Are tripping, grappling and other non-damage combat abilities worthless? DISCUSS!

[Naveen]

people who want trip, sunder, grapple, bull rush, charge, disarm, overrun, feint, aid another, or anything I can't remember right off-hand

A lot of that stuff is already assumed to happen in a normal round combat, it's just that we have grown used to watch two simple sprites stand still while mechanically hacking each other, so we forget that they should be dodging, parrying, feinting, etc. (a bit more like in NWN 1.) The other half, well, many of you are mentioning D&D, and the truth is that many D&D editions had wrestling, grappling, etc. mechanics. They were just hidden in the DM Manual or in some obscure "Optional" table that nobody bothered to use (and I can't blame them.) E.g., The AD&D 1st ed DM Manual has rules for grappling, pummeling, overbearing someone, and other non-lethal attacks, and includes oddly detailed tables with every variable imaginable (including the size of your target, or whether you are pummeling it with the pommel of your dagger or your mailed fists.)

As long as it's well implemented and serves a purpose, I'm fine with those "non-damage combat abilities." But I believe these tactics should be high-risk, low-probability, but with a high pay-off, which means that they are very risky to do but, if you succeed, they may save your character's life or turn the tables on the battle.

Also, it's a pity that very few games bother to implement flanking and rear attacks (or morale, for that matter,) as well as aiding a companion, because those are basic combat strategies.

 

[Iznaliu]

How does a bow trip a giant robot? Please explain this to me.

Not all bosses are giant.

 

[ERYFKRAD]

Making certain enemies immune to stuff simply because they're bosses is cheap.

How does a bow trip a giant robot? Please explain this to me.

You use the bowstaff to trip the fucker. Not hard men.

 

[aweigh]

i made up those Gygax quotes just to troll the thread. I must try harder.

 

[Prime Junta]

A lot of that stuff is already assumed to happen in a normal round combat

Which brings us to another question, abstraction. Game combat is always abstraction. The question is, how abstract should it be? It can be anything from NetHack (hit/miss/damage/hitpoints) to Dwarf Fortress (the goblin hits you in the abdomen with a spiked wooden club! your spleen is bruised! you vomit!) and still be fun. It's all in what the game tries to be about.

 

[Prime Junta]

i made up those Gygax quotes just to troll the thread. I must try harder.

 

[mondblut]

As long as it's well implemented and serves a purpose, I'm fine with those "non-damage combat abilities." But I believe these tactics should be high-risk, low-probability, but with a high pay-off, which means that they are very risky to do but, if you succeed, they may save your character's life or turn the tables on the battle.

But how tripping or groping or tickling somebody is ever going to save your life better than lobbing his head off? No better status than 'dead' indeed.

Not to mention, all that groping and rushing shit is something a peasant stableboy learns well into his 9th year. How did that suddenly become l33t uberabilities which take a true master of the blade to, uh, master?

Pah, if an ability doesn't kill shit, it is worthless. Unless it's a bard in Grimoire

 

[Iznaliu]

It can be anything from NetHack (hit/miss/damage/hitpoints) to Dwarf Fortress (the goblin hits you in the abdomen with a spiked wooden club! your spleen is bruised! you vomit!) and still be fun.

It's funny how you mention two very similar games as polar opposites.

 

[Prime Junta]

It can be anything from NetHack (hit/miss/damage/hitpoints) to Dwarf Fortress (the goblin hits you in the abdomen with a spiked wooden club! your spleen is bruised! you vomit!) and still be fun.

It's funny how you mention two very similar games as polar opposites.

I did that on purpose. They are similar, but in combat abstraction they are polar opposites -- yet both of them work.

 

[Grunker]

did someone say gurps

Spoiler

Someone posted this one day when I was particularly fanboyish, I find it funeh

 

[RoBoBOBR]

Dwarf Fortress in Adventure mode has a tremendous wrestling system, that shows what grappling and tripping can bring to the table: joint locks to break arms and legs, to dramaticly decrease targets combat and/or movement ability; grabbing weapons and shields and stripping them off an unlucky adversary, then using them yourself; taking your opponent down to limit his dodge options. I'd love to have those options available when playing FO2 unarmed build for example. Would make quite a bit more enjoyable, so that i can break legs with STR check, rather than hope for crit; grab the arm with SMG and thus protect myself from a burst; trip a gekko and GnP them and stuff like that.

 

[aweigh]

da fuck u mean my extraplanar monk with monkey grip dual wielding Colossal-sized spiked gauntlets can't improve disarm that dragon!!11

 

[ERYFKRAD]

i made up those Gygax quotes just to troll the thread. I must try harder.

THEM'S FIGHTIN' WORDS COMMIE!

 

[Grampy_Bone]

da fuck u mean my extraplanar monk with monkey grip dual wielding Colossal-sized spiked gauntlets can't improve disarm that dragon!!11

You have to use your were-Illithid form to engage the dragon's Id via Psionic combat.

 

[Iznaliu]

to engage the dragon's Id

The Superego is generally easier to attack than the Id.

 

[sser]

I wrestled when I was young.

And let me tell ya.

It's completely useless when I'm doing it.