Azarkon vs the Cult of Hardcore RPG Fatalism - can hardcore RPGs sell better?

[Murk]

Man, I didn't take half that shit from his post. What I got was that there are visual/aesthetic aspects about games like AoD that bug him, and that if improved may lead to better reception from those who are uninitiated. Not sure if that is itself a goal people like VD want to have, but yer.

I'm actually curious how Vince manages to stay in the business.

Didn't Age of Decadence take 10 years to make? I'm sure a lot of that was not full-time, but even still.

It's cuz Elhoim is a good looking dude who dicks down rich ladies in his spare time, convincing them to invest if they want more of that D.

 

[Damned Registrations]

Battle Brothers isn't finished yet, is it?

 

[Lurker King]

Man, I didn't take half that shit from sser post.

I dunno. I think the common theme with the clunkers is that they all look aesthetically unappealing from a marketing point of view. There's something to be said about images vs. videos vs. actually playing a game, too. For example, I think Wasteland 2 looks half-decent in images, but looks like total ass when played. I thought The Long Dark looked bad in images, but it's instant immersion when you see it in motion. Underrail, Arcanum, Serpents et al look like mud your average gawker. They all use a lot of text and, quite fucking bizarrely, all their text is really goddam hard to read. That doesn't do any of them favors. Now someone could say that Undertale looks stupid, but it's aesthetically not. It looks like the exact sort of game its gameplay suggests - quirky, nostalgic. The text is terse and in huge font.

So his argument is that "Undertale" was not unappealing from a marketing point of view because it looks like the exact sort of game its gameplay suggests. That is a pretty retarded statement, because all the games he mentioned looks like the exact sort of game their gameplay suggests.

 

[Murk]

I think you may be inferring a conclusion that wasn't implied, but it's not my argument so I'll simply leave it be.

 

[Edward The Mediocre]

How many times do I have to say this, Undertale sold because it was like those Mario RPGs, bitches love Mario RPGs. There's really nothing to be gained from dissecting this game and seeing if it can be applied to normal cRPGs, since they are very different beasts.

 

[sser]

honest marketing.

Glance around the market a little. The Steam previews of turn-based games are almost all smoke screens for a reason.

Which is a bad thing, right?

No.

Bad would be saying you've got a game that isn't what it is. Putting your best foot forward != dishonesty in any shape or form.

I could talk about this shit forever, and it's just my opinion, but basically I think your typical Steam buyer is making on-the-fly purchases largely based on initial impressions of images and ratings. The average buyer seems to be very impulsive, mind you, and owns a lot of games he wouldn't ordinarily buy if it weren't for constant sales. These games just don't seem to want to take advantage of that.

But the goal is to sell your game to people who want to play it, not fool others into making an impulse purchase and buying a game they would never play, no?

It's not an either/or.

And your assumption there is not a good one.

There are plenty of games people will play, but never buy.

That is what people who think like you don't understand.

Paradox has two games in Steam's top 100 most played. Crusader Kings II and Europa Universalis IV. When I played EUIII, I did not know a single other person who was even aware of that game. Roll the clocks forward, employ super-aggressive marketing tactics, and suddenly my girlfriend is regaling me with medieval stories from CKII. Fucking excuse me? She played the Sims before, how did Paradox manage to sell her a grand strategy game? Say what now about "fooling" people into buying games? No, you're after people who don't know that they'll like your shit.

Owners: 14,319

More than enough for the developers to quit their day jobs and work on the game full-time. You would know that if you bothered to read the thread.

sser argument: "Undertale" sold much more than other games because the game looks like the exact sort of game its gameplay suggests.

Eyestabber: “Battle Brothers” also looks like the exact sort of game its gameplay suggests.

Bubbles reply: “Battle Brothers” is not selling like a popular indie.

