Best non-squad (fantasy) TBS games?

[jefklak]

(did a search, returned nada)
I've been tinkering with these games lately. I tried Disciples II, bought Heroes of Might & Magic VI complete previous year (sold it again... Combat was *SHIT*) and lend Age of Wonders SM and II from a friend.

:arrow:I know by now DII (disciples) is nice, but very very limited and actually quite simple. The combat and world map screen are beautiful and the atmosphere is very good, but building your town is simple, knowing what units to use against what enemies is relatively simple, etc. I did not try any of the standalone expansions yet, so... Combat itself was hard (not difficult in a way to use/progress, but the enemies kicked my butt the first few times). Anyway, I like it a lot, but it seems to miss something.

:arrow: Age of Wonders (II, shadow magic) is beautiful. The game is a real masterpiece. It can get pretty complex at times, and defening cities is a big pain in the ass (which is a good thing, shouldn't be that simple!). I did have major trouble trying to spawn as much militia as possible to outnumber the enemy, but every single time again they attacked with some battle rams and a bunch of much stronger unites than I've got. Need to play it again, with more tactics.

:arrow: Heroes of Might & Magic VI. The game looks so attractive to me, the menu's and nice borders and stuff are all carefully well done. The overworld screen seems to be a lot uglier than AoW and DII but that doesn't matter. The hero specialization options etc are enourmous and I really like that. There's something intersting in every nook and cranny of the map. But... once you enter combat mode, a big disappointment appears - at least for me: it seems so unstructured and clumsy. You advance with your army - but in which way, how, what are you doing, what should you be doing? Maybe that's also just me.


I'd like to hear your opinion folks!
I know most of you would vote for HoMMIII. Never played that one. What about the new one, V?
Is there any other game worth comparing? Thanks!

 

[Cthulhugoat]

Heroes of Might & Magic VI.

Uh, I think you mean IV... Yeah, it sucks.

I'd like to hear your opinion folks!
I know most of you would vote for HoMMIII. Never played that one. What about the new one, V?
Is there any other game worth comparing? Thanks!

HOMMII-III are a good choice. V may be a comeback to the so-praised cartoonish graphics, but I still think the setting sucks and it's too warcraftish.

Also, check the Dominions (shareware series) and Master of Magic (abandonware). People around the forums say good things about them. Maybe Lords of Magic as well, but reception was mixed.

 

[Dmitron]

I know most of you would vote for HoMMIII. Never played that one.

Predicted and predictable: I vote HoMM III.

Just the right quantity of graphics. Nothing superfluous that threatens to overwhelm the gameplay. I can't bring myself to try 5, because of the 3D.

I enjoyed DII. Gameplay relies on the quality of a few units, rather than quantity.

 

[Jed]

I've yet to play HoMM III, but I will weigh in for AoW: Shadow Magic. It's the only TBS I've spent more time with than Alpha Centauri (which says a lot). IMHO, it's the only heir to the Master of Magic throne ...

 

[LCJr.]

Fantasy General also abandonware. http://www.the-underdogs.info/game.php?id=397

 

[Jason]

Just play Gadget Trial.

 

[Jasede]

Since jf often has tastes similar to mine:

HoMM IV is maybe the worst of all. Go dig up HoMM II or III; those are great, both in their own right. If the graphics don't give you cancer, V is also a good choice, but... it just doesn't have the magic of II. However, the graphics really... I mean, come on. Okay, HoMM 2 had a comic-style, but it suited the game and never insulted my eye. HoMM 5's graphics aren't bad, but they look like Warcraft 3. All they do for me is imagine: "Damnit, I would /love/ to play this game with HoMM 3's engine.

II also has an outstanding German operatic soundtrack which can be found here. Excerpt.

Shadowmagic is an excellent game, but it's still inferior to Age of Wonders' progenitor, Master of Magic, which can be found on abandonware websites and is, along with Civ 2 and Master of Orion 2, the pinnacle of 4X gaming. [4X = Expand, Explore, Exploit, Exterminate]

 

[jefklak]

Civ and Alpha Centauri don't really fit into this sub-genre. Okay it's turn based and stuff, but yeah you know what I mean. Is nobody a fan of Disciples out here? I'll try HoMMIII soon. By the way, V's graphical engine is based on a modified Silent Storm engine, I've heard. I fully agree it looks like Warcraft III though. Plays a bit (no, very) stiff here, I don't really know why. Seems there's a unofficial HoMM3.5 addon. Looks nice.

