Anything definite on Dragon Age DRM yet?

[Hazelnut]

I'd guess that DA will have a limited activation Securom like ME.

Crap, I was really looking forward to DA too. I don't want to buy and pirate like someone suggested, I'll just skip it if it has securom limited activation bollocks.

Sometime I wonder if these idiots want customers.

 

[Shannow]

In before DU skyway Vault Dweller Lestat <s>Volourn</s> Sol Invictus WhiskeyWolf Hory Shannow Cloaked Figure Gnidrologist Twinfalls

Damn you ^^
Wouldn't have posted at all without this
Anyway, I've now reached this opinion:

If you had principles then you would buy the game, but download and play a torrented version that is free of DRM. Unless you want to feel like a hypocrite.

In the end, pirated version is almost always better when it comes to the playing.

The remaining problem is of course that I don't have an awful lot of money at the moment (between eating for a week or a fully priced 15-hour computer game the food wins *shrug*). And I'd be still supporting DRM. So, I've solved that by buying the game as soon as the DRM is patched out and if I have money. That's, of course, only for games that I consider worth buying.
Pirate cop-out, arrr :twisted:

 

[felicity]

You can pirate and skip it at the same time, just don't play it.

 

[Angthoron]

In the long run, the whole "pirate it multiple times out of principle" thing, as some here have said, will come back and slap you in the face.

Let's consider that - for whatever reason - the game turns out, objectively, a piece of trash, and everyone except the reviewers realise this. Meantime, just out of spite, thousands of people download the game to their HDs multiple times, and once the financial reports come in, the company now has a "legitimate" excuse for their trash effort - they've been so popular that the pirates hacked their awesome game and people just torrented it off! And burned copies of the game and gave it to their friends! Oh noes, they lost hundreds of thousands of sold copies that way!

Oops, you just gave them an excuse, well done.

Things you can do out of principle would be either not to buy the thing, or to start all sorts of petitions, rouse like-minded people to send tons of complaint mail recounting various bad experiences you've had with the DRM software, showing the example of Sony's DRM fiasco... You know, rocking the boat.

Yes, it certainly feels like you get to bang your head against the wall. Yes, there's the awesome precedents with things like Spore DRM. Yes, this way is slow, tedious and requires input and work, sure, tons of pain in the ass, nobody going to do it. However, this way you may achieve something, through multi-pirating, you'll only give a (potentially lousy) dev an excuse to continue adding an even more retarded level of DRMs.

 

[WhiskeyWolf]

In the long run, the whole "pirate it multiple times out of principle" thing, as some here have said, will come back and slap you in the face.

Let's consider that - for whatever reason - the game turns out, objectively, a piece of trash, and everyone except the reviewers realise this. Meantime, just out of spite, thousands of people download the game to their HDs multiple times, and once the financial reports come in, the company now has a "legitimate" excuse for their trash effort - they've been so popular that the pirates hacked their awesome game and people just torrented it off! And burned copies of the game and gave it to their friends! Oh noes, they lost hundreds of thousands of sold copies that way!

Oops, you just gave them an excuse, well done.

Things you can do out of principle would be either not to buy the thing, or to start all sorts of petitions, rouse like-minded people to send tons of complaint mail recounting various bad experiences you've had with the DRM software, showing the example of Sony's DRM fiasco... You know, rocking the boat.

Yes, it certainly feels like you get to bang your head against the wall. Yes, there's the awesome precedents with things like Spore DRM. Yes, this way is slow, tedious and requires input and work, sure, tons of pain in the ass, nobody going to do it. However, this way you may achieve something, through multi-pirating, you'll only give a (potentially lousy) dev an excuse to continue adding an even more retarded level of DRMs.

What a load of bull.

I gave then an excuss? Fuck them, they can whine all they want, I don't give a shit... it's there problem, it's because of themselfs that they won't see my money. Period.

Ok, I see what you're heading at - you just work on your tedious petition that "may" work and I will do what I usualy do - I will check if I'm missing some game that would be worth buying if it wasn't for that that in reality I only renting it.

 

[Zakhal]

The DRM of Mass Effect was so successful that it even didn't make it into NPD Top20.

And spore DRM was so successful that it made number2 on the list.

Ill just wait until the price drops to 20€ and then buy the game drm or not.

 

[Angthoron]

What a load of bull.

I gave then an excuss? Fuck them, they can whine all they want, I don't give a shit... it's there problem, it's because of themselfs that they won't see my money. Period.

Ok, I see what you're heading at - you just work on your tedious petition that "may" work and I will do what I usualy do - I will check if I'm missing some game that would be worth buying if it wasn't for that that in reality I only renting it.

