What game are you wasting time on?

[Sceptic]

Hmm, I wasn't aware Sceptic and spekkio had a falling out.

Neither was I, until he called me a moron *shrug*

Multiple ways is also quite the euphemism considering most of them ended up with just shooting anything anyway (in levels that would turn out rather corridorish in the long run, too), and praising its *reliance on stealth* has to be a joke considering how barebones it is, and how absolutely unreliable it is given all the enemies' telescopic eyesights.

I'm not a huge fan of "pure combat" or "pure stealth" or "pure diplomat" paths in games. I like games that go for a more mixed route where you can stealth for a bit, use some fun gadgets, then take out your guns for the last part, etc. NOLF 1 let you do that, and it usually let you do it at your own pace - you want to try stealthing you could, and when you got tired of the telescopic AI you just charged guns blazing. NOLF 2 felt more compartmentalized - this is the stealth level, this is the respawning enemies level, this is the tricycle shooting gallery, this is the boss fight in the tornado trailer.... As I said earlier I love the set pieces, but I missed the fact that the first game didn't rely on them as much. YMMV.

I want to keep killing bad dudes in Doom / Quake from the very beginning to an end. It's fun. It's a challenge. Same with Unreal, SoF, etc. but also games like SS2 or Deus Ex (kill / loot / use loot to kill moar baddies in new ways).
In FarCry it just feels like a chore - so I killed 50 identical soldiers. Now let's hike some more and kill another 100 and maybe blow up some buggy / helicopter. Wheee.

At its best, in its good levels (namely the ones that don't have mutants, but you didn't get that far anyway) Far Cry isn't about piling up a high body count, it's about accomplishing your specific objective. There are several paths and several ways to accomplish your objectives. The most boring, most tedious, least interesting, least fun way to do this is by going out of your way to kill every soldier on the map.

And it's just fun from there on. I don't remember early levels of Unreal being THAT bad.

Unreal doesn't really start picking up until the water temple, which is 6 or 7 levels in.

In NOLF1? In VTMB - sure. Deus Ex 1 - why not (within sections / levels). But nolf1? You just get mission after mission

Oh FFS not this shit again.
Linearity within the same level. I don't give two fucks that Doom throws level after level - it doesn't make E3M6 a linear level and it doesn't turn the game into a fucking corridor shooter.

Now Thief - that's a different story...

Thief isn't a shooter with stealth elements, it's a stealth game with barely any shooting elements. Comparing it to anything else is nonsensical.

And who's claiming otherwise?

Nolf 2 > Nolf 1

Moaran.

Spoiler

 

[Clockwork Knight]

Demon's Souls - doing well so far, Temple Knight's halberd is awesome for crowd control. I get killed when I get cocky and retarded (rushing an isolated guy that is obviously trouble, getting close to a fucking dragon), but as long as I remember to peek around corners I'm usually safe.

 

[Markman]

I picked up AC4 again doing derpy shit and getting owned by other boats in like 2 strikes unless I cheesed it out with mortars and some shit. Turns out I was in "hard" area most of the time, just noticed that the whole half of the top side of the map is "easy" difficulty. Im a already bit tired of it tho, using fast travel where possible unless I need some shit for upgrades.
Dont think I'll finish it tho.

Also Watch dogs. Found it cheap for 6 euros so I was like, why the fuck not. Played for 2 hours, what I can say is that it seems buggy? Seems mission triggers activate random glitches and you never know if you're gonna get one. Like a whole town of invisible people but still got their clothes on. P funny watching a suit talking to a floating cellphone.
Follows the Ubisoft game design guidelines like Farcry and AC series with "activity" sections, side missions, collectible grind etc.
Impressions so far = meh.

 

[Carrion]

NOLF2 is better than NOLF1 in some ways (like stealth, some of the weaponry, some open-ended levels like the mission in Siberia), but it's much worse in some other areas. The level design is more inconsistent and the game recycles the same levels over and over again (those same few streets in India are used like half-a-dozen times and there's a lot of pure filler elsewhere in the game as well). The writing is much worse than in the first game and the story is terrible compared to the first one, as the entire first half of the game consists of just running around the world hunting for pieces of paper that then send you to someplace else hunting for another piece of paper, and when things finally get going it's all downhill from there, one-way trip to retardoland. You could just cut some of those levels off completely or change their order and the story wouldn't change one bit. The humour sometimes works and sometimes doesn't, and although the game has some piss-your-pants-laughing moments, it also misses its mark occasionally. In general the game's just not that creative, which sounds kind of wrong when you compare it to most other shooters, but the first game just set the bar pretty high. For example, the gadgets are completely unimaginative and mostly have just one use save for that one lame super gun that stuns people, kills robots, disables cameras and probably also stimulates Cate's clitoris with the correct ammunition, the story is shit as mentioned, many of the locations are somewhat uninteresting James Bond Bad Guy lairs, and pretty much all of the best characters are taken straight from the first game.