Sorry Cthulhu, I meant IV of course, typo.
I still think Age of Wonders (shadow magic or II) is one of the best there is. Of course I didn't play the abandonware predecessor.
Anyone likes Heroes? Heroes IV or so?

Baby arm: I'd rather die than playing your proposal.
Jezus fucking christ, pedo bear alert² :shock:

 

[Dementia Praecox]

II also has an outstanding German operatic soundtrack which can be found here. Excerpt.

Yes! Best music in a game, period. I still remember using the HoMM II-cd in my cd-player when I went to sleep. And HoMM II owns III in every fucking way. III just became... to streamlined. The magic disappeared. Hell, I still play HoMM II hotseat when I host vorspiels.

 

[Ivy Mike]

I enjoyed Disciples II, even though it was severely unbalanced (5 Death units, or whatever they were called, and you're set) at times and not all that deep in the strategy departement. The story and gritty atmosphere more than makes up for it though.

I second the recommendation of HoMM 3. I spent countless hours on that game, and it's still one of the best. Tried HoMM 5 but I couldn't bare the stupidity of the story (A deamon longing for love? Come on...), but I suppose it's still one of the better HoMM games.

If you haven't tried Dominions 3 you should. It has a bit of a learning curve, but it's worth it.

 

[Jasede]

Blah blah blah

STFU and play Master of Magic. It's even better than Shadow Magic.

Edit: MOBY MUST DIE

 

[jefklak]

stfu and learn NOT to hotlink mobygames pictures
Thanks for the info tho, I'll give it a try this afternoon. Yay.

 

[Kraszu]

I like Homm2 more then Homm3 simply because I don't have to wait for my turn, pc moves almost in no time.

Disciples while simple it is worth playing at least campaign imo, yes many things mess from game it is simply not complex enough to play long.

 

[mondblut]

Master of Magic is eternal classic. Dominions (all parts) is huge. King of Dragon Pass is unique.

I'd personally pick Celtic Tales: Balor of the Evil Eye over everything, but since you control individual heroes (about 150 in total) and fight in batches of no more than 7 per side, it technically counts as "squad"...

Oh, and HOMMs are teh oblivions of TBS genre.

 

[jefklak]

Oh, and HOMMs are teh oblivions of TBS genre.

Care to elaborate?

 

[JoKa]

hmm...does Etherlords fit your definition?
although it's basically magic:TG-combat it's still good fun...try the demo.

 

[Ryuken]

If you haven't tried Dominions 3 you should. It has a bit of a learning curve, but it's worth it.

Amen, the demo alone really got me hooked. Haven't seen it in stores here though, if it can only be ordered online, then I got a problem.

Another title I haven't seen mentioned is Warlords III (Darkness Rising, preferred over that other subtitle). It's old and pretty basic but quite enjoyable too. Warlords IV didn't offer enough new stuff though, for a recent TBS game that game is a disappointment.

 

[Top Hat]

As I don't really play against others, not having my own Internet connection, all I can tell you is about the campaigns.

Heroes of Might and Magic:

0: (aka King's Bounty) Quite fun, and has a different style than the rest of the series, but once you know the "secret" it's very easy to complete.

1: Still is quite fun, although the campaigns are not terribly difficult and most of the time are the same. Not as good as 2, but better than 4. Comes with a mapmaker, but no random map generator.

2: The best of the series, in my opinion. Campaigns have some optional maps and choices, along with bonuses which build up nicely. I think there are a couple of challenging maps, but I haven't played through in a while. I don't have the expansion, however. Highly recommended, even if just for the great music and art in the castle building sections.

3: Another good entry. Some of the campaigns are quite tough (particularly in the vanilla version unless you "cheat") but still quite good. With the expansions (which you should get with the version out at the moment) there's a random map generator. There are also some VERY good/interesting user-made maps. There is also a mod called Wake of Gods, which adds some very interesting features but the campaign is just crap. I think they will be adding a new town with the next update of this mod.

