A return to dungeon design - what do you want to see in it?

[J1M]

I don't have to doubt that BO was a good and atmospheric game to see that abstract dungeons with tileset as window dressing have infinitely less potential to dungeons with sense of purpose, layout, encounters, puzzles and all the specific properties tailored to what they are meant to be.

So your contribution is that good dungeons are good and bad dungeons are bad. Great. What insight.

You don't seem to grasp that when designing an entire game things don't appear out of whole cloth. When creating a large amount of content with a multi-person team you need a process that can be followed to ensure consistent results. That process is where the interesting discussion is. Saying that if a perfect dungeon existed then it would be fun to play is pointless.

 

[Murk]

I do not understand why you would make the assumption that BO has bad dungeons that lack purpose, layout, encounter, or whatever else. The game was applauded for the dungeons having a purpose, having clever layout that requires you to use your new skill/ability but done so gradually, and that each dungeon was specifically tailored for its purpose/need.

If you don't feel like trying the game, then get on youtube and watch a let's play video of some of the dungeons.

 

[Murk]

It would seem that many of you are more in favor of single character designs when it comes to dungeoneering, especially in regards to the atmosphere portrayed.

 

[Murk]

I don't mind either way - the Gothic/Risen games are some of my favorites because they forgo party based play in favor of single character interaction... and I like that.

I was mostly thinking party based gameplay while writing in this thread but it is entirely true that they lack the atmosphere that a single character game can provide, and part of the dungeon is in its presentation which atmosphere and point of view are a big impact... Arx Fatalis' crypt level being a great example of this.

 

[DraQ]

I do not understand why you would make the assumption

I do not make any assumption, merely work with what I'm provided with, and I'm provided with a case for schematic dungeons, regardless of whether BO actually has them or not and regardless of whether they work in game's context. It is this case I'm attempting to demolish here.

As for BO, I will be more than willing to play a prequel to Soul Reavers and Defiance, if and when I can be arsed to not remove it from an inventory (because I doubt I will find a way to actually buy it).

 

[Murk]

I'm going to avoid the whole semantics argument of "assumption" and instead just say that's a fine choice, and if you find the pc-version too elusive then get the ps1 version - at least then you'll have the 25+ minutes of cinematic scenes included instead of a move-less rip that the abandonware sites probably have.

 

[Metro]

Not sure I understand the whole 'limit a player's options to steer them to use a certain ability/solution' formula when the general idea should probably be allow for a variety of ways to tackle something. I understand it's meant as a mechanic to prevent repetitive game play but you're better off designing a dungeons with a handful of things like the 'shadow' gimmick rather than have only one gimmick per dungeon. Of course the obvious problem is designing all those options takes time and money.

 

[Murk]

^ I never meant that there should be a built in limitation -- rather that the environment should react to choices you make and close off areas based on means available to access them or simply throw you at a fork where you have to pick a direction to go and that you can't go back to the other one.

 

[Luzur]

i dunno, Daggerfall dungeons abit better compiled?

 

[Topher]

My simple design rule/idea...

Design combat like the player has a full diverse party.

Design everything else like the player is doing a solo run.

 

[Bobtheblob]

Ecology, Personality, Mystery, Options, History. For me, great dungeon shave all these elements.

To define these I'll give the best examples I can think of.

Ecology - The creatures, environments and design make sense and are consistent. Monster closets are a big minus. I think the Ultima Underworld series did a great job here.

Personality - The character of the dungeon. Fallout's 'The Glow' with it's eerie loneliness is about tops here. In fact the only other dunegon' that I can recall being even close to this feeling was the undersea base in Deus Ex. Some of the IWD locations did this well for me - The severed hand of IWD had a distinctly elven character etc...

Mystery - I want my dungeons to have layers of secrets, hidden lore and locations. Arx Fatalis and the Underworlds were great is this area.

Options - I'm always a fan of multiple solutions and multiple routes. And again the Underworlds are hard to beat here. Deus Ex is another excellent example - lots of paths, alternate solutions, non essential locations that are interesting.

History - I want to know that there are who's and whys behind my dungeons. MM3 had a nifty little page of history for all it's dungeons explaining the origins. For dungeons with an exceptional history I again point to the UW's in particular the castle / sewers and Stygian Abyss.

In particular I found ruins of cities and shelters to make for exceptionally interesting dungeons The already mentioned Glow from the original Fallout, the sunken city in Lands of Lore 2 and The Ice Caves of UW2 were some great memorable dungeons for me.

 

[deuxhero]

Persona 4 and Strange Journey had some dungeons that stood out as more than just placess to rob loot.

Persona 4's were all the manifestations of the psyche of the person you are looking for (I found the 8/16 bit dungeon in particular hilarious).

Strange Journey's are all warped human locations (such as an elaborate multifloor super market with belts that send meat off to the perpetually hungry boss, it works a lot better than I describe it).


Too bad I can't say that about a rest of the MegaTen games. King Abaddon, as much as I enjoyed it's story, was very far into the "copy paste" design.