Simon Parkin is a child murderer wannabe

[Elwro]

Tags: Bethesda Softworks; Fallout 3

There's an interesting <a href="http://www.gamasutra.com/php-bin/news_index.php?story=20908">piece</a> over at Gamasutra which discusses the fact that you can't (easily) kill children in Fallout 3.<blockquote>Bethesda has implemented half of a legitimate real-world law into a virtual world defined by its very lawlessness and anarchic freedom. In this sense, it's a decision that hurts the integrity of Fallout 3's setting. Take away the freedom to commit atrocities within an open word game and you undermine the impact and power of the good, philanthropic choices a player makes.
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This is not to say that a game designer should not seek to communicate moral values via their game. Video games are all too often all about the ends and not the means. But self-censorship in this way removes all possibility of communicating moral worth through cause and effect, neutering the power and potential of the medium in doing so.
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Self-censorship was the least effective course of action open to Bethesda if they are looking to morally instruct their players. Why not take the route less traveled and try to implement some meaningful consequence, something beyond an essentially meaningless "karma" stat?
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Of course it is the route less traveled for a reason: it's a whole lot more work.</blockquote>Would adding the option to kill children improve the game? Perhaps seeing that the kids are unkillable breaks the immersion, but surely not more than an invisible wall you can't breach? Or the fact that the "karma" stat is "meaningless", as Simon points out? Read the <a href="http://www.gamasutra.com/php-bin/news_index.php?story=20908">piece</a> and discuss!
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Spotted at: <A HREF="http://www.rpgwatch.com">RPG Watch</A>

 

[Chefe]

I'll read it when I get home today, but I just have to say first, you've got to be fucking kidding me. Not only am I amazed that these "people" actually attempted to murder children in the game, but that they are also saying it is harmful to the RPG genre.

Let me tell you something, Simon Parkin. Evil isn't about how many people you kill. That's just being crazy. It's about refusing to help an old lady because you dislike her relative. It's about ridiculing a father in front of his son. It's about breaking up a couple who have loved and supported each other for years. It's about exploiting the weak for your own personal gain.

They complain when children are not included in the game, then they complain when they are included and made unkillable. I hope Bethesda doesn't take this to heart and includes children in their next games with a similar implementation. These people who advocate child killing not only should be disregarded completely, they should be jailed.

 

[sah]

Read the article. The way I see it, he would like Beth to have included that option so that the game world would react to killing children in a meaningful and serious way.

Restrict the player's abilities in order to impede their progress and you have a weak compromise that offers little in the way of persuasive or realistic moral instruction.
(...) But no matter what, in removing the opportunity to kill children in their anarchic game, Bethesda has admitted video games' ineffectiveness in providing meaningful disincentives and negative repercussions for in-game atrocities.

 

[JarlFrank]

I'll read it when I get home today, but I just have to say first, you've got to be fucking kidding me. Not only am I amazed that these "people" actually attempted to murder children in the game, but that they are also saying it is harmful to the RPG genre.

Let me tell you something, Simon Parkin. Evil isn't about how many people you kill. That's just being crazy. It's about refusing to help an old lady because you dislike her relative. It's about ridiculing a father in front of his son. It's about breaking up a couple who have loved and supported each other for years. It's about exploiting the weak for your own personal gain.

They complain when children are not included in the game, then they complain when they are included and made unkillable. I hope Bethesda doesn't take this to heart and includes children in their next games with a similar implementation. These people who advocate child killing not only should be disregarded completely, they should be jailed.

So you can't kill children in American Hare anymore?

 

[Andyman Messiah]

I chased those two children in Megaton around the whole town with my Fatman and my gatling laser. I never wanted it to end. And it never did.

 

[Unradscorpion]

I'll read it when I get home today, but I just have to say first, you've got to be fucking kidding me. Not only am I amazed that these "people" actually attempted to murder children in the game, but that they are also saying it is harmful to the RPG genre.

Let me tell you something, Simon Parkin. Evil isn't about how many people you kill. That's just being crazy. It's about refusing to help an old lady because you dislike her relative. It's about ridiculing a father in front of his son. It's about breaking up a couple who have loved and supported each other for years. It's about exploiting the weak for your own personal gain.

They complain when children are not included in the game, then they complain when they are included and made unkillable. I hope Bethesda doesn't take this to heart and includes children in their next games with a similar implementation. These people who advocate child killing not only should be disregarded completely, they should be jailed.

So you can't kill children in American Hare anymore?

I don't consider American Hare true to the franchise, it's a dumbed down text adventure for those middleagers who just want text and puzzles like in the Zork days.
I curse the day Chefe bought the IP.
He doesn't get the essence of American Hare, it will be just like the rest of his games only with an anthromorphic hare.

