Admit it: You are going to buy Elder Scrolls 5: Skyrim.

[King Crispy]

You all shut the fuck up.

CorpseZeb knows what he's talking about here, and you should be agreeing with him for he is clearly and correctly delineating what makes the sandboxey, open-ended experience which is (or was) Bethesda's forte, and separating it from what makes a proper RPG .

OP asks whether you're going to buy Skyrim. He answers yes, states why based on the above, and you shit on him. AFAIK, this is not a nomask alt, so cut it out.

I'm with you, Zeb.

*puts arm around his new buddy Zeb, stares defiantly at Codex*

 

[Raghar]

You can't mod in stats, they would need to be hardwired in the game.

I recall three musicians who were inviting certain girl for a dinner... They called her friend... She was supposed to be the main course, or a snack.

 

[Kraszu]

Open ended games where there are no consequences to your actions, and where the world is static, are dull. What experience? The experience of doing whatever because it doesn't change anything, and hiking in virtual world with only gameplay element being combat that sucks? What is the pleasure that you get from a game like that?

 

[DraQ]

And Oblivion, yes... its not a game, not a rpg game – that for sure - its more just a shell (a skull, a bucket, a codpiece... oh... sorry...) to self-contain with self-pleasure

wat

Is that how aspies say "Action RPG"?

No, that's how aspies say "play pretend", except I don't really see point in using a game for that if it doesn't actively support your "play pretend".

Open ended games where there are no consequences to your actions, and where the world is static, are dull. What experience? The experience of doing whatever because it doesn't change anything, and hiking in virtual world with only gameplay element being combat that sucks? What is the pleasure that you get from a game like that?

Playing dress-up?

 

[CorpseZeb]

Cripsy – thanks! *hug* *hug*

Clockwork Knight – well... you're quite right... by “definition” (action=no turn based). I just say “action” in Oblivion is very bland, dull, slow, pointless (by level scaling) – its not like, say, Diablo or Divinity – so “no action” really.

Kraszu – well – you have a choice – C&C or sandbox – freewill or strong story. Because strong story excludes my freewill, my choice of action. Yes, it means sandbox world are often dull because its up to you to fill it, to create own world of meaning. And yes, if story is very good I don't mind if game steal my freewill, but... how many games you now with mind-job-blowing good story?
I wrote once longer piece called “Morrowind vs Neverwinter or nazi vs democracy” just about that problem...

Look at Stalker maybe, first (and last) Stalker games are better example of sandbox world done right, than Oblivion. And Stalker is not even a RPG... But finally, of course, its always down to personal question – what we seek in game? What we want? And I always thought that RPG genre give me fullest set of possible answers. Till today, till games like DA2 or Arcania.

So, back to Skyrim, if Skyrim will be “only” Oblivionsque, that enough for me - better no story than bad story – (DA2, ME). Sad? Yes. True? Too...

 

[sea]

And if, Skyrim will be modable like Oblivion (where you can have non-scaleable world via mod), then maybe...maybe there is some pink colour of naïve hope of pleasure game... after all.

No amount of modding can fix shitty game design. Just FYI.

Depends on what's broken, really. Is it quest design and story, dialogue, etc.? If so, you're going to have a hell of a time trying to fix things (though even Neverwinter Nights went from being crap to pretty good with custom modules). For stuff like bad/broken balance, lack of options in character customisation, lack of options in using character abilities within the world, etc., yeah that can all be addressed. Even Oblivion becomes pretty decent as a sandbox hack-n-slash once you mod the hell out of it to fix the terrible interface, awful AI and boring world (Oscuro's mod, namely). Of course, if you consider "shitty design" to be something along the lines of "it's in 2D/3D/turn-based/real-time" to be bad design, then that's not the game's fault, that's just personal preference, and really not a valid complaint against the execution. Of course, complaints that go fundamentally against those sorts of wide design considerations are legitimate, but then your problem isn't with a particular game, it's probably with an entire genre.

