Arcanum Arcanum is, by far, one of the worst *games* I've ever played... emphasis on "game" and not "RPG"

[Fowyr]

I watched the intro onyoutube, fond it really cool and bought it one year ago. But I never had the time to play it. THing is I really don't like RTwP, d is it an auxilliary TB system for a RTwP game or the opposite ? Actually which combat system did the dev have in mind originally ?

TB. Also, considering your name, you are in for a treat.

 

[Sigourn]

When an RPG lets me deal only with the "cool" stuff and automates the rest, I feel like a foreigner on a guided tour. I like arranging my inventory in the same way I like to arrange my music library, instead of letting some crappy media player do it for me.
"Thanks, alphabet, but I'd really like to have the heavy healing potion listed AFTER the medium one."

I understand your complaint and it's a very valid one. Personally I think grouping all potions together is better than potions of the same class (Medium Healing Potion, for example) being randomly distributed through the entire inventory.

It kinda defeats the entire point of having an auto-sort inventory, considering a lot of times I had to manually arrange my inventory to pick up bigger items.

 

[makiavelli747]

When i think about it, i just thought the game would be more similar to Fallout in how it handled the balance between melee and guns.
But sadly it wasn't.

I'd installed the game few days ago to refresh my memory about what are you people here were so whining about. Latest GOG version, w/o mods or unofficial patches. Picked a human with "bandit" background for revolver. Per 10, firearms 2.5 plus agility spell and 40 bullets. Solo. Firstly, went to the cave, for grenades to sale them later, then killed the guy at the exit. In Shrouded Hills everything was easy. Few simple quests to get some more money and lvl 3.5 firearms. Then bought potion of quickness and killed the gang at the gates, then killed witch for few thousands of coins. Did some more minor quests in small towns(and killed a few shoppers more for money) and arrived at Tarant at lvl 8. Did everything there, used fate point to steal revolver with +15 THC, then I had lvl 11 or 12, 4.5 lvl firearms, 5 dodge, 15 perception and charged rings schematic, when went to Boil. Then did boil's quests siding with east side gang. Then went to the mountains where famous golems lived... about 14 lvl I had after boil. Now, I spent there about 700-900 bullets, used mainly hand cannon from boil's quest, 10-12 healing potions and 5 quickness potions.
I had 24% THC on those golems on hardest difficulty, but still was able to kill them in few rounds. Money is not an issue when you can kill 20-30 lvl guy and loot him for 2000-5000 coins. I didn't even make bullets by my self... why would anybody when you can by 1000 bullets in 2 minutes.

After all this, I believe people are stupid for saying Arcanum doesn't let you play pure gunslinger.

 

[Kahr]

Of course it does let you play as a gunslinger, it's just unbalanced as shit.
Playing as a pure gunslinger (which is in my mind one of the standard ways to play the game) is just more difficult and annoying than just taking melee or magic.
If you compare it to Fallout, Arcanum is simply unbalanced. (beside it being flawed beyond recognition)

 

[Sigourn]

When i think about it, i just thought the game would be more similar to Fallout in how it handled the balance between melee and guns.
But sadly it wasn't.

I'd installed the game few days ago to refresh my memory about what are you people here were so whining about. Latest GOG version, w/o mods or unofficial patches. Picked a human with "bandit" background for revolver. Per 10, firearms 2.5 plus agility spell and 40 bullets. Solo. Firstly, went to the cave, for grenades to sale them later, then killed the guy at the exit. In Shrouded Hills everything was easy. Few simple quests to get some more money and lvl 3.5 firearms. Then bought potion of quickness and killed the gang at the gates, then killed witch for few thousands of coins. Did some more minor quests in small towns(and killed a few shoppers more for money) and arrived at Tarant at lvl 8. Did everything there, used fate point to steal revolver with +15 THC, then I had lvl 11 or 12, 4.5 lvl firearms, 5 dodge, 15 perception and charged rings schematic, when went to Boil. Then did boil's quests siding with east side gang. Then went to the mountains where famous golems lived... about 14 lvl I had after boil. Now, I spent there about 700-900 bullets, used mainly hand cannon from boil's quest, 10-12 healing potions and 5 quickness potions.
I had 24% THC on those golems on hardest difficulty, but still was able to kill them in few rounds. Money is not an issue when you can kill 20-30 lvl guy and loot him for 2000-5000 coins. I didn't even make bullets by my self... why would anybody when you can by 1000 bullets in 2 minutes.

After all this, I believe people are stupid for saying Arcanum doesn't let you play pure gunslinger.

I have to ask, though: did you use metagaming and did you really murdered shopkeepers?

A lot of users don't do either of those, and doing those things to prove a build viably isn't exactly encouraging.