The first NOLF1 is one of the best, most varied, most fun(ny) and most tasteful post-HL shooters there is, and it stays consistently awesome throughout its length. NOLF2 is a much shorter game that manages to capture some glimpses of that but overall has too much filler and stupid to be anywhere near the quality of the first game. Both are very good games, though, and I'd probably take them over the first Far Cry.

 

[spekkio]

NOLF2 this, NOLF2 that.

Yeah yeah, whate...

Both are very good games, though, and I'd probably take them over the first Far Cry.

 

[spekkio]

Also stop the lies, embrace the truth... NOLF1 > NOLF 2

And who's claiming otherwise?

ghostdawg & scepticfag:



I swear to DU I've read Roxor's post as:

Nolf 1 > Nolf 2
This is an objective truth.

Hence my answer:

Yeah, but I've already played 1 but not 2.

Per check failed, I guess. Also, blame Roxor’s faggotry.

I'm not a huge fan of "pure combat" or "pure stealth" or "pure diplomat" paths in games. I like games that go for a more mixed route where you can stealth for a bit, use some fun gadgets, then take out your guns for the last part, etc. NOLF 1 let you do that, and it usually let you do it at your own pace

'k, though I don't remember NOLF1 being such a good example of this. To me, it's 99% shooter and things you wrote about I would rather connect to games like Deus Ex. YMMV and all that, I guess.

There are several paths and several ways to accomplish your objectives. The most boring, most tedious, least interesting, least fun way to do this is by going out of your way to kill every soldier on the map.

That's my main gripe with the game. IMO all these paths / ways are equally boring / tedious / not interesting. Let's say I decided to be stealthy. First, slow movement around open areas is BSB in this game. Now, the moment my fag is spotted, all nearby enemies turn hostile / auto-aim / aggro / etc. So, I can either face them (which IMO isn't fun due to things I mentioned earlier - cheating AI sniping you from great distances / through obstacles, etc.) or... what? Restart from latest savepoint? Now compare FarCry to games like Deus Ex where you can run away, use ranged weapons effectively (sniper rifle!), hack turrets, robots, etc. or Thief, where enemies will stop following you after some time, so combat isn't the only choice when you're discovered (traps, luring enemies into burricks dens, etc).

Unreal doesn't really start picking up until the water temple, which is 6 or 7 levels in.

Care for some explanation / points, because so far it sounds p. pompous. "BROS, I happen to be an expert, early Unreal levels are shit, well... because I didn’t like them".

Linearity within the same level. I don't give two fucks that Doom throws level after level - it doesn't make E3M6 a linear level and it doesn't turn the game into a fucking corridor shooter.

So, it's not about open-ended gameplay, but about... non-linear level design? OK, so it's about:

A game level or world can be linear or nonlinear. In a game with linear levels, there is only one route that the player must take through the level. In games with nonlinear levels, players might have to revisit locations or choose from multiple paths to finish the level.

As with other game elements, linear level design is not absolute. While a nonlinear level can give the freedom to explore or backtrack, there can be a sequence of challenges that a player must solve to complete the level. If a player must confront the challenges in a fixed order nonlinear games will often give multiple approaches to achieve said objectives.

I don't remember NOLF1 having things like 2-3 non-sequential objectives, which you can complete in any order you want (present in games like tWitcher, VTMB or Thief). I do remember non-linear level architecture (not one single, long corridor, like in newshit shooters), but that's it as far as non-linearity / open end goes. Maybe I've forgotten STH, sorry in adv.

Thief isn't a shooter with stealth elements, it's a stealth game with barely any shooting elements. Comparing it to anything else is nonsensical.

