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Avellone on Alpha Protocol

Vault Dweller

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Flying Spaghetti Monster said:
Honestly, Skyway is right here. If Pete Hines or Molyneux or anyone else gave us this shitty of a product after all of the yakking to interviewers that MCA did, we'd be hanging them from a fucking yardarm.
I don't recall much AP hype and Hines- or Molyneux-like "holy shit our game is so fucking awesome, don't you wish you were playing it right now?!!!" enthusiam from Obsidian.
 

Darth Roxor

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Vault Dweller said:
Flying Spaghetti Monster said:
Honestly, Skyway is right here. If Pete Hines or Molyneux or anyone else gave us this shitty of a product after all of the yakking to interviewers that MCA did, we'd be hanging them from a fucking yardarm.
I don't recall much AP hype and Hines- or Molyneux-like "holy shit our game is so fucking awesome, don't you wish you were playing it right now?!!!" enthusiam from Obsidian.

Yeah, I was about to post the same.
 

MetalCraze

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Let me ask you a simple question:

Do you believe that SEGA wasn't specific about what type of game they wanted?
Of course they were specific about what type of game they wanted. But that's it. How the final result is reached is mostly a developer responsibility - as they are making the game, not SEGA.

You see developers as some kinda free spirit artists who - only due to their mediocrity and lack of imagination - keep making lifeless action games. They are merely subcontractors, hired to do a job. If the order is "a cinematic spy experience with a sense of urgency" then that's what they have to do and that's what they say in the interviews. Not because they are mindless drones, but because it's the fucking order. You know, as in we want a nice cinematic cheeseburger with fries cooked with a sense of urgency.
I don't see them as a free spirit artists.
And frankly I don't care if SEGA threatened to kill Avellone's dog if he won't constantly lie about how AP is totally what Obsidian wanted. It's what he said - it's his responsibility what he says in the hype. SEGA didn't just come and "hired" Obsidian at a gunpoint to ripoff ME and MGS - they have all the choice not to constantly make sequels/rip off more successful products. As pointed out above if it was Moulyneux or Hines you would be making fun of them right now.

And you also "forget" that when Avellone joined the AP team it was he who ordered to scrap the absolute majority of Mitsoda's work, not "evil" SEGA.

Where? Link and/or exact quote please.
(even when the time frame kept changing, we had no clue the release date would be what it became, and we didn't work toward that release date
Considering that release date was even pushed to a much later date - what were they doing all the time?

Obviously you've never dealt with clients. "Change this" is the name of the game. "I want something awesome, but can't explain what exactly so let's keep changing shit until I see something I like."
Somehow this is only a problem when it's Obsidian, huh?
Other developers working under SEGA's wing somehow don't fail two projects at the same time and pretty much know about their goals and final dates.
 

hoochimama

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Dark Individual said:
Games are escapism. In MotB you'll speak to a dead god whom you can devour. In PS:T to Pharod who leads a gang that takes care of corpses, or a hivemind rat. No matter how great the dialogue is, talking to a 21st century super spy milf can't compare.

I can't think of any other more uninspired and disinteresting a setting than modern day spies. I'd probably be more interested in some anime bullshit.

Well you can hardly blame Obsidian for choosing to do a game with a very unpopular setting, combat system they were inexperienced with and an engine and audience that demands decent gameplay and graphics, they needed the added challenge, didn't they?

I mean their previous games where they inherited engines, arts assets, game mechanics, fans(sales) were developed so smoothly and had such good results, both with gamers and publishers, that it would make little sense for them to stick to what they know and try to do consistent improvements on that.

Maybe for their next experiment they can go for an RPG with no combat, perhaps at square's expense.
 

piydek

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There seems to be no point in trying to discuss anything with Skyway.

The only choice Obsidian (maybe) has is going totally independent. If they want to make great games they seem to want to make. Or just sell out totally and become Bethesda 2. Well, maybe not that, because Beth's thought processes are quite unique.

