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Prosper Adventure gaming your role playing games.

Nutmeg

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Infinitron

I agree that liking adventure games is not a necessary condition to avoid power gaming. The point of an empirical exercise such as this is to get at statistical likelihoods, not logical truths.

So, anyway, what are your answers to the questions in the OP?
 

Zombra

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Anyway, could you further explain your thoughts regarding "developer intent"? If I'm understanding you correctly, you seem to think that enjoyment is maximized if a player plays according to developer intent. Why is this? Is it a meta-challenge where you try and piece together this intent?

I'm having trouble understanding.
Well - developer intent isn't some mystic puzzle or metagame that the player needs to wrack their brain to decipher. I believe it is generally going to be evident to any player with basic common sense. No insult intended.

Let me illustrate with an example. I was talking to an online friend about Skyrim. He was highly enthused and enjoying himself. He was particularly pleased when he entered the very first building with an ally NPC and discovered that by "backstabbing" that friendly NPC (who could not be harmed by the player character), he could raise his character's Sneak skill with no risk, challenge, or conflict. He just sat there hammering M1 until his character's Sneak skill was astronomical, then moved on to the rest of the game (and presumably the next exploit). Now, the game was designed that way and he was completely playing "by the rules", but ... the developers clearly didn't intend this behavior, and I feel that any reasonable person would agree that you're not "supposed to" play that way. I found it patently ridiculous that a player would actually and intentionally go against the spirit of the game like that, yet many players seem to find using exploits more fun than playing in a sensible way.

I essentially feel the same way about powergaming ... developers generally intend, I believe, for players to create characters and parties of a certain power level, and experience game content with a certain level of challenge, and to me the experience of meeting that level of challenge is the most rewarding. For a player to look up an online walkthrough and immediately run past the first 10 dungeons and dig a hole in the right spot to "find" the Sword of +10 Nuclear Destruction, and then go on to blow through the game with no challenge whatsoever, is "doing it wrong" in a simliar way to my friend the Skyrim backstabber. If you have fun playing that way, fine and more power to you, but ... that's not how you're supposed to do it. You're having fun by breaking the game, not really playing it. One zebra's opinion.
 
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madrigal

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Yes I do enjoy adventure games. My favourite series is Gabriel Knight series, really enjoyed Grim Fandango and a lot of sierra games, Dagger of Amon Ra, Quest for Glory.

Depends on the RPG a lot how I will approach it, but I like experimenting with character builds, I like testing the limits and powergaming by finding optimum builds, I don't like time limits, with might and magic I always took my time and didn't care at all about the score.
 

Nutmeg

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Zombra,

Neat.

Do you think randomly generating a map each playthrough solves the walkthrough problem?

Also, how would you feel about a game that:
  • features some kind of player controlled agent or agents,
  • intelligently generates ordeals and harships for those agents (puzzles, encounters, social interactions), and
  • rewards your agents in such a way that (something similar to) the previous (but not the next!) hardship would allow for more tactical errors on your part?
 

Zombra

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Do you think randomly generating a map each playthrough solves the walkthrough problem?
The specific problem I mentioned, yes. However I think in this case the cure is worse than the disease.

Also, how would you feel about a game that:

* features some kind of player controlled agent or agents,
* intelligently generates ordeals and harships for those agents (puzzles, encounters, social interactions), and
* rewards your agents in such a way that (something similar to) the previous (but not the next!) hardship would allow for more tactical errors on your part?
Procedural generation is a cool idea in theory, but I have yet to see a procedural RPG that doesn't feel somewhat "soulless" and quickly become boring. I am never excited when I see a procedural RPG announced.
 
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Xathrodox86

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Well made adventure games are always a treat for me. Monkey Island, Quest for Glory and even the new Sherlock Holmes titles: I had tons of fun playing those. I also like darker titles like Still Life.
 
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Hi everybody,

I think a reasonable hypothesis is that enjoyment of adventure games affects how role playing games are played.

So, firstly, do you enjoy adventure games? Additionally, which adventure gaming series do you most enjoy?
I've enjoyed some. When I was growing up I played consoles exclusively. All I can remember from that time which was advenure-ish was Zelda and Castelvania, both of which I never forgot because of how they made me feel like I was in another world. Adventures of Maddog Wiliams and Hugo's House of Horror's and Myst and Privateer and Under A Killing Moon (starring Tex Murphy) were PC games I enjoyed early on. I tried playing Tomb Raider, but other than her boobs, it was hard to stay interested. I did like the jumping and running stuff and escaping from the T-Rex and some shooting bits, but outside some action the world just felt so boring. I've also enjoyed more recent adventure-ish games like X: Beyond The Frontier and X2: The Threat.

Secondly, how do you prefer to play role playing games? Specifically, do you enjoy speed running and power gaming?
I hate speed running. I've power gamed only insofar as trying to play effectively, but I refrain from using walkthroughs or cheats. For me the joy of the game is learning how it works, exploring and building up my cache of loot.