No, you'll merely justify a right to snap at others. I didn't say I condemned piracy, mind you, or went calling you a thief, to me, torrents are a way to make sure if I want to buy a game or not. What I am saying is that downloading something multiple times to pad a tracker stat and to "make a corporation hurt" is silly and ineffective - even more ineffective than making petitions. If someone's really that hot and bothered about DRMs, they should actually do something serious about them. I didn't say that anyone here should or would though, did I?

(FYI - I don't believe into internet petitions either)

And yes, with multiple downloads, you do give them a better chance to justify a failure.

Anyhow, peace, it's Friday night, I'm drunk and my mind's jumbled, might not be wording things as coherently as I should. Not callin' anyone names or anything

 

[aries202]

No definite word yet about the DRM used in Dragon Age: Origins. I think Bioware might also release this on Steam. Derek French said in a post about the BdtS and the installer for it they use on the Steam version that 'they will clean up the installer a bit before releasing it on Steam for other games.' Perhaps I'm reading too mich into this, but it does seem like DA: O is coming out on Steam. If it does, this means no limited activations at all.

For the retail version it will probably have the same activation scheme as Spore and Dead Space. I think they have 5 activations and possibly a revoke tool, too?

The point is this, though:
If we do not buy copies enough of the game, DA: Origins, EA will just use this as an excuse to tell Bioware,m sorry but we won't be funding any more of these (semi)hardcore games. They don't sell that well...

If you don't want the limited activations at all, please, please, buy it from Steam. Bioware may understand us (or not); the only thing EA understand is money, it seems.

 

[Angthoron]

No definite word yet about the DRM used in Dragon Age: Origins. I think Bioware might also release this on Steam. Derek French said in a post about the BdtS and the installer for it they use on the Steam version that 'they will clean up the installer a bit before releasing it on Steam for other games.' Perhaps I'm reading too mich into this, but it does seem like DA: O is coming out on Steam. If it does, this means no limited activations at all.
...
If you don't want the limited activations at all, please, please, buy it from Steam. Bioware may understand us (or not); the only thing EA understand is money, it seems.

I'm afraid that after Steam went and sold a certain game with a limited number of installs I'd not be as certain about that. Would be good though.

 

[Witchblade]

Ok, I'm glad I started this rant thread, because I have now reconsidered on the pirating stance; Angthoron may have a point there, there's no way to predict how the marketers at EA's will respond to which trend.

I must admit that I'm one of those idiots who like to pre-order games I anticipate purely on hype. Might be a good idea if I practiced some self-restraint, and self-discipline for a change (if that's possible at all). Unfortunately I don't think I'll have enough self-discipline not to buy the game at all, so maybe I shld just buy the game legit, whatever.

If they don't realease a demo, I might think of treating a single ripped version as a demo, or check it out from a friends copy.
If I do get it legit and it's activation limited, and my activations do get used up, I'll just pester the hell out of EA. In any case, hopefully they'll eventually release a patch to remove the limitation.
The 5 activations limit that someone mentioned does also sound better than the 3 that they wanted to impose on us at a stage.

In any case, you never know, they might not even have a small activation limit. I think I could live with something like 7 or 8 activations. It's just the principle that irritates the crap out of me, you know?

Even if the game turns out to be rather shitty, if there's no activation limit I will still buy it. I'm a bit of a collector...
(Unless it's something like Daikatana) I just hope to god that Bioware haven't whored themselves out in this game too to the dumbed-down, action fad that most of the rest of the industry seem to have spread their legs for...

I mean, this is a bit worrying in this regard:
http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/biowa ... demo-hints

Eurogamer: Are we right in thinking Dragon Age: Origins is not based on Dungeons & Dragons?
Dan Tudge: Absoulety it is not, yeah. We're based entirely on our own rule-set. We spent a lot of time developing the Dragon Age universe, and really the rule-set within the universe, the fiction within the universe, the characters, the people that inhabit it, the creatures... Dragon Age: Origins is really just the beginning, the first entertainment that we can put in the universe. We've got a lot of great plans for the universe.

….but then I do like the sound of this:

and a lot of the things we have never seen but really wanted to see, we worked in.
Eurogamer: What sort of things?
Dan Tudge: The dark, heroic element; the matureness, the grittiness of the world, of the characters, the lore - that's what really sets us apart from a lot of other fantasies. So much fantasy, especially in videogames, has been high fantasy. Our setting goes really deep: into the world, into the characters, and there's a lot of realism within the creatures and encounters.