Dude, my post wasn't even really about Undertale. I don't give a shit about that game or its sales. I come into this thread and almost every other post I'm reading is of people scratching their heads at why X-sells a ton and Y-sells nothing. They're bewildered as to how indie games come in and knock the socks off the hardcore stuff. My primary point was that a common - not necessarily universal - denominator was that successful games on Steam usually have a sort of unique aesthetic appeal to them. It's not a magic bullet, it's just an observation. My personal qualms were that a lot of 3D games look almost inherently stale, because I'm seeing shit I've seen fifteen years ago. And then my other qualms about interfaces and all that jazz? Well, just allow me my obsessions. Anything about it from a marketing standpoint is just that -- trying to figure out what the average buyer is going to want to see.

 

[Irenaeus II]

Battle Brothers isn't finished yet, is it?

Their legs are missing.

 

[sser]

No.

Bad would be saying you've got a game that isn't what it is. Putting your best foot forward != dishonesty in any shape or form.

Are you saying that this is not the best part of AoD?

Spoiler

The best part of any muscle car still remains under a hood.

 

[Vault Dweller]

Bad would be saying you've got a game that isn't what it is. Putting your best foot forward != dishonesty in any shape or form.

Hiding interface as you suggest is a good example of misleading marketing. What's next? No demo because demos cost you sales?

hat is what people who think like you don't understand.

Paradox has two games in Steam's top 100 most played. Crusader Kings II and Europa Universalis IV. When I played EUIII, I did not know a single other person who was even aware of that game. Roll the clocks forward, employ super-aggressive marketing tactics, and suddenly my girlfriend is regaling me with medieval stories from CKII. Fucking excuse me? She played the Sims before, how did Paradox manage to sell her a grand strategy game? Say what now about "fooling" people into buying games? No, you're after people who don't know that they'll like your shit.

Strategy games often become popular hits with the mainstream. Real RPGs NEVER did. That's what people who think like you don't understand.

 

[Irenaeus II]

Don't pay attention to this retard. He either doesn't make any sense or he's thoroughly evil to the bone.

He also used this thread to shit on your game and market his shit no-leg worse than Wesnoth chess-like game instead.

Now I understand why cat faggots like @Ulmicati talked about this battle bros shit all day on shoutbax in the last 6 months. The creator is a pretentious hipster!

 

[Eyestabber]

Hey, I'm all for "putting the best foot forward". AoD really needs a screenshot from the battle of Haran's Pass in that Steam Store Page. And if it is gameplay footage you need, my guy Kitemus shoving spears through everyone's guts showcases AoD combat in the best light possible

But hiding interface is pointless when you're marketing a game that is not about its visuals. For an RPG/strategy game you can bet your ass I wanna see what commands I have available in the UI.

market his shit no-leg worse than Wesnoth chess-like game.

I'm the one who brought BB into the discussion. And that game is far from "shit". Here:

http://www.rpgcodex.net/forums/inde...tegy-rpg-now-available-on-early-access.89524/

 

[Irenaeus II]

I'm just trying to keep the thread alive

Read thread title.
Am greatly disappointed by the lack of SPEHSS MEHREENZ.

#LMAO

Exactly!

Also, the no-legs thing really freaks me out

 

[Higher Game]

I don't understand what you are talking about. Just to be clear, I was never a part of the Wesnoth commonity apart from playing multiplayer with my gf and brothers or completing a handful of campaigns.

The forum and casual multiplayer people are in the uncanny valley between the mainstream and hardcore 'spergs.

 

[Eyestabber]

Yes, well, catboy's opinion about BB is pretty clear:

Nah. Bought it 7 times. Like when I did the same for underrail and have those away on codex

It's a good game, man. Nevermind the discussion ITT and give it a try.

And now it's my time to market my shit no-fun worse than watching paint dry crap-like video:



Trigger warning: hardcore impalement inside

Real RPGs NEVER did.

Well, to be fair Crusader Kings 2 is a more of an RPG than this piece of weeaboo crap [Undertale]. CK has character progression and C&C.

 

[Damned Registrations]

Also, the no-legs thing really freaks me out

I actually think it looks really dumb too, but it has a much better core gameplay (similar to Mount and Blade) than wesnoth, which was basically just a nostalgia trip for me but was done better by even console games over 20 years ago. I've tried a number of wesnoth campaigns, but the never really live up to the ideal of that genre.

