The Codex's existence is predicated on this not being true, which objectively, it isn't. I hope you won this argument handily.(My colleagues claimed modern games do everything old games did, only better)
I seriously doubt that there is any game that can beat U5 overland travel. I mean recent examples like W2, Fallout and JRPGs are really quite simplistic. Decide where you have to go, and head in that direction. The only one with any resource management was W2 in form of water management and it quickly became quite pointless since in that game water was fucking everywhere. Made my wonder why Highpool was such a big deal if there wasteland was littered with oases. So why was U5 overland travel so great for me
-There was no world map/automat, you had to learn how to navigate using the physical (or digital) map or sextant. It meant that unlike later game you couldn't just use lawnmower approach and just uncover the whole map
-Resource management was more difficult since you had to make sure that you have enough food, cure poison spells and missiles.
-The terrain actually mattered. Monsters could chase you easier on hills, mountains and forests obstructed your view, which made finding specific locations pretty hard unless you knew where they were
-Day-night cycle added some strategic depth to the exploration. Are you going to camp at night risking a potentially tedious battle with critters or are you gong to keep travelling (possibly using few torches) and risk more battles that you can avoid or run away from easily
-You actually had to get your travelling means. Buying a boat to steal a ship from pirates was very satisfying and so was getting to know where the climbing gear is. In U4 sextant also played this role, but was almost useless in U5 since barely anyone told you coordinates of anything. JRPGs totally screwed it up since in most of them means of travel are got through story missions in a pretty lineal way. Which means they are just another means to get to another location dictated by lineal plot and don't actually feel like means of travel.
Well, my colleagues admitted that the new games don't do everything old games did, but they claimed they could do it, if they wanted. My point was that some mechanics are impossible (or don't really work well) with realistic graphics and require more abstract graphics, i.e. the abstract graphics of Ultima V are a requirement for the overland travel to work in the way it does. That is what I want to investigate further.The Codex's existence is predicated on this not being true, which objectively, it isn't. I hope you won this argument handily.(My colleagues claimed modern games do everything old games did, only better)
My point was that some mechanics are impossible (or don't really work well) with realistic graphics and require more abstract graphics, i.e. the abstract graphics of Ultima V are a requirement for the overland travel to work in the way it does. That is what I want to investigate further.
Magic Candle games (plus Bloodstone) certainly come close, especially the later ones. Highlights include weather conditions; having to dress for the weather/terrain; skills, spells and items that help with travelling and a variety of camping options.Hmm, Ultima V and Realms of Arkania are the reference points for me, and I guess part of the reason for this thread is trying to find out if there are other games that do overland travel as good as those. I almost fear that's not the case.
If this is your claim, then why focus on overland travel? Why not bring up a game such as Dwarf Fortress and explain how its mechanics can never be represented with realistic graphics by any game today?Well, my colleagues admitted that the new games don't do everything old games did, but they claimed they could do it, if they wanted. My point was that some mechanics are impossible (or don't really work well) with realistic graphics and require more abstract graphics, i.e. the abstract graphics of Ultima V are a requirement for the overland travel to work in the way it does. That is what I want to investigate further.
but they claimed they could do it, if they wanted.
I don't do this because I want to prove something, I do this because overland travel is a favourite game mechanic of mine (if done right), and I want to know more about it. That discussion was just something that triggered it.If this is your claim, then why focus on overland travel? Why not bring up a game such as Dwarf Fortress and explain how its mechanics can never be represented with realistic graphics by any game today?Well, my colleagues admitted that the new games don't do everything old games did, but they claimed they could do it, if they wanted. My point was that some mechanics are impossible (or don't really work well) with realistic graphics and require more abstract graphics, i.e. the abstract graphics of Ultima V are a requirement for the overland travel to work in the way it does. That is what I want to investigate further.
I don't agree overland travel can't work without higher abstraction, but then again I think fast travel techniques via mark/recall (like in Ultima Online) and some other forms, like waygates, are viable routes. Whether you choose to have an overland system or to just travel via instant teleports (or fast methods of travel), both are going to condense the world, since the original is too big. Of course, I'm the kind of gamer which loves to explore places, even if it means wandering around. However, I still very much want a means to fast travel, and especially like the mark/recall method, as the player gets to determine where it happens and has to organize the runes or put them in books. I also have in the past enjoyed SOME micromanagement, but not too much.........
As I said I'm talking about overland travel that is displayed on another scale than the rest of the game. It is a good thing (IMO), because it is an abstraction that allows the illusion of exploring an entire country or continent. Without this abstraction, you'd either have an unplayable game where it takes real-time hours or days to walk from town to town, or you have a shrinking of the world to a condensed version. The difference can be seen between Ultima V and VI. The latter did away with the two-scale model, Thus shrinking Britannnia from a continent to an island.
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Someoen alreayd mentioend Darklands, but I don't recall how invovled its overland travel is. Is there resource management? Do you have to heed the terrain? CAn you see monsters on the map? Is there day and night? Can you ever get sick? Etc.
Yep. It's underrated on the codex, asi is the whole expansion,Storm of Zehir's overland map is numero uno.
1) It's 3d, but in a fixed perspective (for isometric lovers)
2) a large array of skills work on the overland (spot, listen, search, survival, hide, spellcraft etc)
3) terrain affects travelling speed, as do racial, feat and skill modifiers of the character (some feats are tailored to terrain type, and implemented)
4) It tells you the exact time of day, with day/night cycles and variable weather
5) hostile/neutral and special encounters, random aggro
6) dialogue in overland mode with full functionality (social skill checks etc) and ability to parley/bribe
7) item use in dialogue of random encounters (entangle the enemy and run etc)
8) can optionally join battles to help out allies, and later your own soldiers and caravans (in Soz you create your own merchant empire, and watch it grow on the overland.)
9) full trade interface on the overland, buy and sell resources at towns without entering them
10) right-click on anything to find out more info (description window)
11) height maps, impassable terrain (streams, cliffs), bottlenecks
12) world map overlay
13) can loot detected treasures and resources without entering an area
14) you can rest with risk of ambush (no need to enter an area)
15) solid feeling of exploration and discovery
16) fully moddable - change it how you like, mods have implemented naval exploration, you buy ships, your own fleet, and sail around islands and shit fighting pirates..
My point was that some mechanics are impossible (or don't really work well) with realistic graphics and require more abstract graphics, i.e. the abstract graphics of Ultima V are a requirement for the overland travel to work in the way it does. That is what I want to investigate further.
I think that's certainly true for some mechanics, like e.g. combat. Overland travel is always an abstraction though and thus isn't as reliant on presentation, I think.
I guess Bethesda could have done Skyrim with overland travel, keeping both the normal 3D graphics and the map as they are. But the focus (or buzzword) is seamless open worlds, at the cost of making those worlds cramped and unrealistically small.
I think that if you want to maximise realism and plausibility, while keeping the game fun and preventing boredom, overland travel maps are still the best approach, but sadly they are quite out of fashion.