I like dark and gritty….. :twisted:

 

[Angthoron]

It's rather sad how the entertainment, and especially gaming industry is turning out at the moment.

Say, you wanted to buy a new car. You'd read a bunch of reviews that discuss technical aspects, you'd go to a car dealer (if such are available in the region), probably take the car for a spin or two, then make your decision based on hard evidence. And if the car turns out to actually be a pile of crap while it was hyped sky-high, you've the right to return it, and on some occasions you may even sue the dealer for lying/selling you a faulty product.

Basically, in nearly all other fields, you're either able to get enough evidence to convince you of purchase, or are able to return a faulty item - or both. Now, with the games, you basically have to trust someone else's taste and honesty to find a good game, and if the game you bought isn't good, and doesn't correspond to hype, no, you're not entitled to returning it to the shop.

There used to be demos for this sort of thing, but they're too expensive to produce these days, or so it's said, and nowadays, most demos, should they be honest and not singling out the best moments of the game, will only scare away the buyer.

Either way, until the publishers/devs adopt the try/buy approach, there'll be tons of unnecessary piracy going on - not from the people that can't afford to buy the games, but from the people that don't trust the industry.

 

[Infernaeus]

The Internet has evolved and the industries are failing to change with the times. There is a new medium for transferring these forms of entertainment, and the copy protection methods and massive law suits that are taking place to try and stop this change are the ineffectual attempts of companies that are only foolishly trying to stall the inevitable. It is possible these heavy-handed attempts to stop "piracy" are only making its merits more apparent. Thanks to them, it is now a lot more convenient (on top of already being 100% free) to just download a cracked version of the game.

New methods will have be developed so that creators of digital media can be compensated fairly, and the current innovations of the larger publishers are generally moving a backwards direction. The closest thing I have seen to a step forward is Steam. In order to encourage people to pay for your product in a world where they don't have to anymore, its generally a good idea to not treat them like shit.

 

[Norfleet]

In the long run, the whole "pirate it multiple times out of principle" thing, as some here have said, will come back and slap you in the face.

Yes and no.

Oops, you just gave them an excuse, well done.

And this is what we WANT. If they SEE this, they WILL react to it in some way. It does not matter what reaction they choose, something will happen. All the whining in the world will accomplish nothing. Only action matters. It is like guerrilla warfare: The guerrillas seek to goad the opposing force into a reaction. Either the opposition will relent and accept the demands of the guerrillas, or they will try to crack down on the guerrillas. This crackdown will anger those who are uncommitted to the struggle, and therefore, those people will become sufficiently incensed as to participate, since these crackdowns are now negatively affecting them, whereas the guerrillas are not.

In brief, one of several things will come out of this effort:
1. Companies crack down harder, and the DRM becomes more outrageous and unacceptable to the peasantry, who will revolt against it. The rebellion thus grows.
2. Companies quit making games for PC and flee to consoles. Good riddance to bad rubbish. New companies will show up to fill the PC void, who likely have a better understanding of why this happened and how to avoid this.
3. Companies abandon DRM. Mission accomplished.

The fact of the matter is, a shift is already occurring. Piracy used to be the province of kids, foreigners, and other disreputable classes. It was something that was generally not permitted to be discussed openly. Now it is changing: People who formerly never had never even considered it are becoming open to it. The matter is discussed often openly. And motivations have gone from being personal to being political. And while the impact of personal piracy is debatable, the impacts of politically motivated piracy are decidedly harmful. When someone pirates for personal reasons (no money/likes free shit/not sold here), they generally LIKE the game, and promote the game while concealing their method of acquisition: They want the game to succeed, they just don't want to pay for it or can't pay for it, and don't believe their actions cause significant harm, regardless of whether this is true or not. When someone pirates for a political agenda, this is different: He does NOT promote the game as a great, wonderful thing. He does NOT want the company to succeed, and he will evangelize this because he WANTS to cause harm. It is this intent to cause pain that seperates the political from the personal. Arguments like "you are destroying PC gaming" are met with denial and refutation from the personally motivate pirate, but are met with cheers and huzzahs from the politically motivated.

 

[Volourn]

L0L Supporting theivery shows a lack of morals. Period.

 

[Angthoron]

In the long run, the whole "pirate it multiple times out of principle" thing, as some here have said, will come back and slap you in the face.

Yes and no.

Oops, you just gave them an excuse, well done.

