Asking for a favor from the Hivemind

[Shevek]

Invictus:
Thats just silly. Now, if OE had pulled the same crap MiST Land South did when developing Jagged Alliance 3D (moving from TB to RT, removing the strategic layer, etc) after having promised to make a clone, then I would understand what you are saying. But OE didn't promise a clone and the changes being made aren't making the game the shit show you are claiming it is.

 

[FeelTheRads]

Bitching about no XP for combat? Go play Underrail with the oddity xp system. Then comeback here.

Yeah, totally man. Same game, amirite? Bitching about the turn based combat in Fallout? Go play JA2 and then come back here.

 

[FeelTheRads]

It's not a blight but it's not an AWSUM design element that must be preserved at all costs. All it does is encourages you to kill everything that can be killed because XP is the most valuable resource.

OK, so instead you get a limited amount of XP, right?

The amount of XP is usually limited one way or another (unless the monsters are respawning). You have 3 areas filled with monsters, they add up to a certain amount. If you want to get 100% you hunt down every monster.

Thus it's not about limiting XP but deciding how they are obtained and changing the player's motivation. If the focus shifts from mindless killing to quests and goals, I don't see it as a bad thing, at least in RPGs that offer more than hack-n-slash.

Fuck yeah, you stopped grinding monsters and you started grinding quests. Sure, you might be one of those who think solving quests is an intellectual challenge for the monocled gentleman while combat is for the dirty peasants, but technically, it's the same thing: you do it for XP.

If the quests are shit, yes. And no I don't think that quests are an intellectual challenge but I definitely enjoy well-written quests with multiple solutions that create atmosphere and expand the lore a lot more than clearing maps from lions and beetles.

So, you stop those who will kill everything for XP, which apparently are a very important part of the gamers and need to be catered for and nobody else matters and instead you force everybody to follow your oh so carefully designed and balanced path(s).

See above.

It's not about careful design and balance (well, can't speak for Sawyer, so I'm talking theory here). The way I see it, either you place 20 monsters on a map, adding up to 1,000 xp, and let the player decide if he wants to kill all 20, or you do 5 quests (involving combat), adding up to 1,000 xp, and let the player decide if he wants to do all 5. For me, it's quality vs quantity. If I have to kill 20 monsters, give me a fucking reason (aka a well written quest). Don't just place them on a map and tell me 'go get 'em, son'.

Then it sounds like it doesn't really "solve" anything, does it? If XP is limited in both cases and definitely and without any doubt everybody does everything they can to get all of it, then it comes down to a matter of preference that you'd rather solve quests than kill monsters to get to the XP?

 

[Vault Dweller]

Pretty much, hence the "quality vs quantity" comment.

 

[tuluse]

Then it sounds like it doesn't really "solve" anything, does it? If XP is limited in both cases and definitely and without any doubt everybody does everything they can to get all of it, then it comes down to a matter of preference that you'd rather solve quests than kill monsters to get to the XP?

This is actually rather true yes.

In Josh Sawyers mind that means players are free to talk, sneak, fight, or puzzle their way through the game and not have to worry about which method gives the most xp. It frees the player to just roleplay.

 

[Invictus]

And why not go all the way Tuluse; go full Darklands or even Skyrim on us with a straight "do and get betah" system and do away with of the hipster bullshit
And excuseeee me for beign butthurt over this "spiritual succesor" shit; stupid me for thinking that agame thatlooks like an IE game, sounds like an IE game, wants to have combta like an IE game, hell that even changed its movement icons to try to be an IE game is NOT an fucking IE game.
And I am not ranting about "innovations" like separate health and stamina system, since Mastah Sawyer stole that from Darklands anyway, but the fact that he is trying to decide based on his mutherfucking opinión not on facts.
Did the backers say "Sawyer baby do some of your magic and do away with supid xp?" or as Tuluse seems tothink "free us from the evils of xp"
And he DARES question if Wizardry is an RPG?
Give him a MMO and put Avellone on board as lead
This piece of shit has as much right to be called a spiritual succesor to the Infinity Engine games as much as Fallout 3 is a proper sequel to the first 2games

 

[Vault Dweller]

And excuseeee me for beign butthurt over this "spiritual succesor" shit; stupid me for thinking that agame thatlooks like an IE game, sounds like an IE game, wants to have combta like an IE game, hell that even changed its movement icons to try to be an IE game is NOT an fucking IE game.

Because looks/style and the actual design are two different things. One might easily want to make a game that looks like BG and invokes BG style/atmosphere but has different mechanics.

Btw, did Obsidian even used the words "spiritual successor"? Neither the pitch nor the updates mention it (other than "Path of the Damned is a spiritual successor to Icewind Dale's Heart of Fury mode").

 

[Duraframe300]

This piece of shit has as much right to be called a spiritual succesor to the Infinity Engine games as much as Fallout 3 is a proper sequel to the first 2games

......

No

 

[ZagorTeNej]

This is actually rather true yes.

In Josh Sawyers mind that means players are free to talk, sneak, fight, or puzzle their way through the game and not have to worry about which method gives the most xp. It frees the player to just roleplay.

Yeah, but only one of those methods expends resources so fighting may become the default least attractive option despite the same XP reward though this will also depend on game economy and loot system.

Regarding roleplaying, while it's nice to see different approaches being equally rewarded (for example sneaking in and assassinating the leader of an army resulting in their retreat shouldn't be less rewarding than taking that army head on, finesse shouldn't be punished) having only one source of XP (quests/objectives) means you'll be incentived to accept even quests that very much go against the char you're roleplaying (evil bastard saving kittens from trees and druid stealing dragon eggs so village chief can make a super omelette).

