Editorial 2005: The Year in Review

[Whipporowill]

It's funny that you already have some great material for next year's review...

 

[Spazmo]

I'm mostly stunned that so many people apparently read this site. Anyways, fanboy outrage is hardly anything worth reporting on.

 

[undead dolphin hacker]

Except they still believe console RPGs, quality aside, are comparable in roleplaying to CRPGs.

CRPGs lick so much asshole nowadays that console RPGs are actually becoming comparable in terms of roleplaying.

Actually the best 'role playing' experience I've had in the past few years was with the PS2's "Romance of the Three Kingdoms" series (though to be fair the games are first developed for PCs, and then ported to PS2--only the PS2 versions come to the states, the PC versions are exclusively Asian).

 

[Mefi]

Except they still believe console RPGs, quality aside, are comparable in roleplaying to CRPGs.

CRPGs lick so much asshole nowadays that console RPGs are actually becoming comparable in terms of roleplaying.

Actually the best 'role playing' experience I've had in the past few years was with the PS2's "Romance of the Three Kingdoms" series (though to be fair the games are first developed for PCs, and then ported to PS2--only the PS2 versions come to the states, the PC versions are exclusively Asian).

I thought the series started out on something like the NES? Been playing KOEI games for a long time now, and I can certainly see where you are coming from with the roleplay elements of RotTK, but they certainly aren't console RPGs.

edit: meh, my bad. Looks like they started with a dos version first.

http://www.the-underdogs.org/game.php?id=925

 

[Llyranor]

The claims of better combat/dialogue/NPCs/AI at first were promising. Hey, I thought, if they really do improve all those it might be something worth looking forward - I'll just wait and see.

Then E3 came.

You want facts? These are facts.
http://www.gametrailers.com/player.php? ... e&type=mov
http://www.gametrailers.com/player.php? ... e&type=wmv

Conversation between 2 NPCs, with no player input:
"Nelos, hello!"
"Good to see you, Marus, what news have you heard?"
"The news is bad! Rumor has it there has been an attack on Kebaj. They say the daedra attacked in great numbers!"
"Grave news indeed... Perhaps my axe could be of use..."
"I would imagine so! Goodbye, Nelos, and good luck!

Then the PC talks to Marus:
"Hello. What can this humble bard do for you in these troubling times?"
>>Daedra attack!!!!!
"I wish I knew more about it. Strange gates have appeared, and daedra swarm the Legion soldiers. They say the streets run red with blood, and the daedra will soon overtake the entire city! If you're good with a blade, they could use you there."
QUEST ADDED.
"Gods protect you."

The next dev quote is priceless: "This is a really natural way of doing it. You overhear a conversation, learn a new topic and ask someone about it."

Next, the PC enters a bookstore.
"Oh hello! I was actually just about to lock up the store. Is there something I can help you with?"
>>Chorrol
"If you're looking for books, you're in the right place!!!!"

Then the dev clicks on the 'Joke button' on the interface.
"That's a good one! An Orc in a party dress. I love it! R00FLES!!!"
>>Daedra attack!!!!!
"Everything I've heard is horrible. Creatures coming from magical gates. Whole cities being destroyed. Nations being ruled by necromancy. It's awful!"

AND THE QUOTE OF THE YEAR:
"The whole thing is terrifying, actually. Would you mind staying around for a while? Just to keep me company?"
>>Why would I stay in this dump?
>>I always have time for you.
The dev clicks on option 1 to show off how dynamic and deep the radiant AI is.
"There's no reason to be rude! You can leave now if you want!"
>>I'm only kidding, my Jedi friend.
"Oh, silly me. I should have known you were only teasing. Please, come on upstairs with me."

And that, my Jedi friends, is exactly why everyone who considers themselves a RPG fan should go out and get Oblivion.

I love the part where the user rating for that footage is 9.3/10, since the footage is, like, not complete drivel.

Oblivion stopped mattering as of E3. Radiant AI isn't a substitute for an actual game.

It doesn't matter if ANY of this remains in the final game, the fact that THIS was shown at E3 says all that freaking needs to be said about the game. Shouldn't demos at least pretend to even remotely try to sell the final product, instead of alienating all fans of the actual genre? Then again, what genre are we talking about?

The graphics are nice, though, and full voice-over is pretty innovative, so it's not all bad.

 

[Volourn]

"Except they still don't know what turnbased is."