It is true that Obsidian is sitting on a fence for a long time time now and it's a really difficult fence to sit on. I believe it brings them quite a bit of frustration. It also brings us games that you often don't really know how to go about.
 

MetalCraze

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Vault Dweller said:
Flying Spaghetti Monster said:
Honestly, Skyway is right here. If Pete Hines or Molyneux or anyone else gave us this shitty of a product after all of the yakking to interviewers that MCA did, we'd be hanging them from a fucking yardarm.
I don't recall much AP hype and Hines- or Molyneux-like "holy shit our game is so fucking awesome, don't you wish you were playing it right now?!!!" enthusiam from Obsidian.

See that's what he said. When Avellone goes "our game will totally have tasteful sex and be so cinematic and Kill Bill" it's evil SEGA forcing him to speak this, but when Moulyneux and Hines hype their games it's all them acting like morons
 

Silellak

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piydek said:
The only choice Obsidian (maybe) has is going totally independent. If they want to make great games they seem to want to make.
Going independent won't help. What they need is quite simple: better developers, and better project management.
 

piydek

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Silellak said:
piydek said:
The only choice Obsidian (maybe) has is going totally independent. If they want to make great games they seem to want to make.
Going independent won't help. What they need is quite simple: better developers, and better project management.

I think the only two things Obsidian needs are:

- freedom
- enough time and space to form a team of people that's right for something they want to make and just go through with it from beginning until the end with no changes in direction or outside "influences"

The two are also inter-related. I believe they'd be able to make good games under these circumstances the way they already are as developers. Therefore, going independent would help. Project management could also be an inside problem, though. But it's impossible for us to say whether they're fucked up in management department themselves or if it's a product of constant struggle with the money-guys during the development process. We can only guess when it comes to that.
 

Vault Dweller

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MetalCraze said:
Let me ask you a simple question:

Do you believe that SEGA wasn't specific about what type of game they wanted?
Of course they were specific about what type of game they wanted. But that's it. How the final result is reached is mostly a developer responsibility - as they are making the game, not SEGA.
And you know it for a fact and would be more than happy to offer facts supporting this point of view, should we ask for it?

And frankly I don't care if SEGA threatened to kill Avellone's dog if he won't constantly lie about how AP is totally what Obsidian wanted.
Links to Avellone saying that AP is exactly what Obsidian wanted to make?

It's what he said - it's his responsibility what he says in the hype. SEGA didn't just come and "hired" Obsidian at a gunpoint to ripoff ME and MGS...
No, of course not. No publisher ever looks at (a) successful game(s) and says "Make me something similar". That's why we don't have a "game clone" concept and every game is unique and original.

they have all the choice not to constantly make sequels/rip off more successful products.
Yeah because publishers are lining up to sponsor original games with original gameplay.

As pointed out above if it was Moulyneux or Hines you would be making fun of them right now.
See above.

And you also "forget" that when Avellone joined the AP team it was he who ordered to scrap the absolute majority of Mitsoda's work, not "evil" SEGA.
Link?

Where? Link and/or exact quote please.
(even when the time frame kept changing, we had no clue the release date would be what it became, and we didn't work toward that release date
Considering that release date was even pushed to a much later date - what were they doing all the time?
How does it prove that there were no milsestones? All he says that shit kept changing and that they had no idea that SEGA would decide to delay the release.

Somehow this is only a problem when it's Obsidian, huh?
The smaller the contractor the more it's being pushed around. However, not sure if you noticed but there are very few RPG studios left in North America. We have Bethesda - a self-publishing giant, Bioware - merged into an uber company and sold to EA for milking, and tiny Obsidian - a publisher's bitch. All other RPG makers are no longer around.