BRO, I was referring to your claim:

NOLF1 = reliance on stealth

I don't think this game relies on stealth. At all. You can't make a totally stealthy (what does it actually mean is another story, BTW: avoiding enemies? making them unconscious instead of killing them?) approach, like in Thief, Dishonored or Splinter Cell. NOLF1 IMO plays and feels like FPS: pop the moles before they pop you. Even "shooters with stealth elements" (Dishonored, Deus Ex) have gameplay significantly different than NOLF1 (sections where you're either underpowered, so have to be stealthy to survive or performing some "undercover" mission - enemies won't turn hostile as long as you keep your cover). In most cases you can ignore this and go guns blazing, as long as you l33t enough (which often means close to impossible) plus it punishes you with less EXP or worse rating.
You said that you prefer different approach, when the game allows you to use stealth when / if you want, where you can "do it at your own pace". Ok, but that means such game doesn’t rely on stealth. It only allows more / less stealthy approach for fun or stuffies. Exactly like NOLF1 does.

tl;dr

I simply didn't like FarCry, is this really such a mortal sin?

Spoiler

Of course, I didn't like it, because the game is shit and people who like it have shitty taste in games and should be fucking send to gulags.

^

 

[Minttunator]

After about 500 hours in Path of Exile I'm finally starting to feel bored (what a great game, though!). Good thing, too, since there are several games from the 2014 incline wave that I haven't gotten around to yet - next in line is probably Wasteland 2.

 

[ERYFKRAD]

Skyrim+Requiem. It's not gonna solve the boring quests, but at least dungeon crawling takes effort now.

 

[Grunker]

Still playing Mandate of Heaven. Not using any hints and can't remember the game properly, so I'm stuck lacking some pretty basic shit currently even though I'm getting a bit into the game now.

 

[Carrion]

I don't think this game relies on stealth. At all. You can't make a totally stealthy (what does it actually mean is another story, BTW: avoiding enemies? making them unconscious instead of killing them?) approach, like in Thief, Dishonored or Splinter Cell.

I think stealth in NOLF mainly comes down to not setting off alarms, which is possible in most missions. Staying out of the line of sight of the enemies and taking them out one by one with silenced headshots without their buddies realizing what's happening is pretty satisfying. Knocking enemies unconscious isn't really a valid option when even the karate chop is lethal (although you do get a couple of useful yet very limited perfumes later on), and ghosting is usually not possible because of the placement of the enemies. You can use coins to lure them away and so on, but that only helps in very specific situations. I've always felt that the game was mainly designed to be played stealthily until you set off an alarm (which is likely to happen sooner rather than later), after which you'll grab your submachine gun and turn the place into a slaughterhouse. Stealth itself is of course very basic and simply comes down to staying out of sight and not running on metal surfaces (which aren't that common), but it works well enough for that purpose.

NOLF2, on the other hand, is notably more suited to a non-lethal approach and in some cases even ghosting, as it's possible to stun enemies in various ways, use traps, hide bodies, hide in shadows and use sound more effectively to distract guards, and the levels usually have more hiding places and alternate routes for avoiding enemies. Even the pacing of the game is slower, as you need to search containers and bodies for stuff rather than being able to just run through the levels, which gives it more of a stealth/spy game feel (although Cate Archer is obviously not a spy but an operative regardless of what the title of the game says). They clearly wanted to flesh out the stealth part a bit more. It's no Thief but it's pretty fun nonetheless.

 

[Sceptic]

'k, though I don't remember NOLF1 being such a good example of this. To me, it's 99% shooter and things you wrote about I would rather connect to games like Deus Ex. YMMV and all that, I guess.

Perhaps I shouldn't have used "reliance", my own personal playstyle relies on stealth/avoidance/gadgets, but the game doesn't, not in the sense that you can't go full shooter, and unlike Deus Ex doing so doesn't really affect anything else in the game. But then as I said I always play games that allow this kind of mix and matching of approaches as a jack-of-all-trades, and it's what makes these games the most for me. Anyway I don't particularly want to pursue the 1 vs 2 argument, especially since I happen to like NOLF 2 quite a bit (albeit, as I said earlier, not for the same reasons I like NOLF 1). They're both good games.

Care for some explanation / points, because so far it sounds p. pompous. "BROS, I happen to be an expert, early Unreal levels are shit, well... because I didn’t like them".