And this is what we WANT. If they SEE this, they WILL react to it in some way. It does not matter what reaction they choose, something will happen. All the whining in the world will accomplish nothing. Only action matters. It is like guerrilla warfare: The guerrillas seek to goad the opposing force into a reaction. Either the opposition will relent and accept the demands of the guerrillas, or they will try to crack down on the guerrillas. This crackdown will anger those who are uncommitted to the struggle, and therefore, those people will become sufficiently incensed as to participate, since these crackdowns are now negatively affecting them, whereas the guerrillas are not.

In brief, one of several things will come out of this effort:
1. Companies crack down harder, and the DRM becomes more outrageous and unacceptable to the peasantry, who will revolt against it. The rebellion thus grows.
2. Companies quit making games for PC and flee to consoles. Good riddance to bad rubbish. New companies will show up to fill the PC void, who likely have a better understanding of why this happened and how to avoid this.
3. Companies abandon DRM. Mission accomplished.

The fact of the matter is, a shift is already occurring. Piracy used to be the province of kids, foreigners, and other disreputable classes. It was something that was generally not permitted to be discussed openly. Now it is changing: People who formerly never had never even considered it are becoming open to it. The matter is discussed often openly. And motivations have gone from being personal to being political. And while the impact of personal piracy is debatable, the impacts of politically motivated piracy are decidedly harmful. When someone pirates for personal reasons (no money/likes free shit/not sold here), they generally LIKE the game, and promote the game while concealing their method of acquisition: They want the game to succeed, they just don't want to pay for it or can't pay for it, and don't believe their actions cause significant harm, regardless of whether this is true or not. When someone pirates for a political agenda, this is different: He does NOT promote the game as a great, wonderful thing. He does NOT want the company to succeed, and he will evangelize this because he WANTS to cause harm. It is this intent to cause pain that seperates the political from the personal. Arguments like "you are destroying PC gaming" are met with denial and refutation from the personally motivate pirate, but are met with cheers and huzzahs from the politically motivated.

Would be quite awesome if everything was one-two-three-simple; unfortunately, it's not.

First of all, "open admission" of piracy is not as common as you may believe, and is far from being positive. Yes, certain circles of angry old-school gamers will be with you on this, seeing the heated debates on the Codex, for example, does indicate this. However, you should keep in mind that "free speech" and "anonymity" on the Intrawebs are only applicable as long as nobody cares about who you are and through that, you can pretty well see that since the "political" pirates aren't being arrested and dragged to courts, nobody simply gives enough a damn.

Sorry, "political" pirates are not guerillas - they may believe themselves to be, but in the end, nobody cares. No, they're on the same image level with the modern-day terrorists - every blame will be pinned down on them. Bad sales? It's them! More DRMs? Them again! Shitty games? Must be their fault too! And yet they're let to be around. Why? Because they're good to have around. Who else to blame if they're gone? Companies themselves? Hah. As if. "Political" pirates are a free asset to the marketing departments all around the world if we look at it in a very cynical way. And furthermore, who will hate them for their actions the most, when the DRMs kick in harder than before, when companies move to consoles? Why, the simple normal gamers in whose very interests they are supposed to be acting...

Of course, I'll not claim my post to be a claim for absolute truth here - it may be that you're right and that the anti-DRM piracy-based crusade will pay off in spades in the end, but this is another way to look at it. And as I've previously said, if someone's really that hot and bothered to fight against the DRMs, against bad games, about greedy companies, there are other, legal and powerful means.

However, right now, the pirate, whether personally or politically motivated, is a scapegoat, and, to legislations of most "civilised" countries, a criminal. Which isn't necessarily the best image to carry around.


P.S: What do you mean as the "foreigners", anyway? A little ambiguous here in the Intrawebs.

Edit: Gah typoes.

 

[Rhalle]

L0L Supporting theivery shows a lack of morals. Period.

I agree: it is theft. And more piracy will only make them drop PC faster.

(That's surely what they want anyway and where they will go soon enough, so the issue is pretty much moot.)

But what other form of consumer protest besides "don't buy a game" would you suggest to get a few licks in on Big Publishing?

They aren't going to stop releasing dumbed-down and truncated mass market shit, shit unready for launch that they patch through (if they patch at all), games with content bascially elided so as to be sold later, garbage ports that try to make a few bucks off of a platform they don't care about just because someone posts their disapproval on a message board and claims to refrain from purchasing a product or even gives them a thumbs down at Amazon.com.

Stealing it (or even appearing to steal it) is a big fuck you to the greed machine ruining the medium, the perceived loss of revenue the only thing they really care about.

Arguably the real moral problem is this: it's impossible to torrent them into bankruptcy.