 

[J_J_M]

Toddler admitting console hardware is holding TES series back:

"More speed will allow you to always put more detail and put more people on the screen"

So, they're limiting the amount of NPCs which appear on the screen at once. You won't see any huge battles in Skyrim with lots of NPCs running around.

"So our bigger cities still have walls that load you."

Yep, loading times are back because the consoles lack memory.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=db-o_HrpC-0#t=3m28s

 

[Captain Shrek]

Action rpg = Hackan Slashan + Rpg elements (levels, skills, autism).

Are you telling me Oblivion does not have hackan slashan, CorpeZeb?

I dislike Oblivion too, but its not hack and slash, atleast not hack and slash as we identify them.

 

[MMXI]

I dislike Oblivion too, but its not hack and slash, atleast not hack and slash as we identify them.

It doesn't fucking matter. Oblivion is an action game with shitty statistical character development. It's therefore an action game with RPG elements, thus it's an action RPG. A shitty action RPG but an action RPG none the less.

Hack and slash means fuck all, really. It just implies the use of melee weapons in an action game. If you replace swords with guns in Oblivion you get Fallout 3. If you replace swords with guns in Diablo II you get a top down shooter. Therefore it's a meaningless term when applying it to game genres.

 

[Captain Shrek]

Hack and slash means fuck all, really. It just implies the use of melee weapons in an action game. If you replace swords with guns in Oblivion you get Fallout 3. If you replace swords with guns in Diablo II you get a top down shooter. Therefore it's a meaningless term when applying it to game genres.

Don't be so red. I am not against you. OBLIVION IS SHIT.

Hack and slash though refers to continuous cast/attack/clickfest game with less focus on actual combat mechanics.

Action games have more focus on the combat mechanics like parry, block, jump + attack , crouch + attack, sneak attacks, head shots, focused shots etc: e.g. Dark Messiah, Deus Ex, Daggerfall, Gothic are action RP games.

 

[CorpseZeb]

It doesn't fucking matter. Oblivion is an action game with shitty statistical character development. (cut)

In Linus immortal words - show me your codpiece... show me an “action” in Oblivion. I mean “action” not snail-fuck with sword and mudcrab...

 

[MMXI]

The combat in Oblivion requires a vast amount of time critical player skill. It's an action game. Face facts and suck it up, bitches.

 

[CorpseZeb]

The combat in Oblivion requires a vast amount of time critical player skill. It's an action game. Face facts and suck it up, bitches.

Vast amount of what...?! Skill...?! Skill?! Did you ever played this “action” game called “Oblivion”?! Oblivion and skill is like... dunno... sex and pope or... nun and candle... C'mon...

 

[DraQ]

I mean “action” not snail-fuck with sword and mudcrab...

I can already tell you're going to be an interesting poster (no irony and no homo)*.

Yeah, I can agree - the point isn't that oblivious isn't an action game, the point is that it's not *even* an action game. It's just some inexplicable clusterfuck with both "action" and "aRPeeGee" elements being of just as sorry quality.

Kraszu – well – you have a choice – C&C or sandbox – freewill or strong story. Because strong story excludes my freewill, my choice of action. Yes, it means sandbox world are often dull because its up to you to fill it, to create own world of meaning. And yes, if story is very good I don't mind if game steal my freewill, but... how many games you now with mind-job-blowing good story?

Well, good sandbox seems to be a perfect ground for less scripted, more emergent C&C, but no disagreement on dichotomy between sandbox and story - even though there is nothing preventing putting story elements in a sandbox, you can't do so with intact, non-fragmented story.

Look at Stalker maybe, first (and last) Stalker games are better example of sandbox world done right, than Oblivion.

Which brings us back to the question - why the fuck play this shit? Because it's shit, even if you add mods, the quality of the game seems to approach "almost, but not quite non-turd" as the number of good mods tends to infinity.