Neither does the Codex know what turn based or real time combat is.



"Except they don't have the brain power to see what our complaints may be."

Nor does the Codex have the brain power to see what others' complaints are about Troika or the Codex.




"Except they don't have the perception required to understand why someone mentioned Diablo. Hint: it isn't because we're powergamers."

The Codex is all about powergaming. It;s no wonder SP is a Sacred fanboy.


"Except they still believe console RPGs, quality aside, are comparable in roleplaying to CRPGs."

No worse than the Codex actually believing that 'old skool' RPGs like M&M or Wuzardry were deep role-playing games.

R00fles!

Both of us can play this game.

Spin it all you want; but the the article while entertaining is full of lies, fanboyism, and bullshit.

btw, I like that, as the best artciles usually are.


D0uble R00fles!

 

[HanoverF]

I like the "Flight Sim" slam, what's that about?

In the 90's was every flight sim was set in WWII or something? So they complained, 'Maybe a new setting would be good, or how about letting us pick our own flight plans instead of flying a set course, and hey letting us fly into restricted airspace and possibly get shot down would be better than just putting a big gate in front of it'

 

[Section8]

I think it's just that nobody is making flight sims anymore, and they aren't making fun ones, or something. I actually used to be a huge flight sim fan, back in the heyday of developers like Dynamix, but as they got more an more realistic, I discovered I wasn't really into flight simulation, I was into dogfighting games.

Still, I can't help but sympathise with anyone who has had their favourite genre washed out by commercialism. I'd imagine adventure gamers are in the same boat too.

Nor does the Codex have the brain power to see what others' complaints are about Troika or the Codex.

We do, and remain ignorant by choice, which is arguably worse because that's even more elitist, and in effect "consciously stupid." But hey.

It doesn't matter if ANY of this remains in the final game, the fact that THIS was shown at E3 says all that freaking needs to be said about the game. Shouldn't demos at least pretend to even remotely try to sell the final product, instead of alienating all fans of the actual genre? Then again, what genre are we talking about?

I don't get how many people seem willing to accept the "it's a short demo of a really big game, they don't have time to show of features like interesting NPC interaction, non-ghost towns, well written dialogue, etc."

Bullshit. With the degree of control Bethesda exercises over their preview content, they could show off a screenshot that shows an NPC with more than two dialogue options, and that would be the only thing fans can judge by, which would put it in a positive, if dubious light.

As it stands, all the evidence we have makes it look like Morrowind all over, but with drastically fewer Wiki entries.

Now I understand perfectly that we're not the target audience for pre-release hype. They're firmly targetting the illiterate, those who are likely to be scared by messy "reading". (sic) But how can it hurt to make even just a single show of good faith to actual fans of the series?

Bethesda's PR department is walking a very fine line that almost reads as "Fans of the old games? This isn't for you. We've worked out our new target audience, and how to sell to them, so you guys can just crawl back into your parents' basements and play something else."

It's almost like they're banking on the whole bunch of us buying the game out of morbid curiosity.

 

[Twinfalls]

As it stands, all the evidence we have makes it look like Morrowind all over, but with drastically fewer Wiki entries.

And with dumber dialogue. The amazing thing about those videos is that as bad and stupidly simple as the dialogue is in written form, they manage to make it even more brain-numbingly awful by using crap, overwrought voice-acting.

 

[spacemoose]

It is best to be a lowest-common-denominator consumer in a capitalist (or any) society. That way you're guaranteed to get what you want.

Bethesda is acting in its own interest by making the game appeal to the broadest swath of consumers as possible. I don't blame them. If I was out to make money, thats exactly what I would do too.

I don't expect them to make a real RPG because they are a large company looking at the bottom line. And that's it - if you want to like the games they will make, better make yourself into the lowest common denominator consumer.

On the other hand, there are still good things about Oblivion, mainly exploring a world you haven't seen before. I will buy Oblivion, I would rather have Bethesda make Oblivion than make nothing.

But niche games, like (real) RPGs are not going anywhere. Small companies/groups who care more about the quality of their product than profit margins still exist, and they make the niche games that they themselves like - Prelude to Darkness, Mount and Blade and VD's Age of Decadence being the most obvious examples.