 

[VonVentrue]

No definite word yet about the DRM used in Dragon Age: Origins. I think Bioware might also release this on Steam. Derek French said in a post about the BdtS and the installer for it they use on the Steam version that 'they will clean up the installer a bit before releasing it on Steam for other games.' Perhaps I'm reading too mich into this, but it does seem like DA: O is coming out on Steam. If it does, this means no limited activations at all.
(...)
If you don't want the limited activations at all, please, please, buy it from Steam. Bioware may understand us (or not); the only thing EA understand is money, it seems.

I wholeheartedly agree, if the current EA releases are any indicator, future Steam versions coming from this particular publisher should also be SecuROM-free. The most effective form of protest would be to purchase games there.

 

[Infernaeus]

L0L Supporting theivery shows a lack of morals. Period.

Only the Sith deal in absolutes.

 

[MetalCraze]

L0L Supporting theivery shows a lack of morals. Period.

I agree: it is theft. And more piracy will only make them drop PC faster.

I think I know the cure for PC gaming.

 

[Norfleet]

Sorry, "political" pirates are not guerillas - they may believe themselves to be, but in the end, nobody cares. No, they're on the same image level with the modern-day terrorists - every blame will be pinned down on them.

Terrorists, guerrillas, all simply points of view. The man difference between a terrorist and a freedom fighter is pretty much down to your perspective. The fact that you can even label them as terrorists at all pretty much demonstrates their equivalency. The fact that the activity has gone from being "thievery" to "terrorism" already represents a shift.

"Political" pirates are a free asset to the marketing departments all around the world if we look at it in a very cynical way. And furthermore, who will hate them for their actions the most, when the DRMs kick in harder than before, when companies move to consoles? Why, the simple normal gamers in whose very interests they are supposed to be acting...

Pirates in general can be viewed as an asset to marketing departments. The political kind, however, is sending a negative message, likely to a receptive audience. I run a forum where I have actually seen this shift happen: People have gone from being customers to being pirates out of irritation and outrage, and have converted others. Where piracy used to be a personal decision, now it is something that is evangelized, all as a direct result of increasing awareness of DRM spyware. And this the "hardcore traditional gamer" crowd I'm talking about.

Of course, I'll not claim my post to be a claim for absolute truth here - it may be that you're right and that the anti-DRM piracy-based crusade will pay off in spades in the end, but this is another way to look at it. And as I've previously said, if someone's really that hot and bothered to fight against the DRMs, against bad games, about greedy companies, there are other, legal and powerful means.

This may be true, but those methods are available only to those with money and lawyers. The fact of the matter is, it's already paying off. Some companies have already reached point 3 above and are now using it as a selling point. Others stubbornly cling, and the fighting continues, with their escalations of it resulting in increasing public outrage.

However, right now, the pirate, whether personally or politically motivated, is a scapegoat, and, to legislations of most "civilised" countries, a criminal. Which isn't necessarily the best image to carry around.

Considering that "piracy" has gone from something performed by shady operators to a movement that now has recognized political parties, I'd say the image is improving rather than worsening. The old content model may be dead in 30 years.

P.S: What do you mean as the "foreigners", anyway? A little ambiguous here in the Intrawebs.

"Foreigners", as in those who, due to locality issues, are excluded from purchasing the product, either because of extremely unfavorable exchange rates, or the flat-out refusal of the company to even do business with them (won't sell, spyware-based online lockouts, etc). Exactly who gets to be a "foreigner" varies by item, but the most common example-causes are companies that won't deal with those in another country, and people in third-world or eastern-European countries whose exchange rates simply don't realistically permit them to purchase anything at the prices demanded, because if you expect someone to spend 2 months pay on a game, you are insane. In short, if you can't realistically buy the item in question even if you wanted to, you qualify in this category, and your activities are essentially financially irrelevant to the company as you couldn't buy it even if you wanted to.

I think I know the cure for PC gaming.

To save the village, you have to burn the village.

I wholeheartedly agree, if the current EA releases are any indicator, future Steam versions coming from this particular publisher should also be SecuROM-free. The most effective form of protest would be to purchase games there.

Surely you are mad. Steam is the original DRM malware. You can't play it without being connected, you can't play it unless you accept the latest kool-aid, and it spies on your playing habits while you do all this. It is quite possibly the most malicious form of DRM on the market today, made all the more insidious by its PR. The cake really is a lie. Anything which forces the arbitrary modification of executable code at the whims of third party can ONLY be described as malware. Consider that: Steam is a giant trojan that will hold all of your "purchases" hostage unless you allow them to arbitrarily modify that code. They won't let you play if you don't install the latest "patches". In the world of computer software, this is a huge backdoor into the very heart of your system. While autopatching general should be looked at with suspicion, the fact that they won't even let you NOT patch proves the obvious malicious intent behind this scheme. Don't drink the kool-aid.

