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Interview “It's more like a Tarantino approach": Cyberpunk 2077 Interview at IGN

winterraptor

Cipher
Joined
Dec 13, 2008
Messages
408
Divinity: Original Sin Torment: Tides of Numenera
yeeah... i've played cp 2020 and 2013 and trashing the entirety of its mechanics other than a few core ideas is the only rational thing to do.

I dunno about only a 'few core ideas', but certainly the system is dated and would do well for an overhaul. At the simplest is the very core, the 1d10 resolution, which is shit (the first thing I had to do when I began GMing was tone down the 10% crit failure chance, which was insane). I recall some later tries at Fuzion system resolution, like in the Champions New Millenium debacle, they changed it to 3d6. I'm not at all familiar with Pondsmith's much-criticized newer CP edition, though.

Then there were abuses from the core 2020 book that even Pondsmith admitted...

But this is ultimately a video game adaptation, so it's viability in comparison to the modern wants in a PnP RPG is not exactly the issue. They could patch it up for their purposes, if they were actually trying to emulate an RPG as apposed to this gradually Declining, probable ARPG.
 

tuluse

Arcane
Joined
Jul 20, 2008
Messages
11,400
Serpent in the Staglands Divinity: Original Sin Project: Eternity Torment: Tides of Numenera Shadorwun: Hong Kong
Since I already have a new turn-based cyberpunk RPG to play, I look forward to this one doing something different. :cool:
I'm surprised you're looking forward to this given the quantity and brazenness of the "questionable content" sure to appear.

I always thought that Star Wars was SCIFI, but not SF or science fiction
Science fantasy is the best term for Star Wars.

That would be uplifting since this would mean they realized how TW2 was oversaturated with cutscenes. But how they are going to "tell the story" without resorting to cheap tricks (aka. cinematic approach0 is a mystery.
What I *hope* they mean: Design the game like the DEHR level when you can save the helicopter pilot.

What they probably mean: Design the game so all the story is in optional content so dude bros never have to stop their pew pew.
 

Sunsetspawn

Arcane
Joined
Feb 10, 2013
Messages
1,051
Location
New York
Unfortunately I still haven't gotten around to playing any of The Witcher games so I don't know how much faith I should be putting into CDP. I still have an unopened copy of the first Witcher sitting here that I plan on eventually getting around to, after which I would decide whether or not to play the second one, and then third. I've heard good things from people in real life, but I know a lot of the uberhipsters around here poke fun at Twitcher games in a mean-spirited way. Anyway, I had previously been looking forward to this as I love the genre, but I'm worried now because of the codexery afoot. Since this game hasn't even been started yet and there are only CDP's Twitcher games to go by, is this really likely to just be a TPS?

Instead of rolling dice, Cyberpunk 2077 will use rolling Geralts to determine hit chance, damage and criticals table.
Why?
diceman.jpg
 

Misconnected

Savant
Joined
Jan 18, 2012
Messages
587
H

As much as I agree that dice rolls and other nonsense are pretty much redundant
o_O

On the TT a system has to so simple that a human can keep it memorised. It has to be so consistent that humans can expand on it on the fly without disagreeing how. It has to somehow be engaging/fun to wield. And humans have to be able to use it at a high enough pace that they don't fall asleep.
Dice aren't required for any of that, but they can be extremely useful for all of it.

If, however, the system is wielded exclusively by a machine, none of those things are a concern. If a random value between 1 and 7 makes the most sense in some very rare situation, you don't have to use a d6 or d8 instead. And you don't have to resolve the very rare situation in a way that is mechanically consistent with how you resolve other events.
Dice are unnecessarily restrictive with no advantages.

...

That's not the same as me saying you should claim to make a video game based on a TTRPG, and then not even attempt to use the TTRPG system. To me, all you accomplish that way is to screw up the experience existing players want, and the expectations of potential new players. Really, it makes you a bit of a dick.

There's also the slight issue that video game devs have a very, very long and practically unbroken tradition of delivering system design vaaaaaaaastly inferior to every last one of the major TTRPG systems.

Sooo... In principle I entirely agree there's no need for dice in video games. In practice, however, it would seem that dice forces designers to suck less. And why the fuck you'd go out of your way to make a in-name-only game, whatever the medium, is well fucking beyond me.
 

keppj0nes

Educated
Joined
May 4, 2008
Messages
77
I've spent so much time daydreaming about this game, I don't want to read anything disappointing about it
 

winterraptor

Cipher
Joined
Dec 13, 2008
Messages
408
Divinity: Original Sin Torment: Tides of Numenera
On the TT a system has to so simple that a human can keep it memorised. It has to be so consistent that humans can expand on it on the fly without disagreeing how. It has to somehow be engaging/fun to wield. And humans have to be able to use it at a high enough pace that they don't fall asleep.
Dice aren't required for any of that, but they can be extremely useful for all of it.

