American Hare

[beige_carpet]

Your project is very intriguing, and I am interested in helping with the programming. Unfortunatly, I would not be able to help until late July since I am finishing up my master's degree in computer science. I have about 10 years experience programming in various languages(C/C++, Java, Python, Perl). If you plan on keeping things text/static image based, I should be able to develop something pretty quickly once I get started and the requirements are ironed out. So, if you are still looking for a programmer and still working on the project in late July contact me, and I will see what I can do for you.

If you want programming samples I will see what I can provide.

 

[Castanova]

What's the deal with the 50% chance that you mentioned in your spoiler? I urge you to reconsider having non-deterministic aspects strongly influencing the events of the game. I would feel less inclined to play the game more than once if I knew I may be forced, despite my efforts, to see the same events twice.

 

[DraQ]

If everyone would avoid playing the path, then what's the point of it being in there?

That way lies Bethesda.

 

[Chefe]

Your project is very intriguing, and I am interested in helping with the programming. Unfortunatly, I would not be able to help until late July since I am finishing up my master's degree in computer science. I have about 10 years experience programming in various languages(C/C++, Java, Python, Perl). If you plan on keeping things text/static image based, I should be able to develop something pretty quickly once I get started and the requirements are ironed out. So, if you are still looking for a programmer and still working on the project in late July contact me, and I will see what I can do for you.

If you want programming samples I will see what I can provide.

That's all well and good, but I hope you will understand if I have reservations about incorporating some anonymous person who just joined the forum onto the project. I'm not saying that this is some holy grail of RPG ideas, but I would not like to get burned by you leaving the project early and demanding all your code back, or being accused of plagiarizing code from other developers. You know how the internet is.

What's the deal with the 50% chance that you mentioned in your spoiler? I urge you to reconsider having non-deterministic aspects strongly influencing the events of the game. I would feel less inclined to play the game more than once if I knew I may be forced, despite my efforts, to see the same events twice.

If you choose to leave him there, the computer flips a coin that either lands on Life or Death. If he dies, then nothing happens. If he lives, he returns near the end of the game for a revenge shodown. However, just because he lives doesn't mean the same thing is going to happen every time. Like everything else, your actions influence what happens. You could kill him, he could kill you, you could leave him for dead again, he could leave you for dead.

Note that if you let the girl live as well as Juan Carlos, and the coin lands on Death, then one more coin is flipped that overwrites the previous results. This is to simulate him gaining the strength to stay alive so he can help the girl get out. Of course, if it lands on Death again, he's gone. Alot of things in the game are like this, and it helps add to the NPCs really being Non-Playable Characters, especially the "main" ones. Also note that there will be no coin flipping in regards to your character living or dying. With only one life available in the game, there will not be any cheap deaths.

If everyone would avoid playing the path, then what's the point of it being in there?

That way lies Bethesda.

Not exactly. They take out features that people do enjoy using.

 

[JarlFrank]

If everyone would avoid playing the path, then what's the point of it being in there? This is the kind of back and forth I'm having with myself.

That's why I said "normally", since I usually find any type of "evil' path in rpg's just plain stupid. Such as (asking for money = EvIl!@!) ala Kotor. But in your example, it seems fleshed out and dare I say... realistic? So I actually would play that path if you incorporated it, though I may not go as far as hurting the girl, since I usually take my role playing choices very seriously , but knowing that I can, and also living with the in-game consequences of keeping her alive, and possibly getting burnt for it down the line, sounds very interesting.

I mean, I would never go so far as to explain in precise detail what you would do to the girl, but just the concept alone gets my blood boiling. But still, it would be a first for RPGs - the first real evil path. Is that something that needs to be done?

Yeah the concept alone already hits hard, so any nitty gritty details just seems like overkill. I think that it's reasonable, but I can still see people overreacting over such an option, but I've read some books with pretty screwed up concepts and no one screamed foul on that, so a text based game shouldn't be considered any different, especially since you have a choice in the matter, not like the book.

I wouldn't say it needs to be done, but it would be a refreshing change. I approve. :twisted:

Gotta agree with Kos_Koa here. The fact that such an absolutely evil bastard path exists is awesome and makes the good path more significant. And it's surly interesting to play this evil path. I bet half of the Codex will play it, just to see what happens.

 

[DraQ]

If everyone would avoid playing the path, then what's the point of it being in there?

That way lies Bethesda.

Not exactly. They take out features that people do enjoy using.

Not really, they axed features that required some effort to use (spears), had unobvious advantages (crossbows) or were badly balanced because of devs' ineptitude and therefore unpopular (medium armour).

 

[Castanova]

Fair enough. What are you doing with regards to saving/loading. Roguelike style or are you allowing people to reload easily?