 

[Infernaeus]

Are you guys seriously discussing internet piracy and real high seas piracy and international terrorism as if they have anything in common other than the name and some very vague, pointless philosophical musings?

EDIT: Out of curiosity, how exactly are Valve using Steam to any malicious purposes?

 

[Angthoron]

Are you guys seriously discussing internet piracy and real high seas piracy and international terrorism as if they have anything in common other than the name and some very vague, pointless philosophical musings?

No, I was referring to the fact that just like real-world terrorists, the internet pirates are exploited left and right by both their "targets" and their "leaders". I'm sure I could make a ton of other similes, but this one was the most obvious to make.

In a sense, the only similarity between the two is that they're left to roam freely to give people a convenient scapegoat or scarecrow and organise public performances of justice upon. But I said that in the earlier post and there's no point to re-iterate it further.

This may be true, but those methods are available only to those with money and lawyers. The fact of the matter is, it's already paying off. Some companies have already reached point 3 above and are now using it as a selling point. Others stubbornly cling, and the fighting continues, with their escalations of it resulting in increasing public outrage.

Could you give some examples, please? I'm afraid I'm not aware of anyone else but Sony, and the DRMs it provided, plus the StarForce issues that a couple of corporations ended up cancelling deals with because it was plain bugged and incompatible with a lot of hardware (plus the enormous whine the communities rose because of it). I'm not following it much so I may have missed much of the happenings.

Also - if the "Political Piracy" is as influential, why is it permitted to continue? Whenever in real life there is a faction that tries to oppose the money-making or the power-mongering, there is generally retribution coming to them once they become influential enough. Why do we not see this happening?

Eastern-European countries whose exchange rates simply don't realistically permit them to purchase anything at the prices demanded, because if you expect someone to spend 2 months pay on a game, you are insane.

Well, this has actually been fixed since the introduction of specially scaled prices in several Eastern Europe countries.

And... Well. We're using teh intranets here, so using a phrase like "foreigners" in it is odd - this isn't national space of US or anything.

 

[aries202]

More piracy on the internet towards PC-games will make EA (and other publishers) drop the PC as a gaming platform in an instant. I wouldn't want that at all :!: Neither would any of you, I think...

Mass Effect is out oun Steam. It does not have any limited activations; that is why I predicted that DA: Origins wouldn't have any either - if (when) it comes out on Steam.

As I understand it, Steam do let you play your games when (if) you're off-line?

You do know that amazon.com and other internet sites also 'spies' on what you do when you search the site? I also get the 'recommended for you' option when I visit amazon's site. Google makes recommendations, too, based on your internet habits. I have no problems with this.

Isn't there an option in Steam where you can choose to not 'auto-update' your games bought on Steam.

 

[Witchblade]

I think PC lovers are very much between a rock and a hard place here. When I started my impulsive little rant, I think I had forgotten to what an extent consoles had taken our leverage away.
I admit that the fear that PC will be abandoned as a platform reduces my cockiness to jelly. Of course, hopefully we'll still have strategy games on PC at least, but gone are the days of things like the text-adventure that ensures the PC an undeniable place as a platform.

I am saddened to see, from some of the above posts, that piracy has become so prevalent, and I revise my earlier stance of blindly lashing out at cocky marketers, who clearly have no love for the industry and the gaming community itself, but only have dollar signs in their sights.

Perhaps the politicking should take another form then; that of encouraging gamers to support the industry that they draw pleasure from, with their wallets. On the other hand, I wish the publishers will likewise compromise and acknowledge that there will always be a base market for piracy; - those that for some reason or another, simply cannot afford the games, or who are blocked due to geographical locality.

Whatever happened to the spirit of decency; of "pay for what you get"? I think there is another genre of pirate that has arisen lately, not the "I steal because I am hungry, and have no money for food kind"; not even the politically aroused angry kind that I started the thread off as; but those that pirate because of the culture of easy entitlement that the internet has bred. These are the : "I take because I can" pirates. Those are the ones that I have issue with.
Sure, you take what you can and get away with it, but someone spent a lot of time and effort and hard work creating the product that you are not compensating them for. Devs and producers also need to eat and pay bills. They are not magically sustained by the fact that thousands of people enjoy the products they created.

Ok, that was my take on the pirates.