For example I do not enjoy adventure games and, with few exceptions, the only enjoyment I get from role playing games is optimizing my party build strategy, combat tactics, and order of travel, so that I complete the game (usually in a completionist sense) in the lowest amount of in-game time possible. Hence, for me, "Might and magic 6" represents a very high point in role playing game design
What separates roleplaying games from adventure games, at least for me, are:
1) Much deeper world and non-player characters
2) Can interact with the world and characters to change what happens (in the story too)

I don't think RPGs necessarily need overt skills/stats, but they do need a deep mechanics system. For example, no piercing/slashing/etc skills are needed, but having piercing/slashing/blunt/magic ATTACKS in combat adds some variety, as well as things like stunning and slipping and jumping and pushing and other effects or actions. The important thing is combat isn't just a button mashing affair, but requires some thought. Everything else in the game should be that way too. Being able to set traps or to poison an enemy or to pick a lock or to persuade a person to talk to you or to do any number of other things are all mechanics which add to the character<->world interaction. RPGs to me wouldn't be RPGs without these sort of deep systems.

It's the distinction between playing a role and playing a character which separates me from the crowd. The standard convention in RPGs is we're playing our character, not ourselves. Therefore, if my character is bad at fishing then I will suck at fishing until I can get their skill higher. I can't just pickup a fishing pole and, assuming I know how, be a master. And yet that's what I'd like to do. If I know how to do it then I should be a master. I don't want to be constrained by a stat my character has. I think I'm ok with being constrained by money or faction or friends, but character skills/stats seem too artificial.

Maybe the reason I feel this way is because it comes with an unstated expectation: Even if I can do anything in the game as long as I know how to do it and have the means, I still don't want it to be easy. I still want it to be hard.
 
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Self-Ejected

IncendiaryDevice

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Why Adventure Games usually fail and why timed puzzles usually fail and why "cheats" make you facepalm:



With additional apologies for the game used as an example, I got it in a buy 3 for $15 dollars and I couldn't find anything to buy for the 3rd title, no need to give excuses, but that's what happened, so just context story-telling, and watched this supposed "walkthrough" as a means to actually play the game - there appeared to be no logical way to solve virtually anything in the game.
 

DraQ

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Personally I'm not a fan of adventures, maybe not as whole but too often they boil down to guessing single "correct" solution and generally become single shot collections of more or less (il)logical puzzles.
Then again, cRPGs also tend to boil down to masturbation by incrementation.

I think the adventure I liked the most so far was AzT, although I haven't played quite a few important ones (like Bladerunner).


In fact, comparisons have been made between adventure games and RPGs with "grognardy" systems. RPGs with stats and skills that you MUST have in order to win, or with lots of save-and-reload-until-you-get-it-right encounters, are kind of like adventure games where you need to find a certain item in order to progress.
Both are shit?
:troll:
 

DraQ

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Why Adventure Games usually fail and why timed puzzles usually fail and why "cheats" make you facepalm:



With additional apologies for the game used as an example, I got it in a buy 3 for $15 dollars and I couldn't find anything to buy for the 3rd title, no need to give excuses, but that's what happened, so just context story-telling, and watched this supposed "walkthrough" as a means to actually play the game - there appeared to be no logical way to solve virtually anything in the game.


Dat pipe puzzle.
:what:
Jesus, how fucking retarded in so many different ways at once.
 

Machocruz

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I like adventure games because I like being stumped then having an "Aha" moment. And the stories and characters are often charming.

I do what I call "optimal role-playing" in an RPG, meaning I take several different builds through one game as quickly as possible, only doing that content which applies to my character concept. Doing it all on one character is for peasants. In fact, the more build variety a game caters too, the better it is. Fallout 1 and 2 are examples of such games, as well as certain roguelikes.
 

Duram

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If the story and visuals are good enough, no i dont need to powergame the game. Although it is a bonus after you have finished all the different endings in different playthroughs(if there's enough different paths to take ofc with dif consequences/reactions/changes/etc), like an additional content/level to to do.

That said the only difference between a good rpg and a adventure game is usually XP and levels. Decent gameplay is a must for any game no matter what genre.
 

felipepepe

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"Well, I think it's been a misnomer over the years to call what we're doing role-playing games. We're actually making the farthest thing from it. There's really not much role-playing going on. What we are doing now is a cross between strategy and adventure games."
- Jon Van Caneghem
 

Dorateen

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"Well, I think it's been a misnomer over the years to call what we're doing role-playing games. We're actually making the farthest thing from it. There's really not much role-playing going on. What we are doing now is a cross between strategy and adventure games."
- Jon Van Caneghem

All the respect in the world to Van Caneghem.

What's fascinating from a historical perspective is that quote can be largely applicable to the modern mainstream RPGs of the last ten years. Especially the "farthest thing" from role-playing part.
 

octavius

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I wonder if JVC would consider a game like Oblivion, where you can "LARP" to your heart's content, role playing?
Seems he's using the broader definition of the word.
 

Deleted member 7219

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I play RPGs for wish fulfillment. Not making friends and making lovers like a BioWhore, but building up power, prestige, skills etc through levelling and in game actions and choices. When done through skills I guess you can call it powergaming, but to me that is one of the best things about an RPG. If you spend hours and hours doing all the sidequests, getting XP for taking alternate paths, you should be able to spend all that experience and reap the benefits.
 
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Lilura

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Gygax was a wargamer. From what I've read, his modules and DM sessions were hack n slash with deadly traps. There seems to be little in the way of role-playing and in-character stuff. And D&D never was a role-playing ruleset, it was always about combat. Not sure what the problem is...
 

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