What crpg has the best exploration aspect?

[V_K]

Crusaders of Khazan? The Tunnels and Trolls game?

Anyone want to expand on this? I skipped it because I heard the combat wasn't stellar.

Personally I found combat pretty solid. Not a combatfag's wet dream, but there are enough tactical options to keep things interesting.
Though the real strength of the game is that it's based on a number of printed single-player modules for T&T PnP system, thus there's a ton (you get one every few steps, basically) of unique encounters, each with lots of possible choices, skillchecks and outcomes. And on top of that there's a huge open world with no hand-holding whatsoever, not even a succession of main quest stages - you just explore every nook and cranny in search for clues to achieve you ultimate goal (which is the usual "defeat the big foozle", but still). As a result the game manages to be quite story-heavy and extremely open-ended at the same time.

 

[Crooked Bee]

The unique encounters are for the most part also really entertaining, imaginative, and well-written.

 

[DraQ]

This was a great total conversion mod, the world felt larger and exploration was more immersive because it didn't have to load a new cel just to enter a town (similar to Gothic 1/2/3). Gothic and Gothic 2 are far superior to Morrowind in many respects, I always laugh when people can't play Gothic 1 because of the controls, so casul.

Sorry, but the only games for which I ever broke my personal rule of "If you cannot into proper controls/configuration you're not worth my time - GTFO" were SS1 and TN:SFC and they were still a fucking pain to play (at least there exists a mouselook patch for SS1 which inclines it several-fold despite being just an interface hack lacking actual gameplay changes).

 

[*-*/\--/\~]

Morrowind. The unique art direction, music I loved from the first moment, written (and sometimes pretty approximate) directions to your goals... makes me want to shoot the "Cant find Caius Cosades, dis gaem sux!" consoletards, as their moronic feedback probably made the devs drop this model.
Followed by the usual Might&Magic, Fallout 1-2, BG... and Ultima Underworld, loved exploring that huge dungeon as a kid... though I may be biased, as it was my first proper RPG.

Can't get my head around why people like the "exploration" in later Craphesda titles... you could just as well stick a pencil into the random generation tables blindly with the same result, getting generic random-generated, level-scaled stuff.

 

[Sordid MCA/Prosper Hybryd]

I always laugh when people can't play Gothic 1 because of the controls, so casul.

Fuckin' THIS!

 

[octavius]

To me Morrowid is the apex of exploration in games, the lack of navigation help other than compass and map, geting written directions in very humane way to know where to go and the fantasy and art direction of the different regions made me really feel awed at several discoveries in the game like no other game has ever, not even remotely, made me do so.

You can do that in modded Oblivion too, and probably Skyrim too. While their landscapes are not so exciting, the later TES games do have the advantage of being more dynamic and you don't just discover places and loot, but also encounters: other characters and monsters moving and interacting.
Exploring Morrowind is like exploring a beautiful moment frozen in time.

 

[octavius]

I always laugh when people can't play Gothic 1 because of the controls, so casul.

I could if I would, but there were so many other great games back then, so I could afford the luxury of not making the effort.

 

[SwiftCrack]

Baldur's Gate 1 on my first play-through and Morrowind.

Shame on me: Fallout 3 and New Vegas too.

 

[DraQ]

Can someone explain to me again what's so hot about where did they find any exploration in BG1?

"Exploring" the wilderness in BG1 was effectively conducted using following procedure:

• move around the map in simple pattern (rectangular spiral worked nicely, but sometimes needed adjustments due to impassable terrain) to remove fog of war or confine it to impassable areas
  
• wave mouse around as you're moving trying to eventually cover the entire map area to highlight hotspots masquerading as generic repeated scenery objects - click on any hotspots found
• when passing near an edge of the map for the first time click on it to unlock any new areas for fast travel
• go to first area you haven't visited
• repeat

How could any one consider it not just interesting but actual gameplay is something I find utterly incomprehensible and HPL or possibly even Solaris-grade alien.

 

[DragoFireheart]

Can someone explain to me again what's so hot about where did they find any exploration in BG1?