The other worrying scenario fits in with that one. I suppose it is understandable that if the industry eventually receives no more income from PC game sales, it simply will not be viable for them to continue. Let's hope that before all devs and publishers take the final step of moving to console only, (And like some earlier posters had said:- if it's mindless buggy rubbish, perhaps good riddance), they will research their market for the reasons people are not buying their games - if reviews (gamer reviews and comments, not the reviews of bought professionals) of the game are positive, yet sales are non-existent, I suppose that inevitably the finger will point to piracy, and the move to console is inevitable.

I suspect their piracy nightmare will follow them, though. I know many, many people who have "chipped" consoles, and who make use of pirated console games.
It amazes me that the industry has not caught on to the fact that piracy is rife amongst console gamers too.
I suspect they will have to start using better anti-piracy technology on console machines and games, which will push up the price of these items, perhaps giving the PC a foot in the door again...

 

[Norfleet]

Could you give some examples, please? I'm afraid I'm not aware of anyone else but Sony, and the DRMs it provided, plus the StarForce issues that a couple of corporations ended up cancelling deals with because it was plain bugged and incompatible with a lot of hardware (plus the enormous whine the communities rose because of it). I'm not following it much so I may have missed much of the happenings.

Well, at the very top of the forum as I wrote this was a company advertising their "DRM-free"-ness. Ubisoft has dumped the entire DRM thing on that Prince of Persia thing. Several lawsuits are allegedly in practice over EA's DRM. Things are obviously MOVING, regardless if the direction is presently meaningful.

Also - if the "Political Piracy" is as influential, why is it permitted to continue?

You say "permitted to continue" as if it was something that companies are empowered to stop. They've tried: They slap ever more restrictive DRM measures, set spies to catch pirates, and for all their efforts, all they manage to attain from this is bad publicity, because the success rate in identifying and stopping pirates still makes piracy a safer activity than crossing the street, and those prosecuted become yet another albatross around the company's neck as they wind up going after some 12 year old kid or a person who is now homeless. The fact of the matter is that these companies simply don't know how to deal with this, much like a cumbersome government army attempting to stamp out a guerrilla insurgency.

Whenever in real life there is a faction that tries to oppose the money-making or the power-mongering, there is generally retribution coming to them once they become influential enough. Why do we not see this happening?

We do. For the most part, the efforts are pitiful failures that serve only to create further outrage. The fact of the matter is that any penalty the company can hope to impose will appear grossly disproportionate and thus simply inflame the public against them.

Well, this has actually been fixed since the introduction of specially scaled prices in several Eastern Europe countries.

Which is certainly one method that has been used to reduce this sort of activity and gain sales, but it is not universally implemented.

And... Well. We're using teh intranets here, so using a phrase like "foreigners" in it is odd - this isn't national space of US or anything.

Well, it's a subjective term for a subjective phenomenon. When an American can't purchase a game because it's not sold in the US, he's a foreigner now. When a non-American can't purchase a game because the company will only sell in the US (most common case), he ends up with the "foreigner" problem. Bafflingly, the condition often afflicts people despite the fact that the item in question may be a digital download and payment methods include Paypal, which, of course, is pure foolishness and can only result in losses for the company.

More piracy on the internet towards PC-games will make EA (and other publishers) drop the PC as a gaming platform in an instant. I wouldn't want that at all :!: Neither would any of you, I think...

Maybe you don't. I'm fine with that. We survived before EA, and we will continue without them. If publishers drop the PC and flee to consoles, their problems will follow them, and the void will be filled by a newer, smarter, and more market-saavy breed of independents, which will in turn merge to form the new out-of-touch conglomerate, and history will repeat itself over time again.

You do know that amazon.com and other internet sites also 'spies' on what you do when you search the site? I also get the 'recommended for you' option when I visit amazon's site. Google makes recommendations, too, based on your internet habits. I have no problems with this.

I'm familiar with the level of spyware embedded on the Internet, yes: Adblock and noscript, never leave home without it. Just because the problem is endemic doesn't mean it's right, and the ability to track your browsing habits is nowhere equivalent to being able to directly scan the contents of your computer, just as the ability to read your mail and tap your phone is not the same as being able to read your brain.

Isn't there an option in Steam where you can choose to not 'auto-update' your games bought on Steam.

If it exists it's not universal, and does nothing to address the other issues.

I think PC lovers are very much between a rock and a hard place here. When I started my impulsive little rant, I think I had forgotten to what an extent consoles had taken our leverage away.

Meh. I don't buy it. Consoles are trash, and the games for them are similarly trash. It's not about leverage, it's about clearing the stench of the decomposing corpse of the corporate behemoth.

