Prosper Adventure gaming your role playing games.

[Irenaeus]

Gygax was a wargamer. From what I've read, his modules and DM sessions were hack n slash with deadly traps. There seems to be little in the way of role-playing and in-character stuff. And D&D never was a role-playing ruleset, it was always about combat. Not sure what the problem is...

Who said there is any problem?

 

[felipepepe]

I wonder if JVC would consider a game like Oblivion, where you can "LARP" to your heart's content, role playing?
Seems he's using the broader definition of the word.

Not JVC, but here's Garriott:

if you just create a sandbox and say, "You guys make your own stories," it goes back to D&D. There's no context. There's no guidance. There's no showcasing. A good game should constantly lead you over the next hill to see what's on the other side, and it's got to be something of wonder that you and your friends all get to share.

I think most of the first generation devs agree that CRPGs have little to do with P&P RPGs... a few more examples:

“Well, once D&D became more and more popular and you ran out of good storytellers for gamemasters, it devolved, in my mind, into the [talks with a lisp] “Well, I’m standing behind you and I’ve got a +3 sword, and I’ve got a slight advantage because my dexterity is a little higher”, and they do complicated calculations, then once every five minutes, roll die, and say you win. Which I think it not roleplaying.”
- Richard Garriott

“The oddest thing about computer role-playing games today is that you never hear anyone talk about the importance of playing a role. You hear about “400 character classes!” “6,753 unique skills!” “827 errand boy missions!” and “A world so big you won’t want to explore it all!” Give it a rest. This is shallow. It’s silly. It betrays our geeky roots in paper gaming (a medium with only a dangerous, superficial relation to electronic gaming).”

Role-playing isn’t about statistics or exploring randomly generated worlds of crate-filled buildings. It isn’t about random quests and combat encounters every sixteen steps. It isn’t even about +37 Swords of Instant Critical Hits that do Double Damage From Behind! Roleplaying is about giving players the freedom to act as they see fit, within the framework of a story we provide.
– Warren Spector

 

[RK47]

And that's why Spector designed Epic Mickey.

 

[Lilura]

Old men romanticizing the old days and exaggerating the negatives of "new fandangled" games they can't wrap their heads around, nothing new to see there.

The funny thing is... the very concept of CRPG (which they helped to create) was already "the farthest thing from PnP role-playing". If you wanna role-play, go play PnP. Even the loftiest CRPGs (Fallout 1 and Arcanum) have only ever tickled that fancy..

 

[octavius]

But who coined the term Computer Role Playing Game in the first place?
Did Garriot, Woodhead&Greenberg, or JVC use that term for their games?

 

[Jaesun]

I *believe* it was Gygax?

 

[Nutmeg]

All,

I see my thread has been "derailed". I am O.K. with this, although if anyone wants to answer the question in OP feel free to do that too.

felipepepe,

From the provided quotes it would seem that Spector and Garriott are disappointed at the lack of "roleplaying" in computer roleplaying games while John Van Canengham is proud of it. Do you read it this way too?

 

[felipepepe]

I think no one is. In my reading, JVC think it's impossible to do "real" role-playing with a computer, while Garriott & Spector think that it's possible but most game designers suck.

Is interesting that both Garriott & Spector use Thief as example of a game with actual role-playing.

 

[Jaesun]

Is interesting that both Garriott & Spector use Thief as example of a game with actual role-playing.

 

[felipepepe]

Diablo, great game. Loved it. For me, I use the term "RPG" for it because it is a stats game. It's a "Do I have the best armor equipment compared to the creature I'm facing?" There's not really any story for it. It's a great challenge reward cycle game. Blizzard, by the way, does the best challenge reward cycle games I've seen.

On the other hand, Thief or Ultima are role-playing games versus RPG -- which I know stands for role-playing game. When I think of a role-playing game, it is now where you are charged with playing an actual role and qualitative aspects of how you play are every bit as important as what equipment you use. That's what I find most interesting. It's a lot easier to do stories there.

-sauce