 

[Chefe]

If everyone would avoid playing the path, then what's the point of it being in there?

That way lies Bethesda.

Not exactly. They take out features that people do enjoy using.

Not really, they axed features that required some effort to use (spears), had unobvious advantages (crossbows) or were badly balanced because of devs' ineptitude and therefore unpopular (medium armour).

Yes... they took out features people enjoyed using.

Fair enough. What are you doing with regards to saving/loading. Roguelike style or are you allowing people to reload easily?

It will autosave after every three dialog choices.

Here's how you load up a saved game:

 

[DraQ]

Yes... they took out features people enjoyed using.

More or less, but the people who enjoyed them seemed minority.

 

[Castanova]

Sweet, I extracted the very first screenshot.

 

[Kos_Koa]

I have begun using Dia to plot out the dialog.

Just out of curiosity, what do you use this program for? It sounds like you're using it for organizing branching dialog paths. Mind telling me how that works?

 

[Longshanks]

I assume he's using it to draw some kind of a flow/decision chart.

 

[Chefe]

That's pretty much it. It makes things a helluva lot easier.

Here's an example from the very beginning. G, B, C respond to the point types.

It's no Visio, but it doesn't cost $600 to use.

 

[Chefe]

What do you guys think I should do?

I don't have the resources to program such a beast, so should I cut things down and put the more advanced ideas in the vault? Or should I just go on and change the release date to "sometime in the next decade"?

 

[JarlFrank]

Try getting other people to join the project if you want. You do the designing and writing, they do the dirty work.

Or just do it as a text-RPG like you originally envisioned, the examples sound pretty awesome in their current form, no need for fancy graphical representation or anything.

And when you think something's missing, you can always make a remake.

 

[Castanova]

What are you anticipating will take so long to program? It doesn't sound like there are any crazy mechanics going on so why don't you just use one of those canned text adventure builders?

 

[crakkie]

On that note, here's a pretty basic RPG in Inform7:

http://www.inform-fiction.org/I7Downloa ... ples/rota/

This could obviously have been much more complex, but it's just a demo of the interpreter.

The main problem with IF interpreters is that they want text commands (e.g., SHOOT CHILD IN KNEE) for interaction, while your game is all about conversation/action trees, conditionally displaying options and selecting a response. You might be able to create some kind of conversation tree interface like that in TADS, which is much more powerful than Inform (it's also a lot more like OO programming).

http://www.tads.org/

 

[Chefe]

Or just do it as a text-RPG like you originally envisioned, the examples sound pretty awesome in their current form, no need for fancy graphical representation or anything.

And when you think something's missing, you can always make a remake.

It's always been a text RPG, just the degree of complexity has changed. Graphics have nothing to do with it. What I am talking about, is I'll have to put most of the best stuff in the closet for this first release. I'd really have to tone things down. The number of locations would be drastically reduced, the number of skills would be reduced, the number of career paths would be practically butchered, the story would be shrunk, the number of "main" NPCs would be sized down, graphics are out, music is out, and the dialog class system will have a chunk ripped right out.

What are you anticipating will take so long to program? It doesn't sound like there are any crazy mechanics going on so why don't you just use one of those canned text adventure builders?

- Heavily script sverything
- An extensive and emergent dialog system
- A huge variety of interactions between skills
- Dozens of unique locations along with a world map
- A handful of unique NPCs that act like other players
- World mode (travelling around) and the main dialog mode
- Bloom

While those text adventure builders are good for building text adventures, they are not good for building an RPG that relies heavily on skill checks.

----
Edit: Well, I caved in and bought a programming book. Maybe I'll get somewhere good with this.

 

[Chefe]

Well, after having a huge party that turned into an orgy with twenty five local models... Ha, Ha... I sat down and re-designed American Hare.

I'm happy to say it is now manageable, although that comes with a cost. It is more RPG-like now as opposed to the choose your own adventure style it carried previously. The entire backstory is written in a neat timeline, so the answer is yes unlike the writers of Lost I do know where I'm going with this.

The main question here is, would this be something you could imagine playing and enjoying?

Name system
Your name is dynamic, and you can pick up new names during your travels based on what people call you. It goes with the whole amnesia thing.

Skill system
You choose either level 1, level 2, or no level in each of the three skills before you start. You have four points to spread around. Since there are so few skill levels, and since you cannot gain points, each level is extremely significant.

- Mind affects overall intelligence. No level and you're an idiot.
- Body affects strength and agility. No level and you're a weakling.
- Focus affects overall skillfulness and ability with technology. No level and you miss out on a lot of varied options.

Dialog class system
The game changes based on how you respond to the world. The overarching paths are still good, bad, and crazy. You've seen the examples before and this hasn't changed much. You can find your good self becoming a dealer of justice through death. The main thing is, don't play like you play other RPGs.