They are few and far between, but I don't think they will ever disappear completely. These small companies might not last, just because the costs of making the niche game is not likely to be recouped by the volume of copies sold, but someone else will pick up the torch down the line, because even though these niche games are not profitable, they are labors of love that their creators can be proud of, knowing that they made something they themselves would enjoy, and others will enjoy as well.

Nothing new in this post really, but sometimes a summary is good too.

 

[theverybigslayer]

I'm mostly stunned that so many people apparently read this site. Anyways, fanboy outrage is hardly anything worth reporting on.

Very great review Spazmo!
Sad but true.

 

[Jon]

"Nations being ruled by necromancy."

hehe, I wonder if they read the Dragon Age faq?

 

[hiciacit]

I think next year, well just put up an article that says "FUCK YOU AND YOUR FAVOURITE GAME" in gigantic letters.

This thread is by far the funniest thing in a long time...

Great article btw, made me wonder why I'm still playing games.

 

[Draikin]

great article. i'm enjoying the reactions on various forums.

 

[Volourn]

So am I. Including my own. And, the reactions to the reactions.

Good stuff!

 

[Diogo Ribeiro]

Neither does the Codex know what turn based or real time combat is.

Gareth's editorial and the multiple discussions (too many to even link to) about the subject matter say: NO.

Nor does the Codex have the brain power to see what others' complaints are about Troika or the Codex.

You're assuming the Codex staff and the regulars are incapable of recognizing the problems in Troika games, when they have been doing so for quite some time. You're also assuming we don't understand others' complaints about the site when the truth is: we know, we just don't plain care.

The Codex is all about powergaming. It;s no wonder SP is a Sacred fanboy.

By your own logic, The Codex is also all about Firstperson Shooting because some staff members like Deus Ex or Vampire: Bloodlines.

No worse than the Codex actually believing that 'old skool' RPGs like M&M or Wuzardry were deep role-playing games.

The opinions of a few don't necessarily reflect the opinions of the whole. You know this.

Spin it all you want; but the the article while entertaining is full of lies, fanboyism, and bullshit.

I'm not trying to spin anything; in fact I'm not even talking about the article.

 

[Volourn]

"You're assuming the Codex staff and the regulars are incapable of recognizing the problems in Troika games, when they have been doing so for quite some time. You're also assuming we don't understand others' complaints about the site when the truth is: we know, we just don't plain care."

No, they don't recognize. If they did, they won't blame the publishers all the time. Troika's games wekanesses are on Troika's head. Period. If someone doesn't realzie that they are stupid.


"By your own logic, The Codex is also all about Firstperson Shooting because some staff members like Deus Ex or Vampire: Bloodlines."

Exactly. The Codex doesn't know what a RPG is. This is evdeinc ed by what games they cover in the News Section. This site is the last site that should be criticizing others' on what is or isn't a RPG.

I cna't wait til the next DS article! R00fles!


"The opinions of a few don't necessarily reflect the opinions of the whole. You know this."

Don't cry when I used the Codex's own whining logic of steroetyping others all with the same brush. R00fles!


"I'm not trying to spin anything; in fact I'm not even talking about the article."

Nonsense. If this is true, you wouldn't be posting in this thread or you are simply spamming. Your choice.

 

[Shinan]

Reading this, and most of the linked discussions to this, I understand why I never turned back after joining and reading the Codex regularily. I may not post much in this forum but whenever I have a thirty minutes left over I can jump into the forums, read six pages of discussion on some roleplaying aspect and when I'm done I'll feel more enlightened. Not to forget that most of my opinions would have been in those six pages as well as a number of great opinions I'd never thought of.

The Codex rock. Despite Rex.

 

[Vault Dweller]

"You're assuming the Codex staff and the regulars are incapable of recognizing the problems in Troika games, when they have been doing so for quite some time. You're also assuming we don't understand others' complaints about the site when the truth is: we know, we just don't plain care."

No, they don't recognize. If they did, they won't blame the publishers all the time. Troika's games wekanesses are on Troika's head. Period. If someone doesn't realzie that they are stupid.

Troika isn't the first company killed by publishers. Besides, quality is hardly relevant. Troika's games aren't the only ones with issues. Both KOTORs had big issues, yet both games are celebrated, etc.

Going back to that old dispute, Arcanum would have sold much better if Sierra didn't sit on the game for 6 months, allowing everyone with the internet to download an anticipated and unavilable game. That was the beginning of the end. The fact that Troika couldn't make Arcanum 2 without dead Sierra didn't help either.