 

[makiavelli747]

what's to metagame here? I did kill shopkeepers because I was running solo. I could just pick a girl from Dernholm, or a dwarf from Tarant, or learn 1 or 2 schematics my self and craft/sell until I got a million... whats the difference?
nice payment for RP, actually

I've just tried two melee builds, went through the crash area and first town. First is Ogre, other one half-orc. Ogre have a huge str, I put all points into melee skill and it plays just like gunslinger, even little bid harder. Half-orc is OP, because of agility spell he started with 4 at melee skill and had huge speed, THC.. and its only 2nd lvl. plus, this spell gives you free dodge also, while playing gunslinger you are forced to spent points into perception. Ogres can't use this spell because of low int by the way.
that's why melee is easier, basically. stupid mistake by the devs, to tie so much on dexterity.

 

[Ninjerk]

Who did you pickpocket the revolver from?

 

[makiavelli747]

gun shop in Tarant

 

[Sigourn]

what's to metagame here? I did kill shopkeepers because I was running solo.

Just asked about metagaming to be on the safe side here, since I'm not really sure what did you actually RP or where did you get extra info on the game (it's common for a lot of users to say "this build is easy, just head straight to X and get the Y weapon"). About the shopkeepers: sometimes killing shopkeepers is the easy way to making the game a lot easier thanks to the loot they drop, but at the same time you kind of remove a very good portion of a game with limited NPCs.

But if you say you could have done X thing instead of killing the NPCs, it's okay.

 

[Xor]

Why are we talking about metagaming in the context of video games? There is absolutely nothing wrong with using outside knowledge to make optimal decisions when playing a video game.

 

[makiavelli747]

since I'm not really sure what did you actually RP

a Bandit! you know, when you rob a bank and every guard in a city alerted, why not rob rich guys when you already killed half of town?

sometimes killing shopkeepers is the easy way to making the game a lot easier thanks to the loot they drop

bullshit. you can steal all their money w/o killing, you can savescumm and "win" loot from them. killing shoppers is actually far from easiest way. companions are leaving you because of that.

where did you get extra info on the game (it's common for a lot of users to say "this build is easy, just head straight to X and get the Y weapon").

what kind of info? there is no super weapon in scheme I described. just one simple rule that every good rpg player should follow: don't spread your skillpoints on things you don't need.

 

[Sigourn]

Why are we talking about metagaming in the context of video games? There is absolutely nothing wrong with using outside knowledge to make optimal decisions when playing a video game.

Bait?

a Bandit! you know, when you rob a bank and every guard in a city alerted, why not rob rich guys when you already killed half of town?

That's cool, but gunslinger (like the other user mentioned) doesn't necessarely mean "bandit".

what kind of info? there is no super weapon in scheme I described. just one simple rule that every good rpg player should follow: don't spread your skillpoints on things you don't need.

That's why I said "safe side", I don't know every weapon of Arcanum to know what is uber or what is common.

 

[makiavelli747]

That's cool, but gunslinger (like the other user mentioned) doesn't necessarely mean "bandit".

by choosing "bandit" background you are given good quality revolver and +0.5 lvl in firearms skill

I don't know every weapon of Arcanum to know what is uber or what is common.

I know, most of people here who criticized Arcanum and its balance, doesn't know the game well

 

[Average Manatee]

Murdering shopkeepers (unless you are playing an evil character murdering lots of people) is a bit metagamey IMO. Using Fate points to rob someone is something I'm kind of on the fence on since Fate points are basically designed to be metagamey abusable BS that lets you do stuff you shouldn't. In any case Guns certainly aren't underpowered if you actually spend time looking for a good gun. Apparently most RPG players think that powerful endgame weapons should drop in their lap as part of the main quest and that any build that isn't provided for like so is broken.

I will say that its possible to get 'stuck' at low levels if you built a hybrid gunslinger/anything build, since as I mentioned previously it takes a lot of skill points to dig yourself out of a hole as a non-combat worthy character, but that's true for just about any hybrids other than Harm/x hybrids.

 

[makiavelli747]

using fate points is fine because you can have unlimited char level at any time anyway. in my case 1 fate point was equal to about 3 points/lvl up's, which I could get by doing more quests and killing more trashmobs in random encounters, and even that was still temporary, until I got another weapon.
by the lvl 12 I got 20 dexterity in battle, 15 perception and almost 5/5 firearms/dodge. that is equal to 28 skill points or about 20 lvl char.
if you want to find "legal cheats" you should take a look at potions which raise your int for 10 points, allowing 9 int char to use 7 level schematics for 7 points instead of 17.
but if you banned one cheat, then why wouldn't you another one? Therapeutics works the same way, spells which gives you +4 +8 or even +12 attribute points? you can drink int potion while, or before, battle and cast 5 attribute spells... while playing dumb ogre or orc... Arcanum is like that on every step... that is why shopkeepers doesn't actually have gamebraking loot.

and why would else I kill those thieves in Shrouded Hills? that was the only one hard encounter in first 10 levels. If you don't kill them, then you don't need that much powerful character.