4: In my opinion, akin to stopping a chainsaw with your scrotum. Has some very good ideas, but ripping the AI out of 3 and placing it into this game with practically no changes was one of the worst things about this game. Essentially the Heroes are either superpowerful to the point that extraneous army is unnecessary, or at early stages will die when the enemy breathes on them. NOT recommended, but if you do get it get the Equilibris mod. I'm still shuddering over Spazz Maticus.

5: I've only just started playing this recently, but personally it's more like a reimagining of 1 rather than 3 - fun, but not great. The campaign story is retarded, as has already been mentioned - but there's a funny summary of the story on celestialheavens.com (I think).

Disciples:

1: It's quite good, but unlike Heroes focuses more on small armies and improving the units. Campaigns are generally quite easy, as long as you make use of all of your resources (potions, artifacts, etc) that you can without gimping your main hero too much - generally it's better to take leadership/movement improvement/attribute bonuses.

2: Better than 1 in art style, and there are some tough campaign points (I remember battling some tough draconic armies in some campaign), but if you didn't like the first one you probably wouldn't like this one. I still enjoy it, however.

Age of Wonders:

Shadow Magic: The only one I've played, but it's again different from both Heroes (mainly battles between large armies) and Disciples (small upgradable armies) in that all units are self-contained. I haven't played this one much but the campaigns I've done so far have been reasonable.

Master of Magic:

I played this when I didn't have a computer. Quite similar to Civilization, and Age of Wonders is similar to this. Recommended.

 

[jefklak]

hmm...does Etherlords fit your definition? .

Already finished the game. Etherlords isn't really "build + expand", but rather keep your deck of cards in top shape and go kill some bad guys. But yes, it's fairly fun and good, at least until the different strategies become boring and when you try to switch strategies at later levels, opponents whoop your ass again and again. (The regenerating bastards, those annoying wall-clone things, the flying 9/9 crazyness, etc)

Dominions 3

Doesn't this fit in the Europa Universals / Alpha Centauri / Civilization / ... category instead of disciples / HoMM / etc?
Ruyken, how does warlods *play* actually? I never tried any of the games in the series. I'd like to

 

[LCJr.]

I'll second Celtic Tales since it slipped my mind earlier.

You might also take a look at Battle for Wesnoth. Some folks are put off by the art but it's not a bad game and it's free.

 

[Top Hat]

Aren't Stardock trying to do a fantasy TBS? I knew they were trying to get the rights to Master of Magic but couldn't get it.

Also, Disciples III is coming out, but if you didn't like II you probably wouldn't like III, and I've got the sneaky suspicion that the game's been Oblivionized.

There's Conquered Kingdoms (it's old, by QQP) which is great fun if you're not too fussed with teh grafix.

What do people think about Lords of Magic? In particular, the Special Edition, which apparently actually worked.

 

[Jasede]

Lords of Magic = Fucking awesome and far, far too underrated. Oh, and you guessed it, great music. That one is also a lot like MoM, though less complex.

 

[Dragon]

Must it be fantasy ?
I had a really good time recently with War on Folvos (http://www.lonelytroops.com/wof/index.htm). Simple but fun. And no pink.

 

[JoKa]

Lords of Magic = Fucking awesome and far, far too underrated. Oh, and you guessed it, great music. That one is also a lot like MoM, though less complex.

Seconded. Had a lot of fun with that game. one of the few SEs I own, but it was worth it.

 

[Ivy Mike]

Amen, the demo alone really got me hooked. Haven't seen it in stores here though, if it can only be ordered online, then I got a problem.

Last I heard, the Matrix website is your best bet to get it (straight from the developers mouth) unfortunately. But you know, ordering online ain't that much of a problem, and you're hardly taking any risk anyway.

Dominions 3

Doesn't this fit in the Europa Universals / Alpha Centauri / Civilization / ... category instead of disciples / HoMM / etc?

It's more like an advanced version of Risk. There's no invention of national policies or other "non-hostile" improvements. The game is about expanding your realm at the expense of other, lesser, races. If you're asking wether the combat is similar to HoMM or Disciples, then no. You don't have any direct control over your units while in combat. You can, however, set behaviours and formations prior to combat that will affect the outcome. Either way, you really, really should try it even if it's not a carbon copy of HoMM.