Vault Dweller vs. Infinitron on Kickstarter, Spikes and Stretch Goals (also dongs)

[Infinitron]

Yeah, saying "we add Pat Rohfuss to the team" is cool for fans and all, but how many of the pledgers even know who the fuck this guy is? Even those who know, wound't they prefer something like an extra PC class than an extra guy doing the writting? MCA comes with batteries an extra NPC, but Pat is just "more text"... is hard to "feel" and get excited for something like this.

If Larian made the changes more visible and exciting, like "choose your PC's race", "have full script control on the editor", "+20 new quests", "we'll send a 'fuck your KS' letter to LB" and the likes, they would defintly gain more attention... perhaps is something for the stretch goals, and they are waiting to be sure that the campaign will succeed before getting too excited...

Funny that you say that. The news of Pat Rothfuss' inclusion actually caused a funding spike. Go ahead, check the graphs.

 

[Infinitron]

They need 2 extra mil to make the story deeper?

YES. Seriously, you need to get over your indie studio myopia, VD. It's ridiculous that somebody like me who has no experience at all has a better grasp of how this shit works. A company like inXile or Obsidian is not like "Iron Tower, but with more people!" These things do not scale up linearly.

Something that many people would want and care about. "More better" is generic as fuck and tells people nothing. Things like the player's house, stronghold, crafting and enchanting, adventurer's hall, paladins and chanters (after Obsidian explained in details what a chanter is people were dying to get one in their party), difficulty modes, etc are very specific things that invoke very specific images. "Deeper" is a buzz word.

So in other words, non-Tormenty shit that the Codex would complain about, including yourself most likely.

You say it like it's a fact. What makes you think that a good KS can only hit 75,000 backers but not a 100,000 or 125,000. Are these outrageous numbers? Is it that hard to agree that the stretch goals aren't exciting and they simply don't drive enough people? That PE's stretch goals offered a lot more, offer things that people wanted, understood, and were excited about it?

It's not a fact, but it's more likely than assuming that there are FIFTY THOUSAND extra oldschool RPG fans waiting in the wings, just begging for a cool stretch goal to appear so they can feel justified in clicking the "Pledge" button. That's a fantasy, VD.

EDIT: Adam Heine sort of addresses this in another thread http://www.rpgcodex.net/forums/inde...hread-ks-now-live.79051/page-145#post-2573279

 

[Darth Roxor]

It's ridiculous that somebody like me who has no experience at all has a better grasp of how this shit work.

:jew:

 

[made]

:jew:

First he took control of the Codex, next he's gonna buy out ITS and show VD how to manage the studio properly.

 

[Vault Dweller]

YES. Seriously, you need to get over your indie studio myopia, VD. It's ridiculous that somebody like me who has no experience at all has a better grasp of how this shit works. A company like inXile or Obsidian is not like "Iron Tower, but with more people!" These things do not scale up linearly.

What's ridiculous is that you're jumping to conclusions before you even read my posts and get that "better grasp" of the context that you're universally famous for. I'm not asking where the money goes. I'm not asking why they need 3+ mil bucks to make the game super deep and reactive. I'm pointing out that "deep, very deep, super deep, crazy deep" are shitty goals as in a poor hook to get people to pledge because you have no idea how deep is 'deep' and what these words really mean.

Now that we've covered that, I'd like to use this opportunity to learn things and broaden my horizons. Do explain "how this shit works". Spare no details.

So in other words, non-Tormenty shit that the Codex would complain about, including yourself most likely.

Reading is teh hard? I explained why Obsidian's goals were better. I didn't say that they should have used them in Torment 2.

It's not a fact, but it's more likely than assuming that there are FIFTY THOUSAND extra oldschool RPG fans waiting in the wings, just begging for a cool stretch goal to appear so they can feel justified in clicking the "Pledge" button. That's a fantasy, VD.

EDIT: Adam Heine sort of addresses this in another thread http://www.rpgcodex.net/forums/inde...hread-ks-now-live.79051/page-145#post-2573279

Addressed what?

I'm offering you very simple arguments:

- Obsidian managed to get 17,000 more backers for PE. This means that there are 17,000 potential customers that inXile failed to get (so far).

- It's unlikely that 74,000 happened to be the highest possible number of people who are interested in IE-style game, isometric RPGs, Torment, Numenera, etc. If you feel that that's the exact count and you have the relevant census data, please provide.