If, however, the system is wielded exclusively by a machine, none of those things are a concern. If a random value between 1 and 7 makes the most sense in some very rare situation, you don't have to use a d6 or d8 instead. And you don't have to resolve the very rare situation in a way that is mechanically consistent with how you resolve other events.
Dice are unnecessarily restrictive with no advantages.

The difference greatly depends on how much complexity is poured into the resolution system - most of them probably aren't going to go the route of a Jagged Alliance 2, and if they aren't, 'virtual dice' are about as effective as they need, and stealing all sorts of playtest and actual game revision time from whatever system they're emulating that they only have to tinker with as apposed to build from the ground up. If they build it from scratch they are basically throwing away an already established system of balance and thinking they can do better, which as you've said, is generally exposed as horseshit, with some exceptions (due to strong tactical focus). What most of them end up doing is dumb it down even further from the moderate base of many PnP systems to better suit their Decline.

One also has to consider whether they want a true '1-1000' % roll or create more of a bell-curve base akin to systems like GURPS or HERO that use just that via a 3d6, roll under base (though roll under is mostly to keep numbers quite low and thus speed the PnP calculations). Naturally this and more is possible through the computer format doing it behind the scenes, but it's wise to consider there is an effective balance to using small, simple numbers beyond the necessities of PnP play. These systems have been answering the very CRPG relevant questions of 'what can this player-controlled character simulation do, and how does it interact with the mechanics of the system?' for quite a while and I don't really see the point in reinventing it's wheel when CRPGS haven't even matched them with few exceptions. Better to draw on that as much as possible.

The possibilities of player imagination at the game table far exceed the capability of CRPG design, and if the PnP system is one that supports that imagination, the CRPG designers are going to be dumbing it down no matter what. No doubt that is part of the motivation for creating a shitty facsimile of a PnP system from scratch. Why bother using something good at base, just to make shit?

Preferably the designers would take such a system and just tweak it down to a healthy moderate version instead of Retardville Custom System #93, or something that would be 'too' tactical for the storyfags, if you will.

Granted, I wouldn't mind a full representation of some of the more tactically varied, 'include most possibilities' modern PnP systems, but it isn't always necessarily the goal of a good CRPG.
 

Jaesun

Fabulous Ex-Moderator
Patron
Joined
May 14, 2004
Messages
37,258
Location
Seattle, WA USA
MCA
CDProject's #1 target audience is Mass Accessibility. NOT for honoring or presenting a great PnP cRPG series to a video game.

Rest in peace as you are brutally raped Cyberpunk™.
 

DeepOcean

Arcane
Joined
Nov 8, 2012
Messages
7,396
When you think about Cyberpunk you think about shooting, action, a lot of explosions

When you think about Cyberpunk you think about shooting, action, a lot of explosions.

When you think about Cyberpunk you think about shooting, action, a lot of explosions.


Cosplay popamole corridor shooter confirmed...
I understand that they plan to sell this thing to the popamolers with low attention spam but It was really necessary to say such dumb things. It is like shooting the people that liked the PnP RPG then to throw salt in the wound. He even said that trying to adapt the traditional PnP system would be boring and too passive... yeah... shooting alot of dudebros in corridors and watching cutscenes is going to be really AWESOME and active. There is no difference between this and what Todd said: "When I think in a RPG, I think in a knight killing shit." I expected popamole but not Bethesda level stupid thinking.
 

Borelli

Arcane
Joined
Dec 5, 2012
Messages
1,269
In the future megacorporations will rape existing products and franchises for money... hey i just got it the CDP is roleplaying an evil corporation! It obviously means they are SO into cyberpunk there is no way this will not be good!
 

Mrowak

Arcane
Joined
Sep 26, 2008
Messages
3,947
Project: Eternity
H

As much as I agree that dice rolls and other nonsense are pretty much redundant
o_O

Yeah, oftentimes stats and dice are redundant. They are neccessary in P&P RPGs as a tool for randomisation, but even there you can substitute them with e.g. cards drawn at random. Actually Serpent's Way - the new card battle system for a full-blown RPG looks enticing for me for this reason only.

