Interview Bethesda engine can't handle ladders.

[Rhalle]

It could also be about the animations-- as in, they simply don't want to do them.

If you've got a ladder functioning, a piece of world geometry that triggers when a N/PC came close to it, a you need a whole set of animations for it-- from both first and third person-- or it would look like the guys in Counter-Strike, just standing in place whiile sliding up and down the ladders.

You would need animations for the transitions; getting on and off the ladder; and one (or maybe 2) for going up and down. You would need a set of those for first and third-person views, which makes eight. If they were attacked or attacking from the ladder, that would be a few more. If they died on the ladder, that could be another.

If the Gamebryo engine can make pieces of world geometry that do shit (and it can)-- like doors or buttons or whatever, it means that they can tag them with functions. So I have a hard time believing they couldn't code it so as to function as a ladder.

It may be a lot more work than they want to do, but surely the engine is capable.

 

[Topher]

It could also be about the animations-- as in, they simply don't want to do them.

If you got a ladder functioning, a piece of world geometry that triggered when a N/PC came close to it, a you need a whole set of animations for it-- from both first and third person-- or it would look like the guys in Counter-Strike, just standing in place whiile sliding up and down the ladders.

You would need animations for the transitions; getting on and off the ladder; and one (or maybe 2) for going up and down. You would need a set of those for first and third-person views, which makes eight. If they were attacked or attacking from the ladder, that would be a few more. If they died on the ladder, that could be another.

If the Gamebryo engine can make pieces of world geometry that do shit (and it can)-- like doors or rocks or buttons or whatever, it means that they can tag them with funcions. So I have a hard time believing they couldn't tag one to be a ladder.

It may be a lot more work than they want to do, but surely the engine is capable.

I brought this up earlier and I stand by it. If a developer didn't think it's was worth their time to animate crossbows, halberds, staves(SP?) and the like I can understand why they would view ladders in the same way. To be honest ladders only add to gameplay if you intend on designing vertical spaces and Bethesda isn't really know for that, just think about how limited the elevation changes are in their dungeons and cities. Ladders wouldn't add anything without the right kind of design whereas new weapon types would already fit in without major design changes and they still didn't add them.

They only add things that are an excellent value for the man hours. It's a very safe design strategy.

 

[soggie]

Wait, didn't Morrowind have ladders? The fuck?

Morrowind, Oblivion and Fallout 3 all have ladders. There just isn't any climbing animation in them. And I'm glad, I hate ladders. The "click on the ladder and get to the other side" system works just fine.

STALKER had really nice ladder climbing (for the player).

 

[roll-a-die]

It could also be about the animations-- as in, they simply don't want to do them.

If you got a ladder functioning, a piece of world geometry that triggered when a N/PC came close to it, a you need a whole set of animations for it-- from both first and third person-- or it would look like the guys in Counter-Strike, just standing in place whiile sliding up and down the ladders.

You would need animations for the transitions; getting on and off the ladder; and one (or maybe 2) for going up and down. You would need a set of those for first and third-person views, which makes eight. If they were attacked or attacking from the ladder, that would be a few more. If they died on the ladder, that could be another.

If the Gamebryo engine can make pieces of world geometry that do shit (and it can)-- like doors or rocks or buttons or whatever, it means that they can tag them with funcions. So I have a hard time believing they couldn't tag one to be a ladder.

It may be a lot more work than they want to do, but surely the engine is capable.

I brought this up earlier and I stand by it. If a developer didn't think it's was worth their time to animate crossbows, halberds, staves(SP?) and the like I can understand why they would view ladders in the same way. To be honest ladders only add to gameplay if you intend on designing vertical spaces and Bethesda isn't really know for that, just think about how limited the elevation changes are in their dungeons and cities. Ladders wouldn't add anything without the right kind of design whereas new weapon types would already fit in without major design changes and they still didn't add them.

They only add things that are an excellent value for the man hours. It's a very safe design strategy.

If that's the case what's with the cunting chairs?

 

[Topher]

If that's the case what's with the cunting chairs?

It looked really good in screenshots and helped sell the lie that was radiant AI. In that regard that it lead previews to believe the world would be more alive then it really was and that help to drive sells.

 

[denizsi]

Wait, didn't Morrowind have ladders? The fuck?

Morrowind, Oblivion and Fallout 3 all have ladders. There just isn't any climbing animation in them. And I'm glad, I hate ladders. The "click on the ladder and get to the other side" system works just fine.

STALKER had really nice ladder climbing (for the player).

So did Crysis but I hate the fact that you have to activate them to start climbing but love that you can climb slower or faster, which meant something in some maps in MP.

 

[Rolk's Drifter]

2. Every time the player activates a ladder object, ID of the object and the Z coordination of the player at the time of activation will be stored in an array so if the player is climbing several ladders between several floors, there will be a linear record of them to be used by other actors. If the player activates the same ladder object twice subsequently (ie. the player climbing up or down to another level, and climbing down or up back to the original level), the references will be deleted from the array when there aren't hostiles in the cell.

3. Scan the cell for hostiles and store them in another array.

4. Check the distance and the Z difference between the player and the hostiles.

4.A. When it's less than the default height of the player's race (also taking into account the height of the race model vs. object center) between the player and either hostile AND the distance is also below a certain amount (to determine whether the hostile can catch up with the player to hit him while climbing), check the animation played on the player model. If it's, say, ani_climb_player_race_something, make that hostile attack the player. If the player is hit, climbing animation on 3rd person is stopped or the animated object in first person is removed, player is "unlocked" and falls down.