Why not STALKERs which are decent shooters in addition to being much better sandboxes?
Why not Morrowind and Daggerfall which are also RPGs and rich worlds in addition to being sandboxes AND dress-up simulators?
Why not Frontier: Elite 2 and Frontier: First Encounters that allow you to fap all over "teh rocket science involved" and juvenile nerdy dreams of flying around the real, not movie universe in a powerful spacecraft with big laser IN ADDITION to being sandboxes?
Why not just continue messing around with your colourful ragtag team of followers in post-endgame Fallout 2 which is one of the best RPGs in addition to being a fucking sandbox?

Whyyyy???


P.S.

*)
I will be disappoint if you turn out to be an alt.

 

[MMXI]

Yeah, I can agree - the point isn't that oblivious isn't an action game, the point is that it's not *even* an action game. It's just some inexplicable clusterfuck with both "action" and "aRPeeGee" elements being of just as sorry quality.

Thanks for translating.

Of course it's a terrible action game. I don't think anyone can dispute that. And that, ultimately, is Oblivion's downfall. If it had a decent action component then it may have been a passable action RPG. If it had stronger RPG elements then it may have been a passable action RPG. But it had none of the two and so was doomed to sub-mediocrity, probably nearer the "worst game ever" mark.

What could a competent developer do to improve upon Oblivion for Skyrim? A whole fuck load. What will Bethesda do to "improve" upon Oblivion for Skyrim? Add prettier faces and remove attributes.

That about sums up this whole discussion as far as I'm concerned.

 

[Sceptic]

Gothic 3 - Community Patch? From non-playable to playable.
Or Vampire Bloodlines?

Ok, that was not about broken design games but just buggy games.

There you go, you've answered your own question. Bugs can be fixed. Flawed implementation with some good ideas can be fixed (see Gothic 3 - great world, broken combat). Oblivion isn't about either though. Oblivion's design problems are extremely fundamental, as proven quite clearly by the fact that even the immense number of mods that have tried to fix the broken design* could not turn in into an enjoyable game.

Why not STALKERs which are decent shooters in addition to being much better sandboxes?
Why not Morrowind and Daggerfall which are also RPGs and rich worlds in addition to being sandboxes AND dress-up simulators?
Why not Frontier: Elite 2 and Frontier: First Encounters that allow you to fap all over "teh rocket science involved" and juvenile nerdy dreams of flying around the real, not movie universe in a powerful spacecraft with big laser IN ADDITION to being sandboxes?

This. A hundred times.

* I'm ONLY counting these mods. Cloud Sword and Master Chief Armor obviously don't count.

 

[Clockwork Knight]

Cripsy – thanks! *hug* *hug*

Aw, fuck MY BACK

Clockwork Knight – well... you're quite right... by “definition” (action=no turn based). I just say “action” in Oblivion is very bland, dull, slow, pointless (by level scaling) – its not like, say, Diablo or Divinity – so “no action” really.

Well, level scaling does ruin the "point" (feeling stronger), but not the action - if anything, the LS that makes enemies become strong with you sort of prevents you from one-hitting everything late game. I decided to do the main quest at levels 16-19 in vanilla (following Drog's suggestion) and it was pretty gnarly.

Since you asked: for that quest where you have to deliver the Rockshatter mace to the thug's widow, I had to leave the dungeon and come back later, as the still-alive thug and his buddies were too strong (the thug had a high-level Rockshatter with Weakness to Shock + high Shock damage, and the elf had a shock claymore). I tried to lead them around the dungeon and lure them into traps / tackle them into a pit, but I mostly managed to get only the orc (who was wearing the shittiest armor among the three, anyway), and sometimes I got the elf too.

There was also this fight against two necromancers, one of them using a paralysis staff. While one attacked, the other backed up to heal. I had to hide behind pillars and lure them into traps to win, and even then I lost a number of times.