To my mind in cRPGs at times they are overused (especially in games where you control one character), or misused (e.g. in the case of dialogue trees where you "click to win" the option provided to you by stat tresholds, or in jRPGs and MMO where your stat scores simply inflate over time and the "character progression" becomes a tedius stat grind).

I am in favour of "flat" ability-based systems with little to no stat gains over time (e.g. whether you are level 1 or 50, your HP remains the same) and dice rolls are used strictly to randomise opportunities as opposed to player's actions. Instead in such a system the player can still utilise a wide selection of skills whose effectiveness depends on circumstantial factors and timing.

So for me the first sentence in the dev's statement isn't such a heresy... only the second one betrays the profound lack of vision and understanding of what makes or breaks an RPG. To my mind it's neither stats, nor explosions and action. It's actually the level of interactivity with the world presented and the adventure that the player enjoys.
 

dibens

as seen on shoutbox
Patron
Joined
Dec 4, 2011
Messages
2,629
Are you saying Codex is predictable?

Codex is codex. I'm referring to the game. People seem to had expectations for this one, but from the very start I could see nothing more than just a Witcher with guns. A corridor shooter with great visuals, dialogue and some "c&c" thrown in for good measure, but a corridor shooter non the less. So far the they have done nothing to disperse this notion.
 

MasPingon

Arcane
Joined
May 13, 2007
Messages
1,805
Location
Castle Rock
Wow, ignore button surely is useful. I can't see cvv retardiation even in quotes. You should advertise more those new features
 

cvv

Arcane
Patron
Joined
Mar 30, 2013
Messages
18,184
Location
Kingdom of Bohemia
Codex+ Now Streaming!
Are you saying Codex is predictable?

Codex is codex. I'm referring to the game. People seem to had expectations for this one, but from the very start I could see nothing more than just a Witcher with guns. A corridor shooter with great visuals, dialogue and some "c&c" thrown in for good measure, but a corridor shooter non the less. So far the they have done nothing to disperse this notion.

I did have some expectations for this game, I still do, simply because I love sci-fi and sci-fi RPGs are so rare. The last great one was what, Fallout 2? Deus Ex if you include hybrids. And the only one between this and today that was not complete trash was DX:HR.
I guess I don't have to be too disappointed in the age of incline, after all we have promising games Wasteland 2, Underrail or What Remains incoming, maybe the new Torment and Dead State can be tagged as sci-fi too. Still, in this genre, every loss hurts.
 

fanta

Arcane
Joined
May 3, 2012
Messages
509
CRPG Designers said:
The main problem is that the original system is based on dice rolls.

CRPGs of the past were turn based only because of technical limitations.

I dislike RPGs.

I see your problem.
 

Infinitron

I post news
Staff Member
Joined
Jan 28, 2011
Messages
97,505
Codex Year of the Donut Serpent in the Staglands Dead State Divinity: Original Sin Project: Eternity Torment: Tides of Numenera Wasteland 2 Shadorwun: Hong Kong Divinity: Original Sin 2 A Beautifully Desolate Campaign Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire Pathfinder: Kingmaker Pathfinder: Wrath I'm very into cock and ball torture I helped put crap in Monomyth
Uh bro "non-high fantasy" does not equal sci-fi

Dead State? lol
 

cvv

Arcane
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Joined
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Messages
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Location
Kingdom of Bohemia
Codex+ Now Streaming!
Uh bro "non-high fantasy" does not equal sci-fi

Dead State? lol

Postapo is a subgenre of sci-fi, zombie postapo is, granted, borderline. That's why I said maybe.
Don't know much about the Numenera setting, but it is about distant future humanity, although in the "medieval state", according to wiki. Again, that's why the "maybe".
 

MicoSelva

backlog digger
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Vigil's Keep
Codex 2012 Codex 2013 Codex 2014 PC RPG Website of the Year, 2015 Codex 2016 - The Age of Grimoire Make the Codex Great Again! Grab the Codex by the pussy Insert Title Here RPG Wokedex Strap Yourselves In Codex Year of the Donut Codex+ Now Streaming! Enjoy the Revolution! Another revolution around the sun that is. Serpent in the Staglands Divinity: Original Sin Project: Eternity Torment: Tides of Numenera Divinity: Original Sin 2 Bubbles In Memoria A Beautifully Desolate Campaign Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire Pathfinder: Kingmaker Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag. Pathfinder: Wrath I helped put crap in Monomyth
Were there dice rolls in Gothic/Risen? I don't think so. They are probably the best action RPGs out there.
However, there were background dice rolls in Alpha Protocol, and I remember everyone saying that shooting mechanics sucked in that game.
 

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