Funny accusation coming out of you, considering the entire argument started (and seemingly ends) with "I simply didn't like FarCry, is this really such a mortal sin?"

I don't particularly feel like arguing for the Nth time what I like about Unreal and what I dislike about its early levels. The early levels ARE the tutorial. Crouch here. Jump here. This is your first open area (of course not TOO open, this is still the tutorial). This is your first enemy. This is another indoor area. Oh hey! introduction to scripts! lights are gonna turn off and when they come back on there's gonna be an enemy waiting! isn't that exciting! bet you didn't expect that did ya!

This was the year after Half-Life, and I REALLY don't want to go back to why I dislike that game and its overreliance on scripts and linearity. I don't like games where, the second the first light goes off, I know in what succession they will turn off, exactly how long they'll stay off before coming back on, and what will be waiting for me when they come back on. This is the kind of predictability that I find boring. Early Unreal levels was pretty much made of this. I abandoned the game a couple of times during these levels because all I could think of was ugh, not this shit again. One of the best decisions I ever made in gaming was deciding to stick longer at that third playthrough.

Maybe that's why I'm bitching at you about FC, because you approached it exactly the way I did Unreal, and I expect you if you stick to FC to love it as much as you do Unreal. An unreasonable assumption no doubt, so I won't suggest you do, because it's more likely you still won't like FC.

So, it's not about open-ended gameplay, but about... non-linear level design?

Where did the dichotomy come from? Non-linear level design creates open-ended gameplay. Anyway I'm not going to argue Wikipedia semantics (if there's one thing you should know if you used to like my posts, which you implied you did earlier, is that the #1 way to get me to go all "fuck this shit I'm out of here", it's to bring up a Wikipedia "definition"). It seems like you understood what I meant (non-linear level architecture, as well as possibility of using different approaches, even if you don't agree with that last one).

BRO, I was referring to your claim:

I addressed this above, but you're right, "reliance" was not the right word.

I simply didn't like FarCry, is this really such a mortal sin?

I never objected to that, but to your specific arguments for disliking it in that original post. Anyway your thoughts and what you like about NOLF make a clearer case for why you don't like FC, and one that I can understand even if I don't agree about the game's quality. I do agree that the lack of real saving was rage-worthy (and almost made me quit). I love the game because no other FPS before (and only STALKER, specifically COP, has since) offered this kind of huge open-ended maps where you could literally go "ok, now where to, and how do I get there?" Level 14, that I mentioned earlier, is simply one of the best maps I have ever played in any FPS. That alone is enough to atone for the game's horrible corridor levels (and boy were these bad.... and you thought the first 2 levels were bad), its underdeveloped stealth, and the lack of saving. I've said this before, if a game does something sublimely wel it will automatically get "great game" status even if it does other things wrong. It's why I like Prey, it's why I gave MMX such a glowing recommendation (despite spending half the review ripping it to shreds), hell it's why I love Unreal as much as I do. It's why I don't do or believe in final scores - they'd never match my actual recommendation.

 

[murloc_gypsy]

Started playing Neverwinter a couple of days back. Pretty fun so far. The combat is tons more fun than World of Warcraft, for starters. The lore and quests are pretty neat too. Read a bit about the business model and got worried it's gonna ruin the fun but nothing so far. Waiting for the Christmas break to get to do some serious "immersive" gaming with the recent incline releases.

 

[Perkel]

Assetto Corsa with my G25 (not my video though)

 

[dnf]

The thing:

NPC mechanics are botched.

 

[Ninja Destroyer]

I really liked the beginning of Far Cry. You're tossed into an island and have to move towards some objective while having a big open world to explore. The astonishing graphics for it's time, really good AI of enemies, and stability of the engine made it enjoyable experience. Too bad that it's all wasted where Crytek introduces us to filthy mutants. Although it gave me some funny jump scares a couple of times. I wouldn't call FC a very "classic" game, but it's worth at least one playthrough.
As for the NOLF 1 >< 2 debate I always end up playing both of them. Contract J.a.c.k. on the other hand was a horrible cash grab and had a gameplay more similar to Serious Sam than the adventures of Kate Archer. Avoid it like a plague.

 

[Grunker]

The thing:

NPC mechanics are botched.

 

[Perkel]

Liked it and i actually liked this mechanic where you didn't know who will change

 

[adddeed]

I also really enjoyed The Thing. But then again im a sucker for games where you're roaming about in some isolated and abandoned station/complex kind of thing. AvP, Dead Space etc.