- Torment has poorly thought through stretch goals. Regardless of the reason behind them, "[name] - the story gets even deeper" is simply not enough to generate excitement and pledging frenzy. The names are driving people to pledge but I don't feel it's enough because the ratio of people who give a fuck vs those who don't is very unclear.

- This might come as a shocker, but neither Torment nor other IE games on the Codex top 10 list are old school RPGs.

 

[Infinitron]

- Obsidian managed to get 17,000 more backers for PE. This means that there are 17,000 potential customers that inXile failed to get (so far).

The Kickstarter isn't over yet.

- It's unlikely that 74,000 happened to be the highest possible number of people who are interested in IE-style game, isometric RPGs, Torment, Numenera, etc. If you feel that that's the exact count and you have the relevant census data, please provide.

It's also unlikely that it's very much higher than that. Diminishing returns, look it up!

Each new high profile RPG Kickstarter may get more than the previous one, but increasingly less so. That's how these types of social phenomena generally work. It is the most likely hypothesis.

- Torment has poorly thought through stretch goals. Regardless of the reason behind them, "[name] - the story gets even deeper" is simply not enough to generate excitement and pledging frenzy. The names are driving people to pledge but I don't feel it's enough because the ratio of people who give a fuck vs those who don't is very unclear.

Classic Codex "The grass is always greener in the previous Kickstarter" syndrome. During the Project Eternity Kickstarter everybody was talking about how Wasteland 2's campaign was so much better. Now they're talking about how Project Eternity's campaign was so much better. It never fails.

 

[Vault Dweller]

- It's unlikely that 74,000 happened to be the highest possible number of people who are interested in IE-style game, isometric RPGs, Torment, Numenera, etc. If you feel that that's the exact count and you have the relevant census data, please provide.

It's also unlikely that it's very much higher than that. Diminishing returns, look it up!

Did you just learn a new fucking phrase? Diminishing returns have fucking nothing to do here. It's pure marketing. There are hundreds of thousands of gamers out there who can be lured to KS if the campaign presses the right buttons.

Each new high profile RPG Kickstarter may get more than the previous one, but increasingly less so. That's how these types of social phenomenon generally work. It is the most likely hypothesis.

But it's not how it worked at all so far.

Classic Codex "The grass is always greener in the previous Kickstarter" syndrome. During the Project Eternity Kickstarter everybody was talking about how Wasteland 2's campaign was so much better. Now they're talking about how Project Eternity's campaign was so much better. It never fails.

Must I really state the obvious here?

The first half of the campaign (PE) was weak because Obsidian didn't really believe it would work and just tested the water, being caught by surprise there. It took them a while to get going, but once they did, they did it very well. The second half of the PE campaign was the best I've seen so far and Torment doesn't come close. However, the start of the Torment campaign was fucking phenomenal and was nothing short of a masterpiece.

 

[Monkeyfinger]

sounds to me like torment did what eternity was supposed to do: identify all the strong parts of a pitch and put them up front, instead of starting with a rush job then adding the good content on a drip drip drip basis.

 

[Infinitron]

But it's not how it worked at all so far.

What do you mean, "so far"? We've only had three high profile RPG Kickstarters. The second was more successful than the first. The third was more successful than the second, but by a smaller margin. It fits my hypothesis.

Did you just learn a new fucking phrase? Diminishing returns have fucking nothing to do here. It's pure marketing. There are hundreds of thousands of gamers out there who can be lured to KS if the campaign presses the right buttons.

Says the man who didn't believe the Torment Kickstarter would succeed until I pointed out to him how popular the original PS:T was on GOG.

But hey, keep on believing, bro!

 

[JarlFrank]

Something that many people would want and care about. "More better" is generic as fuck and tells people nothing. Things like the player's house, stronghold, crafting and enchanting, adventurer's hall, paladins and chanters (after Obsidian explained in details what a chanter is people were dying to get one in their party), difficulty modes, etc are very specific things that invoke very specific images. "Deeper" is a buzz word.

So in other words, non-Tormenty shit that the Codex would complain about, including yourself most likely.