Other developers working under SEGA's wing somehow don't fail two projects at the same time and pretty much know about their goals and final dates.
Things are much simpler when a shooter company is asked to make a shooter than when an RPG company is asked to make an RPG that's like a shooter.
 

piydek

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Cassidy said:
They aren't sitting on a fence. If their last three projects(including the cancelled Aliens Mass Effect Clone) aren't sufficient evidence for fanboys sucking Assellone's cock to realize they will become almost as bad "Bethesda 2" sooner or later and that money always speaks louder than whatever involvement part of their team had with older CRPGs, then nothing will take them off their delusional hopes.

I think everything they've made proves they're sitting on that particular fence i've pointed at. And the second part of what you say is again a part of the bigger problem - a problem of game development being a professional thing you do for money and a living. It's worth asking oneself - "is it even possible to make good games if game-making is a professional and not an amateur thing". When the game business wasn't so big, that line was very blurry. Today it's a clear division.
 

MetalCraze

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piydek said:
I think the only two things Obsidian needs are:

- freedom
- enough time and space to form a team of people that's right for something they want to make and just go through with it from beginning until the end with no changes in direction or outside "influences"

Yes because all those Biowares that manage to do what they set out to do in a shorter time and with a way higher production quality is because they are totally free and independent and not inner studios of big publishers and Obsidian churns out buggy mess, sequels, rip offs and "slamdunks" because they are totally slaves, not free to choose their publishers and evil "money-guys" just ride on them.
 

FeelTheRads

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I mean their previous games where they inherited engines, arts assets, game mechanics, fans(sales) were developed so smoothly and had such good results

WAT?

Surely, this must be sarcasm.
 

Silellak

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piydek said:
I think the only two things Obsidian needs are:

- freedom
- enough time and space to form a team of people that's right for something they want to make and just go through with it from beginning until the end with no changes in direction or outside "influences"

The two are also inter-related. I believe they'd be able to make good games under these circumstances the way they already are as developers. Therefore, going independent would help. Project management could also be an inside problem, though. But it's impossible for us to say whether they're fucked up in management department themselves or if it's a product of constant struggle with the money-guys during the development process. We can only guess when it comes to that.
When it comes to project management, it is true we can only speculate. However, from what we've heard - bits and pieces from Mitsoda, as well as various rumors - it seems like at least some, if not all of the project management issues, are internal to Obsidian.

That said, their design and development teams are just as much to blame, if not more so. Project management and/or the publisher decide things like "We need a cover system...", not things like "...and it needs to be as horrible as possible." I'm not sure time is really a factor, so much as talent - or in this case, lack thereof.

Is there anything in any of Obsidian's games that would give us an indication that the technical side of the company (design/development) is anything above sub-par?
 
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I'll admit they didn't go on a Molyneux level hype train, but they did hype in their own way. There were a ton of promises that they simply didn't deliver on, such as multiple quest solutions, missions opening and closing based on the way the game is played, a fun combat system (hyuk hyuk), etc.

Look, I know a dev can't come and blast his game before release saying "yeah, well... it isn't very good", but I find it incredibly amusing that many people are willing to forgive the developers and blame Sega for Obsidian's numerous failures. It's not like Obsidian has a good track record. Either every publisher in the world are evil fucktards that force unreasonable demands on developers, or Obsidian are just bad developers. I guess it's possible both are true, but one is definitely true.

It's probably time we stop giving MCA a free ride for a game he developed ten years ago.
 

Vault Dweller

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MetalCraze said:
Vault Dweller said:
Flying Spaghetti Monster said:
Honestly, Skyway is right here. If Pete Hines or Molyneux or anyone else gave us this shitty of a product after all of the yakking to interviewers that MCA did, we'd be hanging them from a fucking yardarm.
I don't recall much AP hype and Hines- or Molyneux-like "holy shit our game is so fucking awesome, don't you wish you were playing it right now?!!!" enthusiam from Obsidian.

