery: A wizard (and only a wizard) can take the special feat Spell Mastery. Each time the wizard takes this feat, choose a number of spells equal to the wizard's Intelligence modifier (they must be spells that the wizard already knows). From that point on, the wizard can prepare these spells without referring to a spell book. The wizard is so intimately familiar with these spells that she doesn't need a spellbook to prepare them anymore.

Player's Handbook, 3rd Edition, page 54. And it's still there in 3.5 so shaddap.

 

[jiujitsu]

I meant to say that wizards are powerful enough as it is with the spells they have. The whole memorizing thing is just an inconvenience. Just rest til you can use them again.

Spell mastery sounds sweet. I wonder why they never put it in BG..