"Exploring" the wilderness in BG1 was effectively conducted using following procedure:

• move around the map in simple pattern (rectangular spiral worked nicely, but sometimes needed adjustments due to impassable terrain) to remove fog of war or confine it to impassable areas
  
• wave mouse around as you're moving trying to eventually cover the entire map area to highlight hotspots masquerading as generic repeated scenery objects - click on any hotspots found
• when passing near an edge of the map for the first time click on it to unlock any new areas for fast travel
• go to first area you haven't visited
• repeat

How could any one consider it not just interesting but actual gameplay is something I find utterly incomprehensible and HPL or possibly even Solaris-grade alien.

I think for a first time play through it might be fun, but not on subsequent play throughs. The wilderness areas are simply not interesting enough to fully explore and none of them lead to any neat dungeons.

 

[SwiftCrack]

Can someone explain to me again what's so hot about where did they find any exploration in BG1?

"Exploring" the wilderness in BG1 was effectively conducted using following procedure:

• move around the map in simple pattern (rectangular spiral worked nicely, but sometimes needed adjustments due to impassable terrain) to remove fog of war or confine it to impassable areas
  
• wave mouse around as you're moving trying to eventually cover the entire map area to highlight hotspots masquerading as generic repeated scenery objects - click on any hotspots found
• when passing near an edge of the map for the first time click on it to unlock any new areas for fast travel
• go to first area you haven't visited
• repeat

How could any one consider it not just interesting but actual gameplay is something I find utterly incomprehensible and HPL or possibly even Solaris-grade alien.

This is a perfect example of when keeping it real goes too far.

Do (did) you have any sense of exploration and imagination at all?

There is a reason I listed it as first play-through.

 

[buzz]

My absolute favorite games exploration-wise are Starflight, Darklands and Ambermoon. I also like the exploration in Betrayal at Krondor though that's not really the reason I replay it.

 

[DragoFireheart]

Shame on me: Fallout 3

 

[DraQ]

Can someone explain to me again what's so hot about where did they find any exploration in BG1?

"Exploring" the wilderness in BG1 was effectively conducted using following procedure:

• move around the map in simple pattern (rectangular spiral worked nicely, but sometimes needed adjustments due to impassable terrain) to remove fog of war or confine it to impassable areas
  
• wave mouse around as you're moving trying to eventually cover the entire map area to highlight hotspots masquerading as generic repeated scenery objects - click on any hotspots found
• when passing near an edge of the map for the first time click on it to unlock any new areas for fast travel
• go to first area you haven't visited
• repeat

How could any one consider it not just interesting but actual gameplay is something I find utterly incomprehensible and HPL or possibly even Solaris-grade alien.

This is a perfect example of when keeping it real goes too far.

Do (did) you have any sense of exploration and imagination at all?

I can still keep my imagination going on finding hidden little details and information hidden beneath broken and clunky surface of Morrowind, so long after its release,
while I'll also consider PS:T one of the most immersive games I've ever played due to evocative descriptions.

Does it answer your question?

It's just that exploration in BG1 was so fucking robotic and soulless.

 

[pippin]

Exploring in BG1 could be not as good after your first playthrough because you have an idea of where are the things you're looking for. Reaching the city is always cool, though.
Also, I guess exploring in FO3 could be fun when you completely avoided the main story and quests. Finding places like the Bethesda Ruins or that cemetery (as well as finding my way through that metro system) felt more rewarding than the actual game itself.
Should we give credit to Deus Ex? Although the whole game was more or less linear, the exploration was there for actual reasons closely related to gameplay mechanics, and not because for having one more thing to put in the back of the box.

 

[Visperas]

I think that what the OP wanted to know, at least after the numerous examples, is what makes a great exploration. For me it's interesting scenery, a certain degree of dificulty to find some of the interesting points and a some kind of reward, preferably something not found in the stores in town. My memory is shit so I can't recall any examples but my personal favorites were Gothic 1 & 2. New Vegas and Fallout 3 in a smaller degree and Dark Souls in a very different yet very awesome way.

 

[DraQ]

I think for a first time play through it might be fun, but not on subsequent play throughs. The wilderness areas are simply not interesting enough to fully explore and none of them lead to any neat dungeons.