See that's what he said. When Avellone goes "our game will totally have tasteful sex and be so cinematic and Kill Bill" it's evil SEGA forcing him to speak this, but when Moulyneux and Hines hype their games it's all them acting like morons
First, drop that "SEGA forcing him to say it" crap. Nobody claimed that. Second, there is an obvious (well, not you apparently) difference between "our game will be cinematic and like Kill Bill" (which are pretty much facts) and blatant lies that Molyneux and Hines used to spread.
 

Vault Dweller

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Flying Spaghetti Monster said:
Either every publisher in the world are evil fucktards that force unreasonable demands on developers....
Bullfrog. Troika. Looking Glass. Origin. Ion Storm. Sir-Tech. MicroProse.
 

Vault Dweller

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Cassidy said:
Really, this "ZOMG Publishers are evil" apologism is ridiculous beyond orders. Obsidian has made their strategic choice regarding how they'll survive from now on, and they have proved that after MOTB, they won't ever bother doing a real CRPG again, for their methods are simple: by doing slam dunk add-ons/sequels of shit popular games...
You're implying that they have a choice.
 

MetalCraze

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Vault Dweller said:
And you know it for a fact and would be more than happy to offer facts supporting this point of view, should we ask for it?
So far you gave me no proof that SEGA was meddling with anything in AP - yet you want to demand something from me when there is actually proof that Obsidian was at first going all "zomg AP is going to be so cool" and when it failed they now start going "oh we don't want to compete with stealth and shooter games anymore". So they basically knew what they were doing alright.

Links to Avellone saying that AP is exactly what Obsidian wanted to make?
There was one posted in this topic with him saying what they wanted to do (the 24 quote). Why do you want me to repeat the same stuff again?

Yeah because publishers are lining up to sponsor original games with original gameplay.
Yeah Obsidian could've easily went to work for Stardock, which area is something else but monotone console shooters (Wardell even said several times so far they wouldn't mind making a BG-style RPG) - asking to work for SEGA pretty much meant they wanted to make what they did.

Oh I'm sure you saw it
I've posted many times links to both Avellone and Mitsodas interviews (and a blog) where Avellone was saying that he and Parker found Mitsoda's work to be too boring and too realistic and they wanted to turn it into inconsistent anime flick it ended up to be, while Mitsoda was saying how nothing but timed dialogue left in the final game from what he did.
I don't want to repost the same stuff constantly.

See above.
How about doing the same? Avellone using hype for kids is SEGA's fault, but ZeniMax totally didn't come and tell Hines "cater the game to stupid teenagers by acting like one".

How does it prove that there were no milsestones? All he says that shit kept changing and that they had no idea that SEGA would decide to delay the release.
If they actually had no idea that SEGA would decide to delay the release they should've been working like horses, not redoing stuff, eh?

The smaller the contractor the more it's being pushed around.
Yeah poor poor Obsidian. Small contractor, that somehow tries to do 3 games at once. Not because of some unwarranted ambitions.

However, not sure if you noticed but there are very few RPG studios left in North America.
Finally - this is what you should've said right from the start without dancing all around - the famous "there is nobody else left, we must eat what we get".

We have Bethesda - a self-publishing giant, Bioware - merged into an uber company and sold to EA for milking, and tiny Obsidian - a publisher's bitch.
Obsidian is a publisher's bitch. Atari, SEGA, LucasArts, ZeniMax - all fuck them in the ass, there is no justice. I'm going to cry now.

Things are much simpler when a shooter company is asked to make a shooter than when an RPG company is asked to make an RPG that's like a shooter.
So why Obsidian, who doesn't know anything about how to make a shooter, agreed to make a shooter?
See we are finally coming there.
 

Silellak

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Vault Dweller said:
Flying Spaghetti Monster said:
Either every publisher in the world are evil fucktards that force unreasonable demands on developers....
Bullfrog. Troika. Looking Glass. Origin. Ion Storm. Sir-Tech. MicroProse.
None of which have anything to do with Sega.

