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Torment Torment: Tides of Numenera Thread

AetherVagrant

Cipher
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Joined
Apr 12, 2015
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519
I REALLY liked it. Finished it way too fast, it felt maybe half the length of Planescape. But I *like* the writing, I like the merecasters and cyoa modules, combat was never terribly challenging but at least got more interesting and prevalent as the game wore on. My main gripe is playtime -- there was lots of c&c (some not apparent to the player at all) and I dug into *every* sidequest I could. However I was frequently propelled to the next main plot element without any indication that was going to happen, I didn't learn much about my companions and most of them disappeared for the last chunk of the game with no indication as to why. It's unique, there's nothing close to it except MOTB and Planescape, but it needed a *lot* more content to still feel worthy of full-price and all these years of waiting. As is it's like a superb NWN module.

--also fuck people jumping back on the codex with less than 6hours playtime. It's not that hard to get further in the game, give an informed opinion rather than a reactionary puke.
 

Taka-Haradin puolipeikko

Filthy Kalinite
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Apr 24, 2015
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Codex 2016 - The Age of Grimoire Make the Codex Great Again! Grab the Codex by the pussy Bubbles In Memoria
HBS, the company that has an explicit "we never post on forums" policy? I guess that's pretty clear.:M
Yeah. They never "interfere" with general discussions parts of their forums, but they have regular Q&A's and "Ask the developers"-portion of their forum which gets regular answers.
Besides their "no, we probably can't do that" -communication style is less likely to cause bad blood than content that was promised during crowd funding phase, but was cut and was only found out because some beta testers did some digging.
That is a strategic approach to communications.
What Inexile has done in that department?
 

Jarpie

Arcane
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Joined
Oct 30, 2009
Messages
6,612
Codex 2012 MCA
I give big props for Sawyer because he very actively engages with the audience (and consumers), which goes a long way in my books even if I don't like what they're doing or might not agree with him.

Then there is Harebrained Schemes who seem to have very clear and active approach for community relations and feedback.

What difference does it make? Will Josh Sawyer will make the character building less popamole? No! Will Harebrained Schemes make a game with cRPG meat? No. So it doesn’t matter. Open attitude to superficial feedback doesn’t improve things.

Like I said, at least he answers questions about mechanics etc. I vastly prefer Sawyer's and Obsidian's way of doing things than inXile's where they basically go radio silent.
 

Infinitron

I post news
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Jan 28, 2011
Messages
97,508
Codex Year of the Donut Serpent in the Staglands Dead State Divinity: Original Sin Project: Eternity Torment: Tides of Numenera Wasteland 2 Shadorwun: Hong Kong Divinity: Original Sin 2 A Beautifully Desolate Campaign Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire Pathfinder: Kingmaker Pathfinder: Wrath I'm very into cock and ball torture I helped put crap in Monomyth
I dunno if this is a question of talent or that game designers now work on their niche and writers on their other little niche like Infinitron said, NumaNuma worries alot about informing the player while Planescape Torment worries alot about luring the player and on the process inform him very, very slowly, on a much more passive way.

That makes sense, doesn't it. When the guy designing the content is the same guy who does the writing associated with it, he feels less inclined to repeat what he's already designed. Colin McComb writing an area designed by George Ziets wouldn't have that same feeling of "This already exists, I don't need to add more".
 
Self-Ejected

Excidium II

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1,866,227
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Third World
I dunno if this is a question of talent or that game designers now work on their niche and writers on their other little niche like Infinitron said, NumaNuma worries alot about informing the player while Planescape Torment worries alot about luring the player and on the process inform him very, very slowly, on a much more passive way.

That makes sense, doesn't it. When the guy designing the content is the same guy who does the writing associated with it, he feels less inclined to repeat what he's already designed. Colin McComb writing an area designed by George Ziets wouldn't have that same feeling of "This already exists, I don't need to add more".
Then they should not do it.

Writers should be designing and implementint content with writing being a part of the process.
 

Luckmann

Arcane
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Jul 20, 2009
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3,759
Location
Scandinavia
The game must be flopping like crazy in sales. 7.300 max simultaneous players while wasteland had 18.576 and it doesn't even appear on the top sellers.
lol PoE is 2 years old and tworment can barely get twice as many steam players as there are online on PoE right now
I almost feel sorry for it and inXile, but part of me can't help but to feel that they deserve it, after how they handled it. This game could've been great. It really could've been.

giphy.gif
 

Infinitron

I post news
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Messages
97,508
Codex Year of the Donut Serpent in the Staglands Dead State Divinity: Original Sin Project: Eternity Torment: Tides of Numenera Wasteland 2 Shadorwun: Hong Kong Divinity: Original Sin 2 A Beautifully Desolate Campaign Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire Pathfinder: Kingmaker Pathfinder: Wrath I'm very into cock and ball torture I helped put crap in Monomyth
How much did Pillars sell in the first couple of days/week on Steam?