The main problem with BG exploration is that it completely lacked player involvement.
There was no moments where, through sheer perception or ability to associate facts you could think "that's odd..." then investigate and find something.
It was all just going through motions - wave your mouse around, then flash of teal outline and voila! treasurr found.
Contrast with Morrowind, Stalker or even Skyrim where you could catch glimpse of some seemingly unreachable location and could figure your way in, or notice an object concealed against background (although never actually invisible).
Contrast with old FPSes, System Shock 1 or tile based crawlers where part of the game was mentally mapping out the area's layout to figure out hidden rooms and passages.
contrast with PS:T where you could find stuff (although not necessarily physically) through saying the right things or doing the right things in the right place.

What I refer to as "true" exploration is that moment of "Eureka!" followed by doing the right actually finding stuff that, had you not had such a moment of insight, would have remained hidden with you being none the wiser - BG1 had no such thing, finding stuff was 100% reliant on your cursor passing over the exact right group of pixels not standing out in any way, no matter how subtle.

Should we give credit to Deus Ex?

Absolutely.

 

[belowmecoldhands]

Morrowind. Obviously, it's a rich tapestry of quests, characters, politics, lore and places.

Unlike some here, I enjoy exploring the places in Daggerfall. I know they're procedurally generated, but I still enjoy to visit a town and look at the names of things and "feel at home". There're also tons of books and factions and gods (mainly lore stuff) to learn about. As well, the #^%^! dungeons are fun if you don't fall into the void, crash and/or forget to save.

I guess any game which is hard and deep system-wise is an exploration. Although I tend to like dungeon-crawling more than complicated dialogue trees. I couldn't get over how everytime I discovered a new area in Fallout, I had to talk to everyone or be careful what I did becuase I didn't want to screw up something like faction or a questline. That's my own opinion though.

Want to add I hate minimaps and radars and automatic glowing stuff in newer MMOs/RPGs. I wonder if most explorer-types are like that or if it's just a trait of older gamers like myself who grew up on games without those things? Usually I just chock it up to wanting immersion, but I think different gamers coin it differently. Being an old gamer is the most likely explanation.

 

[JarlFrank]

This was a great total conversion mod, the world felt larger and exploration was more immersive because it didn't have to load a new cel just to enter a town (similar to Gothic 1/2/3). Gothic and Gothic 2 are far superior to Morrowind in many respects, I always laugh when people can't play Gothic 1 because of the controls, so casul.

Sorry, but the only games for which I ever broke my personal rule of "If you cannot into proper controls/configuration you're not worth my time - GTFO" were SS1 and TN:SFC and they were still a fucking pain to play (at least there exists a mouselook patch for SS1 which inclines it several-fold despite being just an interface hack lacking actual gameplay changes).

Gothic's controls aren't even that horrible tho.

 

[belowmecoldhands]

This was a great total conversion mod, the world felt larger and exploration was more immersive because it didn't have to load a new cel just to enter a town (similar to Gothic 1/2/3). Gothic and Gothic 2 are far superior to Morrowind in many respects, I always laugh when people can't play Gothic 1 because of the controls, so casul.

Sorry, but the only games for which I ever broke my personal rule of "If you cannot into proper controls/configuration you're not worth my time - GTFO" were SS1 and TN:SFC and they were still a fucking pain to play (at least there exists a mouselook patch for SS1 which inclines it several-fold despite being just an interface hack lacking actual gameplay changes).

Gothic's controls aren't even that horrible tho.

Comparable to Daggerfall's?? Can you change the keys configuration?

Bad thing about Daggerfall is you can't make Alt/Ctrl/Shift combinations with other keys in the controls configuration. Otherwise, it has a mouse-controlled view which when combined with the keys is VERY easy and I find to be modern and more natural. Although I've never really been a big fan of "swinging" weapons with the mouse - is there a trick to it?

The Alt/Ctrl/Shift thing is a big thing to me. I also don't like info/steal/talk/grab modes and how it works.

I think I've read Gothic II is hte best of the series. I'll confess I downloaded a demo for one of them a while back. I was attracted to it because I read the non-players will do things on their own- like in Risen/Oblivion/Skyrim.

 

[Lilura]

Dungeon exploration-wise, Durlag's Tower of Baldur's Gate is easily one of the best I ever experienced. The puzzles, the lore, the combat, the need to scout ahead, the deadly traps, the variety of motifs each lvl... the atmosphere of paranoia - overall a top class dungeon crawl.

 

[DraQ]

Unlike some here, I enjoy exploring the places in Daggerfall.