Unfortunately, everything said about Sega here seems to be based on assumptions. Not necessarily illogical or unreasonable assumptions, but I've yet to see much in the way of "proof" to indicate Sega is the one to blame for Alpha Protocol's failings. I don't think it's particularly fair to assume that Sega is an "evil publisher" with "unreasonable demands" just because other publishers generally have a history of such behavior.

On the other hand, there is plenty of evidence - primarily based on its other games - that Obsidian quite simply isn't very strong on the design/development side when it comes to game development.

Vault Dweller said:
Cassidy said:
Really, this "ZOMG Publishers are evil" apologism is ridiculous beyond orders. Obsidian has made their strategic choice regarding how they'll survive from now on, and they have proved that after MOTB, they won't ever bother doing a real CRPG again, for their methods are simple: by doing slam dunk add-ons/sequels of shit popular games...
You're implying that they have a choice.
This I'll agree with. I get the feeling Obsidian isn't all that financially successful, so if the option to make a game comes to them, they either have to make it, or simply go out of business. For every profit-seeking company in the history of ever, this isn't a "choice" at all.
 

MetalCraze

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Vault Dweller said:
First, drop that "SEGA forcing him to say it" crap. Nobody claimed that.

Vault Dweller an hour ago said:
that's what they have to do and that's what they say in the interviews. Not because they are mindless drones, but because it's the fucking order
Huh?

Second, there is an obvious (well, not you apparently) difference between "our game will be cinematic and like Kill Bill" (which are pretty much facts) and blatant lies that Molyneux and Hines used to spread.
Eh, Hines didn't lie about Failout 3.
But don't replace A with B, we are talking here about how Avellone was saying one thing before game's release and now he almost pulls a Moulyneux on us. And yet you give him a free ride.
 

Vault Dweller

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Silellak said:
Vault Dweller said:
Flying Spaghetti Monster said:
Either every publisher in the world are evil fucktards that force unreasonable demands on developers....
Bullfrog. Troika. Looking Glass. Origin. Ion Storm. Sir-Tech. MicroProse.
None of which have anything to do with Sega.
He said "either every publisher", not SEGA.

On the other hand, there is plenty of evidence - primarily based on its other games - that Obsidian quite simply isn't very strong on the design/development side when it comes to game development.
Care to elaborate?
 
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Obsidian has simply never made a good game. Ever. MotB was an over-rated expansion, and the rest of their games were mediocre to bad. He's saying it's odd to blame a publisher when the developer has a track record of being bad. Makes sense, really.
 

Vault Dweller

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MetalCraze said:
Vault Dweller said:
First, drop that "SEGA forcing him to say it" crap. Nobody claimed that.

Vault Dweller an hour ago said:
that's what they have to do and that's what they say in the interviews. Not because they are mindless drones, but because it's the fucking order
Huh?

Skyway, you're being an idiot now. SEGA placed an order - one cinematic action spy-flavored RPG with a sense of urgency. In interviews Obsidian was talking about the game they were making - a cinematic action spy-flavoed RPG with a sense of fucking urgency. Not because they were forced to but because that the order they received. Not of the "I order you!!!" variety, but of the "can I take your order now?" one.

Eh, Hines didn't lie about Failout 3.
Did he lie about Oblivion? There you go.

But don't replace A with B, we are talking here about how Avellone was saying one thing before game's release and now he almost pulls a Moulyneux on us. And yet you give him a free ride.
You can't just say that he pulled a Molyneux. You have to explain and possibly even prove (*gasp*), dear.
 

Silellak

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Vault Dweller said:
On the other hand, there is plenty of evidence - primarily based on its other games - that Obsidian quite simply isn't very strong on the design/development side when it comes to game development.
Care to elaborate?
Sure.  I will do my best to focus my list on objective design and development issues, rather than subjective "I don't like this" issues.

First, non-Alpha Protocol games.  These will be more general (and perhaps even somewhat inaccurate), as it's been awhile since I've played any Obsidian games other than AP.