IIRC, Pillars reached ~200,000 copies pretty quickly, then over the following months continued to grow to around 500,000. Sometime after that it started to get deep discounts and has sold even more since then.
 
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Self-Ejected

Lurker King

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1,865,419
I dunno if this is a question of talent or that game designers now work on their niche and writers on their other little niche like Infinitron said, NumaNuma worries alot about informing the player while Planescape Torment worries alot about luring the player and on the process inform him very, very slowly, on a much more passive way.

That makes sense, doesn't it. When the guy designing the content is the same guy who does the writing associated with it, he feels less inclined to repeat what he's already designed. Colin McComb writing an area designed by George Ziets wouldn't have that same feeling of "This already exists, I don't need to add more".

Roxor should update his editorial with this information. I still insist on my "too many cooks, but few ingredients" hypothesis though.
 

Luckmann

Arcane
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Scandinavia
Okay, replayed Planescape Torment about a year ago, it is still fresh on my mind so I can make a comparison. The major differences in terms of writing is that Planescape: Torment worries with where the player is at that moment and what the player sees. NumaNuma worries with where the player should go and pay little attention with where he is, it is more interested into pushing the player into the plot while Planescape Torment has its plot around the player for him to discover. One only cares into pushing the player forward and the other is more passive trying to lure the player on its mystery first, one has patience and the other doesn't, one cares about the player, the other cares about the plot.

I dunno if this is a question of talent or that game designers now work on their niche and writers on their other little niche like Infinitron said, NumaNuma worries a lot about informing the player while Planescape Torment worries a lot about luring the player and on the process inform him very, very slowly, on a much more passive way.

There are huge differences on those approaches, on Planescape Torment, for example, you find a major character that is later central to he plot on the Mortuary, Deionarra, you can find her out of your organic exploration, there is nothing guiding you to her and pushing you forward, the only goal is to leave the Mortuary, same you can find there one of the companions of your past and see at first hand how you were ruthless.

You unravel things and the player only come to know things out of his exploration, the characters only give you fragmented information based on their points of view. I remember when I first played and the Nameless one wake up on the mortuary, you only know you wrote a message to yourself on your back on a certain desperate tone, that you need to find Pharod and Morte while being helpful and sympathetic, it isn't being 100% honest with you for some reason.

Right after you wake up, you have the whole Mortuary, a weird place, you get to know of the Dustmen and how they see death, what is something extremely important as the Mortuary is the place you are going to be returning with a certain frequency. After you are done exploring the Mortuary, you had an awesome introduction not only to the setting but to your condition right of the bat. You won't have much in terms of exposition of what happened but you get learn a lot about where you are right now.

Later on, this tendency of giving the player just a little prod on a direction and let him figure out the details was really well done. You go exploring not only to see side content but get to learn about yourself, like when you go to that tavern in Planescape: Torment and meet Ignus and Dakkon, you feel you need to explore not to only consume content on a mindless way but that each location might have some tiny clue about you.

It is said that on video-games, the player is the king, this can be grossly misunderstood as the need to pander the player and threat him like a capricious child that need validation but if this is ignored and you as a writer is more worried about your grand story and not much how the player experiences it, this isn't good too.

In Numanuma, your situation is clear from the start and there is little for you to discover exploring. I got surprised how optional the entire content on Sagus is and how quickly you get to know everything you need to know and are pushed on the next location. The plot is in such a hurry to give you information and push you forward. You get to know who the Changing God is, who the Sorrow is, the castoffs and all of that on the first 10 minutes of the game that the rest of Sagus Cliff is kinda irrelevant and you only explore it to level up and consume side content.

Worse, they give you exposition on Sagus Cliff about things that will only be relevant much later while they pay little attention to where the player actually is, the Sagus city itself. There is no decent introduction where you are, no decent introduction towards the setting and its rules, too much exposition that could be easily delayed for when it is relevant but is regurgitated to the player when the player couldn't care less and wish to know more about the place he is.
This is honestly the best post in this thread. I have nothing further to add, I just had an intense desire to say that, beyond a mere brofist.
 
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FeelTheRads

Arcane
Joined
Apr 18, 2008
Messages
13,716
Seems to get better the more you go into it... or I just get used to it, dunno. The Valley is p. cool, some cool ideas.

P.S. When will be people stop writing "after what feels like an eternity"? Find some other, non-stupid way to describe a long time, please. It really has no impact anymore, it's so overused it's essentially just noise now.
In this game, I could even accept it... things could make you feel like that in that world, I guess, but I remember they used this in W2 too... for the chopper trip. It was an eternal chopper trip.