And there was this time where I was exploring west of Anvil, looking fgor a Sign Stone. At higher levels, a couple of fights was enough to rip my heavy armor into shreds, so I was more or less naked. Then a lion mountain saw me, and we enacted Benny Hill for a while until I gave up on trying to outrun him, and sneaked by.

The Siege of Kvatch + the first Oblivion Gate were hard / entertaining as hell, because I had to be careful of everything (mostly because what should be an army of scamps at lowere levels was now an army of Fire Golems / Clanfears). It was hard to even get past the castle's outskirts (most of the guards died - turns out watchmen that were patrolling the nearby area come to help if the default guards die, but even the reinforcements died) . Fortunately, the Oblivion Gate had an Absorb Health (weapon) / Increase Health (armor), and I had a spare elven mace with me. Still had to collect a few soulgems to last long enough.

Once inside the castle, the occasional "strong monster" that would've been a Fire Atronach at lower levels was now a Daedroth. Good times. At the end, the captain dude gave me a high-level version of his armor, which was nice enough to keep with me even though it was Light Armor (I needed it too, since all my armor was now ruined - even the replacements I found through the castle).

As terrible it is as an RPG, as an action-rpg I found it can be pretty nice after you get past the early stages - but that's mostly because my least favorite thing in RPGs is how your characters become too strong over the game. Since level scaling can make you WEAKER as you level if you aren't being anal about character building, it can wield interesting results.

 

[DraQ]

Gothic 3 - Community Patch? From non-playable to playable.
Or Vampire Bloodlines?

Ok, that was not about broken design games but just buggy games.

There you go, you've answered your own question. Bugs can be fixed. Flawed implementation with some good ideas can be fixed (see Gothic 3 - great world, broken combat). Oblivion isn't about either though. Oblivion's design problems are extremely fundamental, as proven quite clearly by the fact that even the immense number of mods that have tried to fix the broken design* could not turn in into an enjoyable game.

So we can reasonably conclude that oblivious was misdesigned. Fundamentally.

 

[Kraszu]

Kraszu – well – you have a choice – C&C or sandbox – freewill or strong story. Because strong story excludes my freewill, my choice of action. Yes, it means sandbox world are often dull because its up to you to fill it, to create own world of meaning. And yes, if story is very good I don't mind if game steal my freewill, but... how many games you now with mind-job-blowing good story?

Actually choices lets you use your will. In G3 you can choose who to help, and there are consequences to that. I wish for a game that builds on G3, having open world with a real conflict (with strategic AI deciding on the next move on each side) where your choices influences it. I don't complain about lack of story in the Oblivion sandbox style game, but in how dull and meaningless any of your manipulation of the sand are. I like SR2 allot, and there is hardly any story there.

 

[DraQ]

Kraszu – well – you have a choice – C&C or sandbox – freewill or strong story. Because strong story excludes my freewill, my choice of action. Yes, it means sandbox world are often dull because its up to you to fill it, to create own world of meaning. And yes, if story is very good I don't mind if game steal my freewill, but... how many games you now with mind-job-blowing good story?

Actually choices lets you use your will. In G3 you can choose who to help, and there are consequences to that. I wish for a game that builds on G3, having open world with a real conflict (with strategic AI deciding on the next move on each side) where your choices influences it. I don't complain about lack of story in the Oblivion sandbox style game, but in how dull and meaningless any of your manipulation of the sand are.

A sandbox with no sand, most toys stolen and most of the rest broken.

 

[CorpseZeb]

DraQ you ask very philosophical questions... and my knowledge of English language is somewhat limited. But still... Why we play? What is play? What define a game?

Erh... just check, I spend over 273 hours in Oblivion world. Why? You can ask me where and how deep I have “story” oft game or mechanics or whatever else, and I answer where and how deep...