No. Take a look at earlier stretch goals:
2.5 Million. George Ziets joins the design team! Gameplay after Death: Castoff's Labyrinth added! New Companion!
3 Million. Number of Legacies increased! Cults added! New Companion! Secret Meres in the Labyrinth!
3.25 Million. Pat Rothfuss joins the design team! ... and nothing else, at least with Ziets and with Lafferty and Evans, there had been some other little things such as "New Area XY added!", with Pat it's just... Pat. No hint as to what exactly he will contribute to the game.

Could've been done better, really.

 

[Vault Dweller]

But it's not how it worked at all so far.

What do you mean, "so far"? We've only had three high profile RPG Kickstarters. The second was more successful than the first. The third was more successful than the second, but by a smaller margin. It fits my hypothesis.

Count again.

Says the man who didn't believe the Torment Kickstarter would succeed...

Exact quote?

Wow. Look at that motherfucking spike. Almost 2,000 extra backers in 2 days.

 

[Infinitron]

Wow. Look at that motherfucking spike. Almost 2,000 extra backers in 2 days.

What about MCA? Since he's such a demigod of a writer, shouldn't he have caused at least as large of a spike as a sweet screenshot or an AWESUM stretch goal? Because he was announced the following day.

Or maybe, just maybe, AWESUM stretch goals aren't the panacea you think they are.

 

[General Maxson]

Well why not use some good advice? Nothing wrong with what VD is saying. They done well, but they could have done better middle campaign, and updates especially if their goal is to get more money and backers. Man learns while he's alive. Maybe their next KS will truly be glorious. :D

It is boring, especially for casuals, when you mention a writers name, and say that you'll expand gameplay and reactivity. If guys were given concrete goals, I also think they would have gotten more funding. I don't know how much more, though.

 

[hiver]

Mca didnt cause much of a spike because his role was explained as very minimal, and everyone took it as a token gesture.

That small spike of 80K was caused by him and Pat Rothfuss together.

btw,
Youre ridiculous Infinitron, but thats as usual when you jump into those crazy conclusions and assumptions.

 

[Vault Dweller]

Wow. Look at that motherfucking spike. Almost 2,000 extra backers in 2 days.

What about MCA? Since he's such a demigod of a writer, shouldn't he have caused at least as large of a spike as a sweet screenshot or an AWESUM stretch goal? Because he was announced the following day.

Or maybe, just maybe, AWESUM stretch goals aren't the panacea you think they are.

[NAME!] goals are getting overused and that includes MCA. I like Chris a lot and think that he's a very talented guy, but I don't give the slightest fuck whether or not he's helping out on Torment, Wasteland, or another game. Lead writer/creative lead, lead designer - that's something. "We get [NAME] to do something, the game grows bigger, fuck yeah!" doesn't do anything for me and judging by that pitiful spike you showed me, not many people do either.

 

[Infinitron]

Wow. Look at that motherfucking spike. Almost 2,000 extra backers in 2 days.

What about MCA? Since he's such a demigod of a writer, shouldn't he have caused at least as large of a spike as a sweet screenshot or an AWESUM stretch goal? Because he was announced the following day.

Or maybe, just maybe, AWESUM stretch goals aren't the panacea you think they are.

[NAME!] goals are getting overused and that includes MCA. I like Chris a lot and think that he's a very talented guy, but I don't give the slightest fuck whether or not he's helping out on Torment, Wasteland, or another game. Lead writer/creative lead, lead designer - that's something. "We get [NAME] to do something, the game grows bigger, fuck yeah!" doesn't do anything for me and judging by that pitiful spike you showed me, not many people do either.

I'm tired of arguing with you. Brother None's post from the Torment thread sums it up:

Adam speaks true as per usual. A Kickstarter of this size is pretty much "set" in the broadest strokes once the first few days are over, and you can extrapolate a lot of its future path from there. At this stage it's hard to "ruin" a campaign as some know-mores would claim we have, and it's equally hard to really stimulate it outside of this curve.

"Exciting" updates aren't gonne cut it unless you have something tangible to show, like adding Chris Avellone, and that takes a lot of work. You can't just magic up announcement like that out of the air, you have to be able to actually promise it, and that means putting in the work (Brian went at getting MCA like ham and got it done, much to our general joy).

Time will tell that I was in the right. In the meantime, brace yourself for more disappointments.

 

[Brother None]

doesn't do anything for me and judging by that pitiful spike you showed me, not many people do either.

