rpgcodex > I love you, mother

Jacob

There are 2 reasons for sexual activity. 1, Reproduction, being able to reproduce is better, with exception of places suffering from overpopulation. 2, Sexual pleasure, which is obviously highly subjective. If reproduction is taken out, there are no objective measure anymore regarding sexual preferences.

Jacob

*reasons should be motivations. I am vocab gestapo.

Zombra

LF, the question isn't which is "objectively" better or worse, in terms of universal virtue. See the clarification comment, it's about whether one state is more beneficial to the subject. Is one "better off" than the other?

Zombra

Personally, I feel that when you remove the stigma, the homosexual is better off. Since public homosexual culture has only recently come out from underground in modern times, it has far less baggage in terms of assumptions. Heterosexual gender roles and basic courtship procedures are steeped in bizarre antiquity, generally causing a lot of weird expectations for all concerned. Or maybe that's just me.

ItsChon

Lithium Flower The point of the question is to create a sort of thought experiment. You're correct when you say that my perspective is theistic, so naturally I have my own opinions on it, but my moral criteria wouldn't be considered valid by anyone that's not theistic.

ItsChon

"Objectively" (as in a way provable by facts), there is no reason why it's "worse" to be gay than straight; but you'll very rarely see atheists behave this way. There is no doubt in my mind that the vast majority of atheists, if they were given the option to choose whether or not their son/daughter could be gay or straight in a society with no biases, would choose the straight option.

Lithium Flower

ok, if you just want to get other perspectives, then I understand. Perhaps would be better to word this as "in your moral system (or lack thereof), is homosexuality worse than heterosexuality, assuming no social bias and every other condition being equal" but I am just being pedantic.

Lithium Flower

Zombra, it looks like this is about morality after all and ItsChon specifies an "SJW paradise" so I would assume that trad gender roles aren't a factor in hetero relationships either.

ItsChon

This isn't limited exclusively to homosexuality, we also see it in things like abortion. If abortion is no big deal, why should it be "safe, legal, and rare" as the famous Clinton adage goes. If it's not a life, what's the fundamental difference between birth control and an abortion?

Lithium Flower

Personally, I place no intrinsic value in reproduction or heterosexuality so I don't see either sexuality as being worse off.

ItsChon

Zombra My only point was that if you're presented with two options that are exactly the same in every way except for the differences in sexuality, the vast majority of people would still pick heterosexuality instead of homosexuality. The question is why. P.S: It's not because we're all straight and biased it.

ItsChon

As for your point regarding gender roles, are you really trying to imply that the assumptions and roles that are steeped into heterosexuality are bad? And even if they are, what makes you think that those very same roles and stereotypes don't make themselves into homosexual relationships?

ItsChon

Lithium Flower Yes, other perspectives is exactly what I'm after, and you also cleared up Zombra's point for me rather nicely. And fair enough on the wording; I don't put nearly as thought into these statuses as I should, but oh well.

Of course, you didn't answer my question. Gay or straight, and if not based on a theistic reason, why?

Zombra

Assuming no social biases, and assuming that reproduction was also a complete non-issue, I would not care whether my child was gay or straight. I would probably say a homosexual would be better off for reasons listed above.

Lithium Flower

The thing about abortion is that making it illegal does not actually lower the rates of it happening, at least in the US. So regardless if you see abortions as murder or not, the best ways to lower abortion is to provide people with sexual education and contraceptives (plus poor people tend to have way more unplanned pregnancies so there is that)

Lithium Flower

Providing people to legal and safe abortions means that people who would have wanted to get abortions - regardless of its legality - are at least not fucking themselves over in the process.

(Wait, are we FORCED to choose between gay or straight now? The original questions was if which is worse off and why, which I answered. )

Lithium Flower

I guess if we are doing this exciting new meme then my answer is a coinflip. How is that?

ItsChon

I fucked up the scenario a bit. Imagine we're in the SJW paradise with no biases, and the whole gays can't have kids thing isn't an issue. This time it's your son that's gay or straight. Through CRISPR or w/e, the doctor tells you that your son will be born gay. You have the option to turn him straight or to leave him as is, what are you picking?

ItsChon

If it's a coin flip, than I imagine you wouldn't bother changing your son from gay to straight than?

Lithium Flower

I leave it as is. If the doctor told me he'd be born straight, I'd also leave it like that.