 

[Irenaeus II]

Thanks, I'll def try it out. I like the realistic upper bodies art at least. I'd have tried this out earlier if it wasn't for the shoutbox hype, same as underrail. Wesnoth is an ok game to play with your gf, instead of the degenerate CK2.

Brb, thinking of something to market in this thread

 

[aeternalis]

Battle Brothers is . Just needs more fleshing out on the strategic/world layer. February update looks great.

 

[Bubbles]

Battle Brothers is probably the dark horse of Codex favourites this year. Everybody who's played the EA version seems to like it a lot, but it lacks the devoted fan following of D:OS 2 or Torment. Maybe it needs a hyperbolic tagline to truly take off: "Jagged Alliance meets Lord of the Rings" or something.

 

[aeternalis]

Mount and Blade meets Fantasy X-Com.

Command a squad of bros with no legs, who can also lose their heads.

(Really it just needs the overworld map update to start taking off.)

 

[sser]

misleading marketing.

What's next? No demo because demos cost you sales?

Quite the opposite.

Paradox has two games in Steam's top 100 most played. Crusader Kings II and Europa Universalis IV. When I played EUIII, I did not know a single other person who was even aware of that game. Roll the clocks forward, employ super-aggressive marketing tactics, and suddenly my girlfriend is regaling me with medieval stories from CKII. Fucking excuse me? She played the Sims before, how did Paradox manage to sell her a grand strategy game? Say what now about "fooling" people into buying games? No, you're after people who don't know that they'll like your shit.

Strategy games often become popular hits with the mainstream. Real RPGs NEVER did. That's what people who think like you don't understand.

what-is-a-real-RPG.jpeg

Would you by any chance know which are the biggest video game Kickstarters to date? Seems like a pretty simple rebuttal to this notion, unless, of course... re:what-is-a-real-RPG.jpeg. (Let's just ignore that Kickstarter managed to surface a super budgeted adventure game out of a dead genre.) It took the fourth iteration of EU for Paradox's grand strategy game to find footing. Why chalk that up to "strategy games often become popular" instead of really figuring out what's going on?

You can hug your police-lights dance floor interface close and tell the non-true RPG players to go fuck themselves. I don't really care. Bottom line is... that shit needs to go. That's what this is really about. You can't color code your goddam grid like it's a fucking JRPG on a bricked 3DS. I'm trying to do you a favor here.

 

[Western]

misleading marketing.

What's next? No demo because demos cost you sales?

Quite the opposite.

Paradox has two games in Steam's top 100 most played. Crusader Kings II and Europa Universalis IV. When I played EUIII, I did not know a single other person who was even aware of that game. Roll the clocks forward, employ super-aggressive marketing tactics, and suddenly my girlfriend is regaling me with medieval stories from CKII. Fucking excuse me? She played the Sims before, how did Paradox manage to sell her a grand strategy game? Say what now about "fooling" people into buying games? No, you're after people who don't know that they'll like your shit.

Strategy games often become popular hits with the mainstream. Real RPGs NEVER did. That's what people who think like you don't understand.

what-is-a-real-RPG.jpeg

Would you by any chance know which are the biggest video game Kickstarters to date? Seems like a pretty simple rebuttal to this notion, unless, of course... re:what-is-a-real-RPG.jpeg. (Let's just ignore that Kickstarter managed to surface a super budgeted adventure game out of a dead genre.) It took the fourth iteration of EU for Paradox's grand strategy game to find footing. Why chalk that up to "strategy games often become popular" instead of really figuring out what's going on?

You can hug your police-lights dance floor interface close and tell the non-true RPG players to go fuck themselves. I don't really care. Bottom line is... that shit needs to go. That's what this is really about. You can't color code your goddam grid like it's a fucking JRPG on a bricked 3DS. I'm trying to do you a favor here.