You are wrong. That "pitiful spike" is more than Eternity did in any one day in their lull period, for both Pat and Chris. Day 16-17, they did $24K and $22K, compared to Torment Day 16-17 $61K and $86K. You can make whatever claim you like, VD, but it's pretty obvious you have done no research into any of this.

(there Infinitron, you got me to post in this thread, now leave me be ;_; )

 

[Vault Dweller]

Infinitron:

One question. Well, actually two.

1) Do you agree that stretch goals are an important tool used primarily to convert the "watchers" to become the "backers"?
2) If yes, do you feel that the Torment stretch goals are good and well suited for the converting?

 

[Vault Dweller]

doesn't do anything for me and judging by that pitiful spike you showed me, not many people do either.

You are wrong. That "pitiful spike" is more than Eternity did in any one day in their lull period, for both Pat and Chris. You can make whatever claim you like, VD, but it's pretty obvious you have done no research into any of this.

Same questions to you, BN. See above.

 

[Rake]

To Torment's defence, those 17000 extra backers of P:E may not be "old school" fans at all but Obsidian fans. You know, Alpha Protocol, New Vegas fans who put their money in their favorite company. Some of these fans inXile simply cannot get.

 

[Brother None]

1) Do you agree that stretch goals are an important tool used primarily to convert the "watchers" to become the "backers"?
2) If yes, do you feel that the Torment stretch goals are good and well suited for the converting?

Stretch goals are a good tool for both converting watchers into backers and getting people to up their pledge. Their usefulness is limited though.

Torment did a good job with stretch goals. Not perfect, you can always do better, and sure we made some missteps, who doesn't. Not enough actual content? Here is in order what was added: added PC gender, new area, expanded music, new area, new companion, Castoff's Labyrinth, new companion, Reflections of Companions in Labyrinth, Two Cults, Expanded Legacies, Meres in the Labyrinth, New Cult, Lacunae in the Labyrinth. I think some could've done with more explanation on what they actually *were*, so if that is part of your point, you're right. If you're claiming Eternity offered significantly more specified gameplay additions than Torment did, then I don't think so. Perhaps they were more straightforward because they were designing it on the fly.

Your complain on writers just doesn't cut it. Pat and Chris added a combined $100K over the comparative days of PE. You may not personally feel excited about it, but it undeniably works from a pledge-raising perspective.

 

[Brzęczyszczykiewicz]

You say it like it's a fact. What makes you think that a good KS can only hit 75,000 backers but not a 100,000 or 125,000. Are these outrageous numbers? Is it that hard to agree that the stretch goals aren't exciting and they simply don't drive enough people? That PE's stretch goals offered a lot more, offer things that people wanted, understood, and were excited about it?

There is not a single kickstarter that had 100 000 or more backers, DFA had 87 000 backers and this is absolute best yet, both in gaming and any other kind of projects on kickstarter.

 

[hiver]

In the meantime, brace yourself for more disappointments.

Again?

 

[Vault Dweller]

You say it like it's a fact. What makes you think that a good KS can only hit 75,000 backers but not a 100,000 or 125,000. Are these outrageous numbers? Is it that hard to agree that the stretch goals aren't exciting and they simply don't drive enough people? That PE's stretch goals offered a lot more, offer things that people wanted, understood, and were excited about it?

There is not a single kickstarter that had 100 000 or more backers, DFA had 87 000 backers and this is absolute best yet, both in gaming and any other kind of projects on kickstarter.

And until PE the highest RPG KS had 61k backers. What's your point? That something is impossible because it hasn't been done yet?

Edit:

You were so busy brofisting people who agree with you, Infinitron, that you forgot to answer my questions. Take your time if you need it.

 

[Brzęczyszczykiewicz]

And until PE the highest RPG KS had 61k backers. What's your point? That something is impossible because it hasn't been done yet?

Kickstarter seems to top at around 50-90K backers. While this may change after million+ projects start coming out, now a lot of people believe all these projects are scam in one way or another.

Also Inxile hasn't released anything wonderful yet. If W2 will deliver their next project most likely will get much more than Torment or W2. Just compare Zombicide:
http://www.kicktraq.com/projects/coolminiornot/zombicide/
and Zombicide season 2:
http://www.kicktraq.com/projects/coolminiornot/zombicide-season-2/