 

[DefJam101]

I think American Hare is a pretty cool guy. eh kills mexicans and doesn't afraid of anything.

 

[Volourn]

"but that they are also saying it is harmful to the RPG genre."

It is. The ability to choose to do great good is useless and meaningless without the ability to choose to great evil.

I woudl rather have the choice NOT to kill children 'cause it makes that chocie more meaningful than to be barred from doing because of some lame 'rule'.

It's about CHOICE.

 

[Jim Cojones]

Not only am I amazed that these "people" actually attempted to murder children in the game, but that they are also saying it is harmful to the RPG genre.

I don't want to kill children in any game. But I would like to roleplay a bad character who doesn't care about such stupid (in his opinion) things like morality. And there is a situation in game that he kills entire settlement but something forces him from shooting to children. So I wanted to play mindless and brutal character what game theoretically allows but then I came up to situation where I cannot find a motivation of my character's action which would suit his personality.

 

[Volourn]

I don't want to kill chidlren in game. I want the choice to avoid doing so.

 

[Korgan]

I do want to be a ruthless gunslinger that is infamous for slaughtering an entire town, women and children included. For a reason, of course. Like some influential religious bitch brainwashing the population to stop the PC from reaching his goal.

 

[spectre]

I want the option, not because I like to play a psychopath, but to have to face the consequences of it once I do it by accident. Or "accident".
But wait, that would require an above average writer to spin a quality story around that (and to see the potential in the first place). Oh well.

 

[spacemoose]

I chased those two children in Megaton around the whole town with my Fatman and my gatling laser. I never wanted it to end. And it never did.

fucking lol

 

[denizsi]

I'd love to have a certain quest line in main quest in my game which would have children die in horrible ways and as PC, you'd get to effect how many of them, and whether by action, or inaction, just to spite the sensitive, to turn their stomach.

 

[Texas Red]

There was a heavy point in killing children in Den. Those bastards pickpocketed you every time you went past them.

 

[Claw]

I want to be able to accidentally kill children.


Also:

Problematically, in singling out and self-censoring one particular type of 'crime' in his game, Pagliarulo by implication justifies all the others as being non-gratuitous and necessary. Last night I blew the head from a homeless scavenger girl, one who was barely into her twenties.

If we were good people, we'd all be playing games where you can only hurt the bad guys. And not commit any crimes.

 

[Ragg]

Unfortunately, even if Bethesda WANTED to have kids which could be killed, there's no friggin way they'd include them in Fallout 3.

This isn't 1997/1998 anymore, the gaming scene has changed. It's far more mainstream now, and things like this would get a lot more public attention. A game with kids which can be killed by the player? There's no way a company making a high-profile game like Fallout 3 would risk including something like that. The publicity would suck, and I'm pretty sure the ratings boards would kick up a fuss and rate the thing far higher than would be desired. Oh, and the Aussies would never see the game either, cos it's be banned over there as a consequence.

The last game I ever played which had killable kids was Deus Ex in 2000/2001. If it were released new today, there's no fucking way it wouldn't be censored/banned/rated far higher than it was. They just can't take these risks anymore on their investment.

 

[Lurkar]

I never felt the whole killable children thing was something that was implied for you to do on purpose (though of course, you could). Instead, I always thought it was far more geared towards accident. If you get into a gun fight in town, with shots flying everywhere thanks to low skill, putting the gun on auto, or any other number of reasons, there's a good chance civilians were going to hit the dirt. Sometimes, they were kids. if you're trying to play a very good aligned character, it sucks, and it's depressing. But that's what Fallout is supposed to be - exploring the ethics and such of a post nuclear world. And in the wasteland, sometimes children die.

It also brought up the black humor of the game where, if too many kids go down, they take something horrible (murdering children) and give you the rather hilarious picture of the moustache twirling villain running away from things being thrown at him. That's what the black humor is - taking refuge in atrocity.

 

[Chefe]

I read the article. It sucked. Hard.

"Last night I blew the head from a homeless scavenger girl, one who was barely into her twenties."

This. You want to know why things are taken a step back these days? It's this. Our world is filled with more maniacs than ever before. How can you do something like that, let alone publish it in an article? People have no moral standards. You put killable children in the game and millions of idiots will kill the kids and post the VATS videos on YouTube.

"Take away the freedom to commit atrocities within an open word game and you undermine the impact and power of the good, philanthropic choices a player makes."

Fuck you, Simon. Children the PC can't kill doesn't mean you cannot commit atrocities. Did everyone forget that you can blow up the entire fucking town of Megaton?? I'm pretty sure the kids don't survive that. There's your goddamn killable children. Kids should always be immortal outside of cutscenes. Too much freedom can be a bad thing, and the freedom to kill children wherever and whenever you want is an example of that.