I'd argue the Kickstarters were big because there was a demand for more traditional RPGs that was not being met, but that is not indicative of huge popularity (or there would be no need for Kickstarters). The same goes for some of the big adventure game kickstarters.

 

[Irenaeus II]

I don't think I'll buy this battle bros game despite the best efforts of my codex bros here. The WRITER OF THE GAME is a retarded cunt. Maybe if there's a way of playing the game without having to actually read whatever shit he put in

 

[sser]

misleading marketing.

What's next? No demo because demos cost you sales?

Quite the opposite.

Paradox has two games in Steam's top 100 most played. Crusader Kings II and Europa Universalis IV. When I played EUIII, I did not know a single other person who was even aware of that game. Roll the clocks forward, employ super-aggressive marketing tactics, and suddenly my girlfriend is regaling me with medieval stories from CKII. Fucking excuse me? She played the Sims before, how did Paradox manage to sell her a grand strategy game? Say what now about "fooling" people into buying games? No, you're after people who don't know that they'll like your shit.

Strategy games often become popular hits with the mainstream. Real RPGs NEVER did. That's what people who think like you don't understand.

what-is-a-real-RPG.jpeg

Would you by any chance know which are the biggest video game Kickstarters to date? Seems like a pretty simple rebuttal to this notion, unless, of course... re:what-is-a-real-RPG.jpeg. (Let's just ignore that Kickstarter managed to surface a super budgeted adventure game out of a dead genre.) It took the fourth iteration of EU for Paradox's grand strategy game to find footing. Why chalk that up to "strategy games often become popular" instead of really figuring out what's going on?

You can hug your police-lights dance floor interface close and tell the non-true RPG players to go fuck themselves. I don't really care. Bottom line is... that shit needs to go. That's what this is really about. You can't color code your goddam grid like it's a fucking JRPG on a bricked 3DS. I'm trying to do you a favor here.

I'd argue the Kickstarters were big because there was a demand for more traditional RPGs that was not being met, but that is not indicative of huge popularity (or there would be no need for Kickstarters). The same goes for some of the big adventure game kickstarters.

I'd argue that none of us are talking about Undertale.

 

[Vault Dweller]

misleading marketing.

Yeah because marketing simply must be dishonest and misleading, right?

What's next? No demo because demos cost you sales?

Quite the opposite.

lolwut?

Dead State didn't have a demo, so everyone who wanted to try the game had to buy it. Had quite an effect on sales. What's that? People will pirate demo-less games? Sure, but they will do it regardless. We're talking about the only market that really counts - Steam's market, which accounts for 80-90% of sales and isn't really affected by piracy.

Why do you think demos went out of style? Because publishers are stupid?

Would you by any chance know which are the biggest video game Kickstarters to date? Seems like a pretty simple rebuttal to this notion, unless, of course... re:what-is-a-real-RPG.jpeg. (Let's just ignore that Kickstarter managed to surface a super budgeted adventure game out of a dead genre.)

Biggest on Kickstarter don't mean shit in the wonderful world of games selling millions of copies. Bethesda's "wine and dine the media" budget was probably bigger than what WL2 took on KS.

It took the fourth iteration of EU for Paradox's grand strategy game to find footing. Why chalk that up to "strategy games often become popular" instead of really figuring out what's going on?

Because that's the truth. There is a number of very successful strategy games. The only way to make an RPG very successful is to streamline it to the point of it being an action game with stats.

You can hug your police-lights dance floor interface close and tell the non-true RPG players to go fuck themselves. I don't really care. Bottom line is... that shit needs to go. That's what this is really about. You can't color code your goddam grid like it's a fucking JRPG on a bricked 3DS. I'm trying to do you a favor here.

I'm not saying that AoD is an artistic masterpiece. It's not. There are plenty of things I didn't like, including that dance floor, but we were light on artists and our to-do list was endless. The dance floor was done first, 10 years ago, and we never had time to revisit it. Now we're working on 3 games at once, which is a bitch, so again we don't have the luxury of fucking with things that work.

 

[Irenaeus II]

Dance floor is great for telling where you can move to and where you can attack.