Job system
This is probably the biggest change. Each job or career provides connections and a way to travel around the world. While loosely tied to the core story, they are more similar to traditional RPG jobs than completely seperate paths. This gives way to a central main story. The jobs are migrant farming, missionary work, and circus performing.

Locations
The amount of cities and countries has been revised a bit. You can visit Mexico, Guatemala, Honduras, Belize, El Salvador, Nicaragua, Costa Rica, Panama, Jamaica, and Arizona. Most of Central America is open to you now, even though some countries have more visitable locations than others.

Recruitable characters
You could say they are a replacement to the old job system. Althought not as significant, they do alter the story line. The three recruitable characters are Rafael, Juan Carlos, and Yvonne. It's hard to describe them without describing the story, which I'll briefly say involves you trying to discover your origins and a Mayan evolutionary secret. Rafael gives you a more social experience with the world, Juan Carlos is interested in the Mayan discoveries, and Yvonne is tied to the seedy and impoverished side of the world.

The real NPC
Games don't really have true non-playable characters. Sure there are characters, but nothing on a level that can compare with the PC. In light of this, I give you Tex. He's mostly independent from the main story even though he can alter, significantly in a few places, it if you get involved with him. Your actions will drastically shape his personality, but he will make descisions on his own off-screen.

Dialog and Actions
I haven't decided on which format I should use - the Mass Effect choice style I have been using in the examples, or a more traditional approach. Here's the two compared in the same scenario, and I'll let you guys decide. Keep in mind that this is not actual text from the game, but something I threw together as a rough example.

The old priest looks down at you. His face is calm, collected. No muscle seems to be moving.

Priest: "It is unfortunate that so many try to escape the core principles of our teachings and continue to modernize themselves. You know God looks down upon these actions."

- "Tell me, what do you think we should do?"
- "That's why I come to you proposing a new plan, señor."
- "Father, you know it is blasphemy to assume what God is thinking."
- "We can attempt to change the situation, but we must still show respect to those who think differently."

You stand up and stare in the old man's eyes.

You: "Father, you know it is blasphemy to assume what God is thinking. How can we possibly know his intentions? We should not be quick to judge here. It could very well be intended as another test against the strength of our faith."

Priest: "It is unfortunate that so many try to escape the core principles of our teachings and continue to modernize themselves. You know God looks down upon these actions."

- Ask him what should be done
- State your plan
- Scold him for being impetuous
- Try to reason with him

You stand up and stare in the old man's eyes.

You: "Father, you know it is blasphemy to assume what God is thinking. How can we possibly know his intentions? We should not be quick to judge here. It could very well be intended as another test against the strength of our faith."

 

[callehe]

Why not have a mix of both styles:

[Scold him for being impetuous] "Father, you know it is blasphemy to assume what God is thinking."

This way, the player knows what he is going to say and what the purpose of the sentence uttered is.

 

[JarlFrank]

Why not have a mix of both styles:

[Scold him for being impetuous] "Father, you know it is blasphemy to assume what God is thinking."

This way, the player knows what he is going to say and what the purpose of the sentence uttered is.

Seconded.

 

[Chefe]

Wouldn't that make things a little too cluttered?

- [Ask him what should be done] "Tell me, what do you think we should do?"
- [State your plan] "That's why I come to you proposing a new plan, señor."
- [Sold him for being impetuous] "Father, you know it is blasphemy to assume what God is thinking."
- [Try to reason with him] "We can attempt to change the situation, but we must still show respect to those who think differently."

Maybe it's just me, but seeing that makes me roll my eyes and glaze over the text.

 

[Fez]

I'd say that would only be useful in the context where it would otherwise be confusing or ambiguous to the player. An example would be in PS:T where the text would have "[Lie] Yes" and "[Truth] Yes" as two options in the same list of responses.

 

[Chefe]

I don't plan on lying or telling the truth to be something that you decide before the action is taken. In your example, the only option would be yes, and then when you go to complete the task, you'll decide whether it was a lie or not. Otherwise it's just stupid: "Oh man, I really want to do this, but I already gave the yes lie to the guy so I can't turn that yes into the truth. Rats."

Which part were you talking about would only be useful in certain context? The comment in brackets or the actual sentence?

What does everyone think about the rest of the design changes?

 

[Fez]

The comments in brackets, of course. It was just an example from another game to illustrate the point that sometimes it can be useful to have an explanation. Don't be so literal-minded.

In the PS:T example the choice of lie or truth is as important for that response as the words the character speaks.

There could be other examples, such as how someone says something. Tone of voice, expression and so on. Much like a book would describe the characters.