4.B. If Z difference is higher or the distance bigger, get the hostile's Z, compare it against the other Z values in the array mentioned in (2) and when a match within a tolerable range is found, get the corresponding ID of the ladder object and make the hostile activate all the objects in the array in the same order the player did. Obviously, if the player climbed only one level, there will be only one reference to be activated.

5. Hmmm, that's about it, I think. In case several levels can be reached via both ladders and through the terrain that's elevated at some places, it probably would be a good idea to let the AI try to reach it through the nodes first but I don't know if there's a script function to determine whether the AI is able to reach the player or not.

You seem to know much more about this than me but couldn't you also just use invisible meshes on the ground of elevated places that need a ladder to reach and check to see if actors are standing on the ground or on an elevated area. If you associate a ladder or ladders with specific elevated areas like say 'guardtowerA' or 'castlewall4' then the AI would know exactly where to go and which ladder to use. So in a way you create little areas or cells within the main area and just use existing AI to go between them.

 

[denizsi]

I also thought it that way at first but that's extra work in level design and since the editor interface isn't streamlined to associate several objects for a script with each other visually and quickly, it would be cumbersome.

When you just store the ladder IDs and Z coordinates in an array, that's a one time deal the level designer won't ever need to worry about.

 

[Tycn]

Oblivion dialogue was fine

Weak even for Drog.

 

[SeriousDev]

If that's the case what's with the cunting chairs?

It looked really good in screenshots and helped sell the lie that was radiant AI. In that regard that it lead previews to believe the world would be more alive then it really was and that help to drive sells.

And that pretty much sums it up. The issue is not ladders per se but a team of conmen who do only the barest skim necessary for PR purposes.

 

[ecliptic]

I love hearing non-programmers hypothesize on game development.

Except, not really.

 

[Arcanoix]

Maybe this is why they acquired id, so they could lrn2ladder.

In all seriousness - what the fuck? Source engine can do ladders, but OBLIBION CAN'T !?!?!? O SHI-

EDIT : Maybe if their standards weren't so shitty, I'd work for them and program workable ladders in no time. But no - you have to have a fucking 4 year marketing/administration/service bitch/advertising degree.

This is a perfect example of college educated retards taking over the industry - it's all psychological - the fun is only in the excitement you get up until you actually play the fucking game, but it's too late - your money is spent and you're burned again by a kosher'd developer.

 

[Black Sun]

 

[analt]

I dislike Bethesda games because they're overly simplistic, not because they haven't implemented ladders.

Except that their games used to be better, and they used to have ladders. Maybe it was a coincidence, or maybe Bethesda was smarter in those days, or maybe they just cared more about little things that make games ... not suck.

 

[denizsi]

I love hearing non-programmers hypothesize on game development.

Except, not really.

That better not be pointed at me.

 

[jazzotron]

If only Bethesda put all their level-scaling energies into ladder scaling.

*boom tish*

I'm here all week folks!

 

[Topher]

I really feel that Black Sun's post is very telling.

Also, I feel like this is the place to post a few Todd Howard quotes I have from an older (2000-01 game design book). The book has quotes about design from all the big names and quotes about some codex favorite games.

Great games are played, not made.

Doing something really well and making it polished takes time - more time than you probably have. Try to keep your ideas simple and make them work as well as possible.

Define the experience. Don't define you game as a list of features. Try to write what the experience will be. This will help you weed out and/or change features to keep the heart of your game intact.

I can't say it bad advice per-se but when it's put together it's somewhat telling of how he ends up with game like Oblivion.

 

[Luzur]

lets face it, climbing ladders isnt as cool and actiony as having 3-4 extra gore/dismemberment animations when shooting the head off a mutant with a pistol or watching a thief do a backflip over a cliff from hit by a arrow +4.

 

[chzr]

lets face it, climbing ladders isnt as cool and actiony as having 3-4 extra gore/dismemberment animations when shooting the head off a mutant with a pistol.

soldier of fortune had it all, well except mutants.

 

[Luzur]

lets face it, climbing ladders isnt as cool and actiony as having 3-4 extra gore/dismemberment animations when shooting the head off a mutant with a pistol.

soldier of fortune had it all, well except mutants.

yeah, but soldier of fortune was a long time ago, grandpa, this is the new generation of HD games we are talking about!

 

[JarlFrank]

It could also be about the animations-- as in, they simply don't want to do them.

Judging from the quality of their animations, this sounds logical since they only seem to have one animator and he only read animating for dummies before starting his job at Bethesda.

 

[bonch]

This is... impossible. Really, this must be a joke - There cannot be any difficulty with the implementation of ladders in any game, seriously.

You need:
- specific state machines just for being on ladders
- transition from, to ladders
- can you shoot from a ladder? if no, should the AI drop the ladder, climb up or climb down before shooting, or should we implement shooting from the ladder?
- same for melee combat
- same for using objects
- if there's a stair and a ladder to go to a place, which one should the AI use if the ladder is the nearest but it can't fight while climbing a ladder?
- what happens when two AI crosses themselves in a ladder?
- what happens when an AI in a ladder dies? when the corpse falls on somebody down the ladder?
... and so on...

Guess what; it's not hard to answer any of those questions.

 

[Tramboi]

Guess what, I've yet to encounter a game designer that even asks himself half of these questions.
Then answering these is just 5% of implementing the result.

It's not that it can't be done, but a studio specialized in 3rd person action games will do it much better and focus much more on it than a RPG studio (esp. Bethesda) : more animations, more transitions, more interruptible states, more love...

 

[JarlFrank]

a studio specialized in 3rd person action games [...] a RPG studio (esp. Bethesda)

I'd say Bethesda does 3rd/1st person action games with light RPG elements since Oblivion.

 

[Tramboi]

Yep, and bad ones too.