By the way, I just realized how both W2 and this are split into two parts and you fly between them. Imagination.
 

GloomFrost

Arcane
Joined
Dec 9, 2014
Messages
1,010
Location
Northern wastes

Fairfax

Arcane
Joined
Jun 17, 2015
Messages
3,518
I dunno if this is a question of talent or that game designers now work on their niche and writers on their other little niche like Infinitron said, NumaNuma worries alot about informing the player while Planescape Torment worries alot about luring the player and on the process inform him very, very slowly, on a much more passive way.

That makes sense, doesn't it. When the guy designing the content is the same guy who does the writing associated with it, he feels less inclined to repeat what he's already designed. Colin McComb writing an area designed by George Ziets wouldn't have that same feeling of "This already exists, I don't need to add more".
Then they should not do it.

Writers should be designing and implementint content with writing being a part of the process.
That was the approach in the mid/late 90. It worked because pure "game writers" didn't exist, most narrative designers in RPGs were huge D&D buffs (some even came straight from PnP design), and being a good DM requires a lot more skills than just narrative design. Now you have a bunch of pure writers whose experience comes from writing fantasy novels (almost all Obsidian writers today, for example), which isn't necessarily bad, but means they need more direction than the more versatile designers. Presumably that was Colin's job. He is one of the guys who came from PnP, where he designed good modules, but he hadn't worked on a game since PS:T, and maybe it shows (don't know, haven't played the final game yet).
 

MRY

Wormwood Studios
Developer
Joined
Aug 15, 2012
Messages
5,717
Location
California
For what it's worth, I think Fairfax's explanation about individuals having a specialized background doesn't seem applicable to TTON. I'm not challenging the criticism (to invoke my favorite line from The Red and The Black, "Argue himself back into being loved? What could be more absurd?"), but the facts don't work here. Colin is not a "pure writer" in the sense you use, Adam certainly is not (his game experience was more as a scripter/designer), obviously the criticism doesn't apply to George or Kevin. I'd like to think it doesn't apply to me -- though I think I am more of a writer than a designer, I have done lots of design over the years. I don't know Gavin or Leanne's backgrounds well enough to say for them.

I do think generally a single creator will yield a better product in some ways, and probably a worse product in others. The major upside for me is that the very best you can hope for is that each writer knows what the other writers' know about their own writings. (E.g., "Hey, Colin, just to let you know, my thinking with Inifere is....") But underneath that is what the writer doesn't know about his own work. The same subconscious that produced* Inifere produced the Council Clerk produced the Blue Mere. The same conscious said, "I am going to explore these particular themes in each, in the following way," but the subconscious was supplying the materials to me with its own mysterious purposes. When a single author makes the whole thing, not only is the superstructure coherent, but also the foundation is coherent. And so the player/reader imbibes not just what the writer intends to say but what he didn't intend to say but said nonetheless. That's sometimes what gives the whole its wholeness. I really don't see a way to replicate that with a team. Of course you'll never have a true "wholeness" because the visuals, voice over, music, etc. will have their own separate foundations -- on Primordia, Victor and I had different foundations and the result is that the visuals and the story probably tug in different directions sometimes notwithstanding our constant communication.

Obviously, you can have even worse scenarios where the writers aren't fully aware of what each other are doing, and I suspect that happens on larger projects. In this case, I think that George, Colin, Adam, and Kevin/Chris all had a god's-eye view on things to maintain that kind of coherence, but I'm sure there are even larger projects where that doesn't happen.

I'm not sure the area designer/writer divide is that big of a problem, but I see how it could be. I'm fortunate that most of my work was contained enough that I wouldn't have had to deal with that problem, but that makes me ignorant of it in any case.

[EDIT: * To be clear, the outlines of those characters (e.g., a castoff leader of the Endless Gate who had previously been a corpse eater, and a guy who is a clerk for the council) were someone else's creations, so I don't mean to suggest that they're my own creations in that sense. But other than those outlines, I think the content of the characters came from somewhere in me (which is to say, from someone else, appropriated by me over the past 37 years).]
 
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Sigourn

uooh afficionado
Joined
Feb 6, 2016
Messages
5,664
I reinstalled the game and decided to finish it. I just got out from the starting area. Instead of bluffing my way past it, I decided to fight for shits and giggles.

Jesus Christ, this is clunky as hell. One would imagine turn-based combat got better with time, not worse. I don't know how much of the sluggishness of combat is to blame on my computer, but it was fairly boring and unnaturally "slow", as in: Fallout 1's combat felt much more dynamic.
 

Lacrymas

Arcane
Joined
Sep 23, 2015
Messages
18,035
Pathfinder: Wrath
The combat is agonizingly slow. The creatures that come out of the mirror in the hidden sanctuary (much less awesome than it sounds) took forever to make their turns.
 

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