"... Bethesda has admitted video games' ineffectiveness in providing meaningful disincentives and negative repercussions for in-game atrocities. That the team chose to carve the issue out of their game rather than attempt to engage it head on, speaks volumes."

Give me a break.

So you can't kill children in American Hare anymore?

You can in a few situations. The consequence is that the game insta-saves over your file, then you either die, are tortured until you die, or go so fucking crazy that further progression is next to impossible.

I don't consider American Hare true to the franchise, it's a dumbed down text adventure for those middleagers who just want text and puzzles like in the Zork days.
I curse the day Chefe bought the IP.
He doesn't get the essence of American Hare, it will be just like the rest of his games only with an anthromorphic hare.

First and third person games are so last-gen. Text is the future.

"but that they are also saying it is harmful to the RPG genre."

It is. The ability to choose to do great good is useless and meaningless without the ability to choose to great evil.

I woudl rather have the choice NOT to kill children 'cause it makes that chocie more meaningful than to be barred from doing because of some lame 'rule'.

It's about CHOICE.

By supporting Bioware you relinquish the right to form opinions about Good, Evil, and Choice. Sorry, I don't make the rules. If you have a problem, talk to God.

 

[Twinfalls]

This is not to say that a game designer should not seek to communicate moral values via their game..

..if they are looking to morally instruct their players.

What a prize faggot. Bethesda have no desire to 'communicate moral values' to anybody. They removed child killing to prevent censorship headaches and any chance of re-invigorating Joe Liebermann into making a tilt for 2012. "Hurts the integrity of Fallout 3's setting" oh give me a break, somebody send this type of useless buffoon into the coal pits please.

 

[dagorkan]

I read the article. It sucked. Hard.

"Last night I blew the head from a homeless scavenger girl, one who was barely into her twenties."

This. You want to know why things are taken a step back these days? It's this. Our world is filled with more maniacs than ever before. How can you do something like that, let alone publish it in an article? People have no moral standards. You put killable children in the game and millions of idiots will kill the kids and post the VATS videos on YouTube.

"Take away the freedom to commit atrocities within an open word game and you undermine the impact and power of the good, philanthropic choices a player makes."

Fuck you, Simon. Children the PC can't kill doesn't mean you cannot commit atrocities. Did everyone forget that you can blow up the entire fucking town of Megaton?? I'm pretty sure the kids don't survive that. There's your goddamn killable children. Kids should always be immortal outside of cutscenes. Too much freedom can be a bad thing, and the freedom to kill children wherever and whenever you want is an example of that.

"... Bethesda has admitted video games' ineffectiveness in providing meaningful disincentives and negative repercussions for in-game atrocities. That the team chose to carve the issue out of their game rather than attempt to engage it head on, speaks volumes."

Give me a break.

100% agree with you Chefe. You guys who spend time and energy arguing for your 'right' to kill kids in a video game need to get a reality check fast. Fuckin' freaks.

 

[Volourn]

"If you have a problem, talk to God."

Fuck God. The fuckin' bastard is the King of Murdering Children. Fuck him. he's as evil as 'Satan' is. Fuck God to hell. Take your evil hypocritical fuckin' God to hell.

 

[Chefe]

I didn't mean Yahweh. I meant "nature", "gaia", "cosmos" or some other transcendent... shit, you know what I meant.

 

[The Rambling Sage]

From what i have understood after narrating and playing some pretty awfully bleak, degenerate P&P chronicles he has a point about the death of children, harmless girls in their early twenties, and whatever. Brutality, atrocity, and the like have the power to totally screw the expectations of the player when they either witness it or become an unwitting, accidental acomplices to the event. On the other hand, allowing the player to commit those on demand kills the reason to have them on the first place: While a staged, tightly scripted act of brutality and cruelty can be trying to make a statement, a random act of violence can't have meaningful consequences with current technology and design philosophies. The world is not going to react to it in any meaningful way: You either lose some Karma, or you get bounty hunters on your trail. Wow, free loot. Thanks for the caps and ammo, morons.

And did someone hijacked Chefe's account or did he really change that much of his attitude in the last few months?

 

[Unradscorpion]

This is not to say that a game designer should not seek to communicate moral values via their game..

..if they are looking to morally instruct their players.

What a prize faggot. Bethesda have no desire to 'communicate moral values' to anybody. They removed child killing to prevent censorship headaches and any chance of re-invigorating Joe Liebermann into making a tilt for 2012. "Hurts the integrity of Fallout 3's setting" oh give me a break, somebody send this type of useless buffoon into the coal pits please.

People these days appearantly need game developers to tell them not to kill children, maybe banning these things isn't such a bad idea...