 

[Grunker]

I also really enjoyed The Thing. But then again im a sucker for games where you're roaming about in some isolated and abandoned station/complex kind of thing. AvP, Dead Space etc.

Can't recall the name of it but there's a The Thing-like video game on a boat that's very similar to it.

 

[DramaticPopcorn]

Well, there is Cold Fear which had a decent atmosphere for the good first part of the game. Went to shit later on and gameplay was pretty popamole but eh.

 

[Grunker]

Cold Fear, that's the one! Didn't like it much but it fills put the criteria adddeed talked about nicely.

 

[Perkel]

Why i though about Syberia after i saw The Thing game ?
Probably my conscience trying to make me finish it finally after all those yars (fuck that russian part)


edit:
Now that i think about it how cool would be game like that with rift

 

[Carrion]

The Thing has a bunch of really good ideas that just aren't executed very well. The NPC mechanics are awesome in theory, probably the best thing about the game, but in practice you'll just hang out with your squad mates until they turn into raging monsters,

Spoiler

which will always happen, so you'd better not even test them for infection because then you might lose them a bit earlier than you would otherwise

and you'll usually be with them for such a short while that you don't need to manage their mental health all that carefully. Although the atmosphere is pretty good at times, as a horror game it's a total failure from the moment the first "monster" is introduced, which is too bad considering that the shooting isn't any fun either. I also hated how the game lacked such a basic thing as proper mouse controls, which more or less killed the game for me.

 

[Machocruz]

I tried to stealth the Berlin mission in NoLF1. It's doable, but not worth the time, effort and reloads. Took me hours to do it. It's just not well designed for complete non-detection, more trial and error than any Thief game.

Oddly enough, I've been playing Far Cry: Blood Dragon, and it has similar issues. I found it much more feasible to stealth outposts and missions in FC3 than this. The enemy placement in BD isn't conducive to stealth it in a lot of cases. It's a better game than FC3, but who the hell thought it was a good idea to have the outdoors constantly bathed in red-violet hues? It becomes unpleasant after a while.

 

[spekkio]

Funny accusation coming out of you, considering the entire argument started (and seemingly ends) with "I simply didn't like FarCry, is this really such a mortal sin?"

BRO, at least I explained WHY I didn't like the game (like 3 times)...

What I like about Unreal and what I dislike about its early levels. The early levels ARE the tutorial. Crouch here. Jump here. This is your first open area (of course not TOO open, this is still the tutorial). This is your first enemy. This is another indoor area. Oh hey! introduction to scripts! lights are gonna turn off and when they come back on there's gonna be an enemy waiting! isn't that exciting! bet you didn't expect that did ya!

AFAIR this was only (mostly?) present during the initial part inside the ship + first open area. You wrote that "Unreal doesn't really start picking up until the water temple, which is 6 or 7 levels in" - I wouldn't agree. I started enjoying the game... probably the moment I realized how good / demanding (but fair!) AI is. Level design got better in later levels indeed, I fully agree with you here.

Maybe that's why I'm bitching at you about FC, because you approached it exactly the way I did Unreal, and I expect you if you stick to FC to love it as much as you do Unreal.

Well, I can’t say I love Unreal, I’m more of a System Shock / Deus Ex guy...
But in case of Unreal I liked the gameplay right from the beginning (except these green motherfuckers popping up down from ceilings – fuck those). And the gameplay stayed good throughout the game. Now in case of FarCry I hated the gameplay from the beginning, and what you wrote assures me, that the gameplay stays the same in later parts.

If there's one thing you should know if you used to like my posts, which you implied you did earlier, is that the #1 way to get me to go all "fuck this shit I'm out of here", it's to bring up a Wikipedia "definition"

I do agree that the lack of real saving was rage-worthy (and almost made me quit)

horrible corridor levels (and boy were these bad.... and you thought the first 2 levels were bad), its underdeveloped stealth

Spoiler

I've said this before, if a game does something sublimely well it will automatically get "great game" status even if it does other things wrong.

It's why I like Prey

Prey was fucking awesome indeed (except robo-girlfriends, of course), fuck 'Dex haters.

It's why I don't do or believe in final scores - they'd never match my actual recommendation.

tl;dr

No homo.