 

[Duraframe300]

Pillars of Eternity is not to the Infinity Engine Games what Fallout 3 to the first two games was.

I refuse to believe we have reached that level.

 

[tuluse]

Yeah, but only one of those methods expends resources so fighting may become the default least attractive option despite the same XP reward though this will also depend on game economy and loot system.

Regarding roleplaying, while it's nice to see different approaches being equally rewarded (for example sneaking in and assassinating the leader of an army resulting in their retreat shouldn't be less rewarding than taking that army head on, finesse shouldn't be punished) having only one source of XP (quests/objectives) means you'll be incentived to accept even quests that very much go against the char you're roleplaying (evil bastard saving kittens from trees and druid stealing dragon eggs so village chief can make a super omelette).

What makes you say that only combat expends resources?

Edit: all the quests I've seen in PoE beta let you roleplay. There are no save kittens quests. Even something like get a dragon egg for the alchemist lady gives you options for fighting, talking, giving her the egg, not giving it to her, and a few other things I think.

 

[Crooked Bee]

Pillars of Eternity is not to the Infinity Engine Games what Fallout 3 to the first two games was.

I refuse to believe we have reached that level.

Dude, not "we", Invictus.

 

[ZagorTeNej]

What makes you say that only combat expends resources?

Well what resources talking and stealthing expend?

 

[Athelas]

You don't get loot, you don't get bestiary XP, and if you mess up dialogue or stealth you can trigger combat without being prepared (like being badly positioned).

And most importantly: you won't get the Steam achievement for filling out every bestiary entry.

 

[Invictus]

Well you better belive suckas; it will have similar graphics, sounds, theme, and elves and dwarves (much to Mastah Sawyer's chagrin) and still be a much metter balanced and hipsterish design underneath its filthy IE origins; a cheap and brainless pastiche of IE gaming at is finest, but with all the "boring bit" santiced in the name of "balance"
In paper Fallout 3 is a Damn straight sequel to the earlier games, it has the same setting, lore, vaults, enemies, 40 music and hell even Ron Mutherfucking Pearlman as narrator bitches!
Yeah it is a sequel right...and in the holy words of VD a Fallout theme park with all the elementos mixed in like my cousin's mud pies and with all of its great flavor

 

[tuluse]

What makes you say that only combat expends resources?

Well what resources talking and stealthing expend?

A talking solution doesn't always mean press X and win. It can cost gold, items, reputation, loot.

Lock picking in PoE costs resources and if you're purely sneaking past things you're probably missing stuff.

 

[Ninjerk]

Well you better belive suckas; it will have similar graphics, sounds, theme, and elves and dwarves (much to Mastah Sawyer's chagrin) and still be a much metter balanced and hipsterish design underneath its filthy IE origins; a cheap and brainless pastiche of IE gaming at is finest, but with all the "boring bit" santiced in the name of "balance"
In paper Fallout 3 is a Damn straight sequel to the earlier games, it has the same setting, lore, vaults, enemies, 40 music and hell even Ron Mutherfucking Pearlman as narrator bitches!
Yeah it is a sequel right...and in the holy words of VD a Fallout theme park with all the elementos mixed in like my cousin's mud pies and with all of its great flavor

Time to take Ol' Yeller out behind the woodshed...

 

[Invictus]

You do understand sarcasm Ninjerk? I am making a point here

 

[Ninjerk]

To be honest I rarely understand what you're talking about.

 

[Invictus]

So I'll explain it simple terms; slapping Fallout elements to a Bethesda's usual kiddie friendly hiking simulators did not magicaly transform that pos game into a proper Fallout, and while New Vegas was a much better game the fact of the matter is that something that has mix of familiar fallout elements dont automaticaly make a good game even ifthose elements have been parts of successful games too.
So Pillars of Shiternity mimicks other games, namely the IE, but everything else underneath is NOT similar so no matter is if looks similar, sounds similar, and even prentends to be similar it is "not meant to be an IE game"
So it looks like a duck, it lives in the water, it has feathers but it doenst say "quack" it says...
Grognards

 

[Crooked Bee]

Enhanced.

 

[Vault Dweller]

So Pillars of Shiternity mimicks other games, namely the IE, but everything else underneath is NOT similar so no matter is if looks similar, sounds similar, and even prentends to be similar it is "not meant to be an IE game"

It was never meant to be an IE game.

 

[Invictus]

So there the joke is on me and the rest of the suckers, so in the same manner I would turn back the dish I ordered at the restaurant even if I did order it if it has a steaming pile of shit underneath the savory duck sauce I dont want to play this pos and would be very greatful if Anthony Davis could point me out to someone who could erase my $100 plus fuckup so I can spend my money on barely legal hookers, whiskey and even have $20 bucks left over for the D&D pack over at gog!

 

[Sensuki]

The issue revolves around the combat system. Frankly, I didn't like it and simply stopped playing the beta. Now some might say it's because the new system isn't as good as BG's system (didn't like it either, RTwP isn't my cup of tea). Others might say it's because the new system isn't good, period. I assume (well, hope) that the system is easy to fix and it's only a question of tweaking, time, and patience. If they fix it, would the fact that it's not like BG still be a problem? I doubt it.

For me it's both. I would have welcomed a new system if it was fun. But it ain't really that fun to be honest.

 

[Invictus]

Osrry about my earlier Rant guys...I guess I simply wanted this game to be so good and it still might make it but it is hard to trust on that hipster piece of shit Sawyer. I guess VD is right; if the combat is fixed and it actually becomes fun instead of the clusterfuck we have right now the rest of the game might balance itself out with such gorgeous graphics and a supposedly great story.
The issue here is that that seems like a pretty big if; they still have almost 3 months to make it and maybe with some decent combat AI the game will pull itself togheter