 

[vortex]

How to build the most powerful mage?

 

[Average Manatee]

using fate points is fine because you can have unlimited char level at any time anyway.

You're arguing that essentially anything is fine because if you wanted to break the game you could always just grind for a year in a level 1 area until you are at the level cap? That's a pretty ridiculous argument, even if I don't think Fate points are particularly over-the-top metagamey.

IMO using a fate point to steal from an obvious gun shop is a pretty intended use and non-metagamey. Going to a completely out of the way place to find a character with an OP weapon that should be nigh-stealable and stealing it with a fate point is pretty metagamey.

if you want to find "legal cheats" you should take a look at potions which raise your int for 10 points, allowing 9 int char to use 7 level schematics for 7 points instead of 17.
but if you banned one cheat, then why wouldn't you another one? Therapeutics works the same way, spells which gives you +4 +8 or even +12 attribute points? you can drink int potion while, or before, battle and cast 5 attribute spells... while playing dumb ogre or orc... Arcanum is like that on every step... that is why shopkeepers doesn't actually have gamebraking loot.

INT actually has pretty good balance against abuse.

- Low INT characters can 'abuse' INT potions to get a bunch of skills and stuff 'for free' without spending on INT.
- But high INT characters can 'abuse' INT and buffs to get +20 to other stats 'for free'.

And since the number of potions you'll have is limited, its pretty fair either way.

How to build the most powerful mage?

Get harm and then just dump points anywhere in magic to get your magical aptitude up and max harm's damage. Max Dex (or just use real time and spam click on everything, lolz).

 

[makiavelli747]

And since the number of potions you'll have is limited

limited? it is not limited. you can have hundreds of int and quickness potions

You're arguing that essentially anything is fine because if you wanted to break the game you could always just grind for a year in a level 1 area until you are at the level cap?

level 1? are you kidding me or what? different locations has diff. lvl creatures. after you reached lvl 5 and so on, go to the level 20 location.
I've never been in Tarant sewers, for example. there is a lot of places where you can grind levels fast

 

[Average Manatee]

And since the number of potions you'll have is limited

limited? it is not limited. you can have hundreds of int and quickness potions

You're arguing that essentially anything is fine because if you wanted to break the game you could always just grind for a year in a level 1 area until you are at the level cap?

level 1? are you kidding me or what? different locations has diff. lvl creatures. after you reached lvl 5 and so on, go to the level 20.
I've never been in Tarant sewers, for example. there is a lot of places where you can grind levels fast

It doesn't matter where you grind, the point is that the ability to grind endlessly is not an argument that anything in the game isn't OP or abusable or metagamey. Similarly grinding merchants for hundreds of potions is right out.

Otherwise we might as well say that Harm isn't OP because you can have an unlimited level character at any time with unlimited potions and money. Yeah, OK.

 

[makiavelli747]

It doesn't matter where you grind, the point is that the ability to grind endlessly is not an argument that anything in the game isn't OP or abusable or metagamey.

the argument is not about ability itself, but about how cheaply it is. you can buy 10 potions in 2 minutes, and one potion is enough, for example, to do both encounters on west/east boil, or for any other 2-3 fights in a row

Otherwise we might as well say that Harm isn't OP because you can have an unlimited level character at any time with unlimited potions and money. Yeah, OK.

fate points are limited, and you have to do at least something to get them. sometimes you need specific char to get one.
using fate point is not nearly as OP as harm spell or int potions. it is not as OP as grinding levels, because having level 10 character or 20, by the time you enter Tarant - huge difference, but amount of time, effort(or whatever) is minimum. just like with harm spell

 

[makiavelli747]

oh, I've just found out you can snipe enemies in sneak mode w/o them noticing. Also, making AI run away every turn w/o being hit is possible with ranged weapon only.
probably guns are not worse than melee, but it require more effort from the player.

 

[Drog Black Tooth]

p much

 

[Sranchammer]

Arcanophobes

 

[Sigourn]

Replaying this at the moment.
What a piece of shit to be honest. Out of my complaints in the OP, I still stand by:

- The inventory system is awful and would have worked much better by having a simple "volume" value and a "weight" value. Having to tetris your shit whenever you want to pick up something isn't my idea of fun.
- Items are not arranged by similiarity, but randomly.
- No filter for knowing what a merchant is willing to buy.
- The journal is crap, and Morrowind's was much better.
- You are out of luck if you want to know what a lot of items do in this game, because there's no description as to what they do or what purpose do they serve.
- Manual is crap and poorly organized, no index, wastes too much time on ye olde speech.
- Combat is crap. Game is terribly unbalanced. A regression from Fallout in every single way I can think of.
- UI is shit.

I think that's about it. Underneath all the awful there's a GOAT cRPG, but there's a lot of awful. It's been almost 20 months since I've last played it, experienced many RPGs in the process, but this is without a doubt the worst videogame of them all.

 

[Ninjerk]

Well said.