- KotoR2's bugs and general incompleteness.  I know this is generally attributed to publisher pressure, but with solid project management and design, the scope of the game could've been properly limited given the timeline they were forced to work under.  They simply tried to do too much with too little, and it showed - both in the cut content, and the large number of technical issues.  

- NWN2's engine.  It's a ridiculously unnecessary performance hog, struggling to maintain a decent FPS/detail level on even fairly modern systems.  Considering there's no aspect of the game that would require such heavy lifting, I believe it is safe to assume it's just poorly written.  Subsequent patches improved this, but the flaws seem to be pretty inherent in the engine itself.

- General "gameplay" in all of their games.  How many Obsidian games can you say are genuinely fun to play when you remove anything but the gameplay? While I love the "fluff" just as much as any C&C/story-fag, I also believe a game should be fun when there's nothing left but the game.  I thinkthe closest they've come to that is SoZ, and I imagine that's only because there's so little fluff.

Now for some AP-specific stuff:

- The cover system.  Dear God, what an inexcusable, nigh-unusable cluster fuck.  Your opinion on "pop-a-mole" systems aside, AP's is easily the worst I've encountered.  I should never press the "enter cover" button near an object that could obviously be used for cover and hope the game designers decided to flag it as "cover".  That's bad enough, but not being able to vault over cover is an unjustifiable omission as well.  There's no reason for it besides lazy design.  Even if the publisher for some reason demands a "pop-a-mole" system, there's a right way to do it, and a wrong way.

- The checkpoint system.  I am fundamentally opposed to checkpoint systems in general in modern games, but I'm not just referring to its use of a checkpoint system - the way it's used is awful.  I don't know if this is poor technical design, level design, development, or all of the above, but checkpoints are often illogically spaced out - going through two or three major areas with no checkpoints, only to run into two back-to-back.  Again, even if the publisher for some reason demands a checkpoint system, there's a right way to do it, and a wrong way.

- The forced action sequences, specifically boss battles.  Not a development issue, but definitely a design one.  Why am I forced into incredibly idiotic action sequences when I've specifically built my character to avoid direct confrontation?  

- The ugly graphics.  I'm not trying to be a graphics whore, but AP looks bad, especially for a UE3 game.  It doesn't ruin the game, obviously, but it serves as testament to Obsidian's technical inexpertise.  Can someone tell me another UE3 game that looks as bad as AP?  If you told me AP used the same engine as Batman: AA or ME2, and I didn't know any better, I'd call you a filthy liar.

I'm sure there's things I'm missing, but my time is limited, and the general thread should be clear now - these are all issues related directly to the design/development behind Obsidian's games - as well as perhaps some of the internal (not external) project management.  And, there are all issues that directly - and often majorly - impact the final quality of the product.
 

hoochimama

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So it was SEGA that came up to Obsidian and asked them to do a "cinematic action spy-flavored RPG with a sense of urgency" ? Not obsidian that had an idea for a real world spy game and then shopped it around?

I can see SEGA asking for certain features such as game length, expected age rating, combat system type and mechanics all similar to ME, stuff that would look good in press releases and help with sales, when they were discussing contractual features.

Yet AP manages to share more with splinter cell than with ME, and it's not the parts shared with ME I dislike(combat system, camera, graphics) but the setting, story, characters, gimmicky C&C, worthlessness of items, absence of exploration/adventure elements, gameworld abstraction.

I don't see things like the mission menu-> splinter cell maps, gimmicky C&C or the way they implemented "urgency"(choosing how to say hello is as urgent as choosing whether to save a president by letting dozens die) coming from SEGA.


FeelTheRads said:
I mean their previous games where they inherited engines, arts assets, game mechanics, fans(sales) were developed so smoothly and had such good results

WAT?

Surely, this must be sarcasm.

I didn't think it left room for doubt.
 

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