Of course, hopefully we'll still have strategy games on PC at least, but gone are the days of things like the text-adventure that ensures the PC an undeniable place as a platform.

You say gone, I say they are just smothered beneath the stench of the corporate conglomerates, and merely await its removal to make a return to the free skies.

Perhaps the politicking should take another form then; that of encouraging gamers to support the industry that they draw pleasure from, with their wallets. On the other hand, I wish the publishers will likewise compromise and acknowledge that there will always be a base market for piracy; - those that for some reason or another, simply cannot afford the games, or who are blocked due to geographical locality.

The "base" market for piracy is, however, not necessarily intrinsically harmful. The "base" market of piracy are those who would always pirate, simply because they can. As such, they were never customers and eliminating them does nothing: If you have a selling market of 100K copies and 900K base pirates, you have a million users. If you eliminate the pirates, you will gain no more sales but lose 900K users Clearly, there is no profit in eliminating pirates, and the attempt may actually end up reducing your sales: The "base" pirate still represents a source of positive advertising: They recommend the game, but their motivations for pirating the game are unattractive at best and do not inspire emulation, nor do they typically encourage the emulation of their behavior. The base pirate is, at best, indifferent as to how YOU conduct yourself. The politically motivated pirate, on the other hand, wants to convert YOU to being a pirate, because he wants to hurt the company.

I think there is another genre of pirate that has arisen lately, not the "I steal because I am hungry, and have no money for food kind"; not even the politically aroused angry kind that I started the thread off as; but those that pirate because of the culture of easy entitlement that the internet has bred. These are the : "I take because I can" pirates.

Nah, this is just base piracy. Base piracy has existed since the earliest days of copyrighted work, and runs back over a hundred of years. The phenomenon isn't new, and its growth is purely due to failure to properly leverage the new medium. It is not even entirely clear that this is really harmful, as the growth of the userbase depends in part on the size of the userbase, and base pirates don't buy your stuff merely because they can't pirate it. There are basically 3 kinds of pirates: Base, Disenfranchised, and Political. The base pirate will always pirate. The disenfranchised pirate because they simply cannot buy the item, and making it available or affordable will convert them. Neither of these two really hurt a company, it is only the political that do it, because the activities of the political tend to increase "base" piracy (users often don't know HOW, and once they learn HOW to be pirates, they will become base pirates) as well as political piracy. I have witnessed this behavior firsthand: On a forum I've run for 3.5 years, there has always been an element of "base" piracy, but this never really expanded or exploded into the open (it was simply understood that such matters were not really talked about in detail, as base pirates have no particular reason to encourage emulation), until the entire EA DRM thing, at which point many users became political, and this has resulted in more pirates being created out of what were formerly paying customers. It's a fact that this happens. The EXTENT may be unknown, but it DOES happen, and like the saying goes, "once you start down the path of the Dark Side, forever will it dominate your destiny": Once a user becomes a pirate, they tend not to turn back.

Sure, you take what you can and get away with it, but someone spent a lot of time and effort and hard work creating the product that you are not compensating them for. Devs and producers also need to eat and pay bills. They are not magically sustained by the fact that thousands of people enjoy the products they created.

By and large, most people, even pirates, are sympathetic to the needs of developers. Publishers, on the other hand, are greeted with somewhat less sympathy, often ranging to outright hostility. While many claim they would be happy to support the developers, and there is evidence that this is true, a goodly number view publishers as a blight on the system, and the fact that they suck up MOST of any money paid into the sales system tends to cast a damper on the entire "buying things to support them" idea.

The other worrying scenario fits in with that one. I suppose it is understandable that if the industry eventually receives no more income from PC game sales, it simply will not be viable for them to continue.

On the other hand, is the death of commercialized gaming really a bad thing? The PC has always hosted a core of those who produce games as art. Arguably these games are actually better and more innovative, if not as glitzy with high production values. Will it really be a loss if commercialized gaming is put to death?

I suspect their piracy nightmare will follow them, though. I know many, many people who have "chipped" consoles, and who make use of pirated console games.
It amazes me that the industry has not caught on to the fact that piracy is rife amongst console gamers too.
I suspect they will have to start using better anti-piracy technology on console machines and games, which will push up the price of these items, perhaps giving the PC a foot in the door again...

And history will repeat itself. Like I said, the industry is frequently badly out of touch: Piracy has always existed. People pirated things before electronic media even existed. And they will continue to pirate things no matter what you do: The 'base' piracy cannot be eliminated, it always exists and effectively serves as a measure of success in and of itself: Things are pirated because they are popular. Things which suck need no DRM.