I didn't enjoy them much due to their repetitive and often nonsensical nature, but I can see why someone could not so much enjoy them but be actually enamored with them.
They did make good use of one's spatial skills too.

Gothic's controls aren't even that horrible tho.

How horrible given controls are often depends on many factors, including player's handedness and gameplay habits, such as reliance on mlook. A game with non-remappable WSAD movement or even WSAD movement replicated on the cursors, but with all the vital controls clustered around WSAD and non-remappable will probably feel ok if you're right hander, but will be fucking pain if you're a southpaw.
Similarly I wasn't bothered by lack of mouselook back when I was unskilled player starting playing DOS FPSes as my movement skills, let alone simultaneous aiming and movement were pretty much nonexistant, but now that I'm proficient, lack of mouselook is just grating and turning around with KB alone is just plain cumbersome - thankfully anything from Build onwards tends to support mlook natively and there are sourceports for Doom engine and interface hacks for System Shock 1.
Bottom line is that malleable controls are pretty much industry standard and there is absolutely no valid reason why a game, especially a game released after the end of DOS era, when creating basic controls for your game was no longer a matter of fumbling around in the dark, wouldn't have them.

Comparable to Daggerfall's?? Can you change the keys configuration?

Daggerfall's controls are an example of it done right. They are almost unplayable in default state, but in a minute or two you can set them up to be anything you want, an equivalent of modern FPS control scheme with mlook and everything included.

Bad thing about Daggerfall is you can't make Alt/Ctrl/Shift combinations with other keys in the controls configuration. Otherwise, it has a mouse-controlled view which when combined with the keys is VERY easy and I find to be modern and more natural. Although I've never really been a big fan of "swinging" weapons with the mouse - is there a trick to it?

How do you use modifier keys when already handling a mouse and KB anyway?
Swinging is just swinging - hold mouse button and move mouse.

The Alt/Ctrl/Shift thing is a big thing to me.

And that's case in point when it comes to customizability being essential - because personally I don't care about Alt/Ctrl/Shift, at least not in a 3D game where I move around with my KB, yet someone else may consider them vital.

 

[laclongquan]

Dungeon exploration-wise, Durlag's Tower of Baldur's Gate is easily one of the best I ever experienced. The puzzles, the lore, the combat, the need to scout ahead, the deadly traps, the variety of motifs each lvl... the atmosphere of paranoia - overall a top class dungeon crawl.

I dont know about top class but I completed that expansion twice and none at all with the main game.

No one mention NWN2 Storm of Zehyr yet? It's got the exploration down pat. I have my trouble with that expansion, but that aspect is done well, if not perfected.

 

[Lhynn]

This was a great total conversion mod, the world felt larger and exploration was more immersive because it didn't have to load a new cel just to enter a town (similar to Gothic 1/2/3). Gothic and Gothic 2 are far superior to Morrowind in many respects, I always laugh when people can't play Gothic 1 because of the controls, so casul.

Sorry, but the only games for which I ever broke my personal rule of "If you cannot into proper controls/configuration you're not worth my time - GTFO" were SS1 and TN:SFC and they were still a fucking pain to play (at least there exists a mouselook patch for SS1 which inclines it several-fold despite being just an interface hack lacking actual gameplay changes).

Gothic's controls aren't even that horrible tho.

Ive had nightmares involving Gothics controls.

 

[DraQ]

One more thing regarding BG1 exploration:

This is a perfect example of when keeping it real goes too far.

Do (did) you have any sense of exploration and imagination at all?

There is a reason I listed it as first play-through.

You asked me about sense of exploration and imagination (and I have answered, but would like to underline something) - the bottom line is that imagination can't fully supplant content and/or mechanics.
That's LARPing. It's the point where you start playing a game in your head that's completely dissociated from whatever happens on the screen - you might as well be playing notepad.exe .
It's the point where, if you insist you're still playing the game in question, you should probably be put out of your misery because that's the most humane solution.

The problem with BG is that it's mechanics doesn't facilitate exploration in more meaningful sense than you could explore in Glorg.
If I insist that exploration in Glorg (as well as the whole Glorg - at least taken at face value, not that you'd want to play it even facetiously) just plain sucks is it because I lack imagination or is it because it actually does suck?