But, seriously, its personal matter. I like wandering of without end. I like Soule pieces of music. Its gaming still? Dunno. (Yes if I am who define what-is-what). So Maybe is. Maybe not. But at the end of day, Oblivion makes possible that sort of activity, DA2/ME not. And that matters.

I love Stalker series of course – they are last resort of real PC gaming. And I spend many, many hours in Frontier, and F1/F2 (in F3 too, over 300 hours in spite being pure shit – really hate what they done to fallout universe) - so why Oblivion or F3 while there are some other better games? Well, answer is rather obvious I afraid, you can't read non-stop “Peace and War” or “Henry the VII”, sometime “Hot nuns and cold candles” are better...

Is like reading books, who is the Author – author of book or reader who reading and understanding? Nothing prevents me to get a telephone book and read it as hot romantic novel, right...? Clockwork Knight nice story about his Oblivion playthrough illustrated it very well – you can shape world of game to very own needs.

Or I just “overanalyzing the obvious”...

Ps.

Clockwork Knight: OK, I see your point, but how long this works? I mean, by level 30 your character is practically immortal despite LS, not mention if you are at level 50 or higher...

 

[Reptilian Shapeshifter]

A sandbox with no sand, most toys stolen and most of the rest broken.

Oblivious' sandbox is actually filled with kitty litter. You may imagine you're playing with toys, but in reality you're just a shit-eating grinner.

 

[Clockwork Knight]

Clockwork Knight: OK, I see your point, but how long this works? I mean, by level 30 your character is practically immortal despite LS, not mention if you are at level 50 or higher...

I guess there is still a point where your guy becomes a god, since enemies have a level cap. I'm not used to RPGs that diverge from that pattern, so I can live with it. Of course, proper design could take care of that by offering tougher challenges late game, but in the absence of high-tech prosthetics, a peg leg will do.

And depending on your build, it can take a while - I didn't feel like picking skills I wanted to use as Minors becuase I lack the necessary level of autism to properly appreciate a PERFECTO CHARACTORA BUILDO, so I leveled at a reasonable speed with so-so stats. As I said, I did sidequests and dunjan crawlan until I hit 16+, since Drog said that it's by then that the enemies start getting serious. I don't think the quests alone have enough content to level you until 30 or so, therefore I assume that if you keep from dungeon delving farming at higher levels, you shouldn't be reaching the God-point very soon. Of course, the bad side of this is that I had to engage in not-so-rewarding low-level dungeon crawling, but I could do that while I walked around, opening points of interest in the map.

The main quest becomes more interesting when you have proper powers and proper enemies . The three Dremora knights with the draining swords at the First Gate, for example, were an actual threat, since their weapons now took a big chunk off my stats - being an orc, the one with the Strength-absorbing one managed to kill me a few times. The one with the Speed / Agility one scared me because I already had shitty Agi to begin with, so it was a staggerfest. The one with Int/Willpower absorbing one fucked hard with my healing spell, but that's why I buy potions.

And defeating them felt more satisfying, even because now I could have those weapons. One of them anyway, since Dremora weapons are fucking heavy. I also had to roleplay King Leonidas a bit and used the elevators and stairs to kill some enemies.

 

[Sceptic]

So we can reasonably conclude that oblivious was misdesigned. Fundamentally.

Well, obviously

A sandbox with no sand, most toys stolen and most of the rest broken.

This should've been the game's tagline

 

[CorpseZeb]

Clockwork Knight, right sir, your way works because you agree to pay price for LS boundaries (not so much exploring I suppose, going to main quest about appropriate time and so on). Make one step beyond, and world will fall (if you like, you can then build your own, on still warm ashes).

Anyway, for me, LS kills all fighting fun, all elements of challenge, all character management – rendering them useless.

Btw, I start main quest around level 44 only because nothing left me to do...

And, funny thing... You seems to be very serious about playing your role play in Oblivion (totally unlike me) – so I ask you same question DraQ ask me – why not try some “proper” RPG with "proper" statistics and everything...? Ha!