rpgcodex > I have come to realize this place is filled with degenerates anyway. Not one, but multiple mentally ill people just allowed to run free without oversight.

ItsChon

Your position is a logically consistent one, so fair enough. I'm not homophobic in any sense of the word, but that doesn't mean I'm okay with it. I just can't fathom how anyone could be okay with their son liking dick.

Lithium Flower

So what motivates your own preference, then?

ItsChon

I'm a devout Christian so obviously that's a big part of it, but it's not quite that simple. I think moral relativism is bullshit, and the vast majority of people agree with that, or act in a way that assumes agreement. If moral relativism is bullshit, than that means there is a right and a wrong. The issue is that there is no factual way to prove the existence of a right vs a wrong.

ItsChon

What that means is there are certain things in life that are undoubtedly true, but we have no logical reasoning for it. It's not just good and evil, there are many examples. Men shouldn't hit girls is one, we should behave with integrity is another.

ItsChon

I'm of the belief that homosexuality being immoral is one of those things, and of course, the major justification I use for all of these "truths" is the Bible. I can go into further detail onto why I think history and evolution backs these fundamental truths up, but that's just a brief synopsis on what motivates my preference.

Lithium Flower

Don't have a formal background in theology or philosophy but I'm pretty sure that moral relativism implies things can be morally permissible depending on x perspective. The alternative is not necessarily that there are things that are always right or wrong, one could also believe that nothing is intrinsically right or wrong (I believe that is called moral nihilism).

Lithium Flower

And then there is the deeper epistemological layer concerning stuff like moral realism and moral anti-realism and the rabbit hole goes on and on.

Lithium Flower

So what I am trying to say is that disagreeing with moral relativism doesn't necessarily lead one to the hard existence of moral truths.

Zombra

So basically you're trying to prove that deep in their hearts, everyone "really" thinks that gays are icky, bad people. Sorry man, that's just not the case.

ItsChon

There are several philosophical positions that fall under moral relativism, two of which are the ones you stated. I should have been more precise. I'll rephrase it like this. I'm a firm believer in the idea that certain things are right and certain things are wrong, regardless of how you look at it (I.E, killing an innocent person for no reason).

ItsChon

So if you wish, I'll call myself someone who firmly disagrees with Moral Nihilism. Either way, that's how I come up with the conclusion that there is a hard existence of moral truths.

Lithium Flower

Gotcha. Yeah, I guess this is a consistent perspective for a theist because you've got god and divine revelation and what have you to act as an objective source of morality.

ItsChon

Zombra Not necessarily, just that a vast majority of people share the same inner aversion to homosexuality that religious people do. The difference is that religious people are honest about it. And note, I never said that gays are "icky, bad people". In my view, yes, homosexuality is a sin. But so is lust, and lying and a host of other things that myself and everyone else is guilty of. Who am I to judge?

Lithium Flower

I guess my next question would be how you got to disagreeing with moral nihilism, but I guess that would just lead into your theism.

Zombra

Eh. 'Proving' that "The vast majority of people say one thing but secretly agree with my unpopular hateful beliefs, therefore I am justified in my unpopular hateful beliefs" isn't really a wonderful goal. Anyway, if your first assumption is that all atheists are liars anyway, why would we tell the truth on your profile post?

Lithium Flower

Zombra even though I probably agree with you in general, I find that you are way too uncharitable to these sorts of hypotheticals and philosophical convos.

Zombra

Thank you for calling me on that LF. I do have a strong tendency to look for the adversarial angle. At the same time ... cutting to the heart here, it appears that the motivation for this whole post is pretty rancid. And I'm really sick of people on the internet who assume that "the vast majority really agree with me."

ItsChon

Just because a belief is unpopular doesn't mean it's necessarily invalid. I'm also willing to bet that the majority of the world has a view that is as "negative" as mine regarding homosexuality, if not more so. I don't need to justify my views on homosexuality. The purpose of my question was to see if people are consistent with their logic.

ItsChon

The vast majority of people IK IRL wouldn't want their kid to be gay, even as self prescribed liberals. Both of you exhibited a level of consistency that I haven't yet seen.

ItsChon

As for how I got to disagreeing with moral nihilism, part of it is due to my theism, but it goes deeper to that. The reason I can make the assertion that the vast majority of people also disagree with moral nihilism, even if they're self described atheists, is simple.