Say what you want about quality, polish, reputation, etc; but Arcanum 2 would have sold, and Against the Giants would have sold, etc.

Exactly. The Codex doesn't know what a RPG is. This is evdeinc ed by what games they cover in the News Section. This site is the last site that should be criticizing others' on what is or isn't a RPG.

You've been explained a gazillion times why we do that, but apparently you find posting nonsense amusing.

 

[HardCode]

Anyways, fanboy outrage is hardly anything worth reporting on.

I disagree. I think you should write a review on TES Forumer Frankie and post it on the main page. That should be an interesting read.

 

[Jason]

It can be a whole series about different topics like "Frankie On: Immigration" or "Frankie On: The Health Care Crisis in America." Each episode, Frankie will email Congressmen and CEOs and get them fired. It will be amazing and CNN will go out of business.

 

[Spazmo]

Eh. We tried that with Cleve (who is about as bright as Frankie in any case). It wasn't that great.

 

[Volourn]

"Troika isn't the first company killed by publishers. Besides, quality is hardly relevant. Troika's games aren't the only ones with issues. Both KOTORs had big issues, yet both games are celebrated, etc."

Keep makinge xuses for the company who you suck their dick. EVERY COMPANY that has gone under is due to their own fualt. I don't care what exuses you make for them. Troika failed becuase of their own ineptness. Period. And, I'll say that despite liking 2 out of 3 of their games. The facts are the facts.

They chose their publishers. They agreed to the deals. They made the decisions that effected their company for good or ill. Tim Cain, and Troika's other founding owners had Final Say tm in how their company was run.

EVERYTHING is lain on THEIR shoulders.

Period.


"You've been explained a gazillion times why we do that, but apparently you find posting nonsense amusing."

And, as always, it's a lame cop out. The Codex supoosedly prides itself in its hardcoreness, and it's love for niche products but doens't back it up when it covers games it doesn't cosndier RPGs whether that be dreck like DS or even a favorite of mine in BG.

You guys have the balls to flame, and insult people hypocritically.

It's too bad you don't have the balls to stand by what the site supposedly stands for - Hardcore CRPGs.

Dumbasses, and cowards.

 

[Section8]

Keep makinge xuses for the company who you suck their dick. EVERY COMPANY that has gone under is due to their own fualt. I don't care what exuses you make for them. Troika failed becuase of their own ineptness. Period. And, I'll say that despite liking 2 out of 3 of their games. The facts are the facts.

They chose their publishers. They agreed to the deals. They made the decisions that effected their company for good or ill. Tim Cain, and Troika's other founding owners had Final Say tm in how their company was run.

EVERYTHING is lain on THEIR shoulders.

It's certainly true that Troika could have greatly scaled back the ambitions they had for their games, and perhaps avoided the many shortcomings that earned the reputation of bugginess, and it's also true that Troika could have chosen to make low risk "slam dunk!" titles. The fact that they didn't provided us with 3 great games that were also, sadly, disappointing when they fell short of the high bar.

Temple of Elemental Evil may frustrate the shit out of me at times, but it doesn't make a concerted effort toward constant irritation, like say, Baldur's Gate. It also has some shining moments where I can sit down, lose myself for a few hours, and forget the many flaws.

Bloodlines, likewise. I can live through the shabby linear combat sections, knowing what high points are there to be enjoyed. It's not a game like Quake 4, where linear combat medicrity is all there is (highly polished though it may be).

Arcanum has probably run it's course with me, having explored almost all major avenues of plot and character development, leaving me to slowly lose enthusiasm as I experience the combat and linear main plot once more, but it managed to provide more enjoyment in even a single playthrough than Morrowind or NWN did in countless aborted attempts with a multitude of "different" characters.

So with that in mind, I'm glad Troika chose the path they did, even if it did sadly lead to their eventual demise. I'd rather celebrate flawed greatness than perfect mediocrity.

 

[protobob]

I liked a lot of things in this article, mainly the bits about the woes of boring combat, and making boring combat that appeals to the lowest common denominator.

Todays action RPGs are the gaming equivalent of a Britney Spears record. Especially the Fisher Price abominations that Bioware Games have become (I'm looking at your NWN OC, KOTOR and JE).

The reaction is predictable, people respond to vitriol with vitriol, but if you left out the vitriol nobody would read it--this pretty much sums up the codex.