Game News Time to Conquer the Cold: Wasteland 3 Fig Campaign is Live

[J_C]

Hmmmm, Wasteland 2 sold 600.000 copies, if only 10% of the buyers pledged for Wasteland 3, that would be 60.000 backers but only 13.000 so far on the strong initial push... maybe it is the Fig effect but I dunno, D:OS sold 1 million and only 40.000 pledged for D:OS 2, that would mean that less than 5% of the people that bought your game were willing to give you money upfront.

Why do you assume that those who buy the game after release are willing to pledge for projects at all? Kickstarters are like preoders, only a very little fraction of the sales come from that. And you are saying that 13.000 backers in a little more than 24 hours is underwhelming?

I dunno but I think the feeling of disappointment isn't only a cynical codexian feeling as some are willing to believe.

It is a cynical codexian feeling.

The big KS rush is over, you have to offer something amazing to reach the same 4-5 millions in pledges. Like you said, Bloodlines 2 for example. But this has nothing to do with the quality of WL2. KS is hype driven, not quality driven.

 

[Bubbles]

And you are saying that 13.000 backers in a little more than 24 hours is underwhelming?

J_C and the Mysterious Case of the Missing Thursday

 

[Kev Inkline]

Guise, this just in: A concept art piece which I think did not make it into final production for some reason:

 

[Excidium II]

Featuring Thomas Beekers.

 

[Zanzoken]

Guise, this just in: A concept art piece which I think did not make it into final production for some reason:

Here are a couple others I managed to locate:

Spoiler

Spoiler

 

[MRY]

It's not a form of traditional investment with reason, accountability, and due diligence. It's because it's an exciting thing to do for most KS members and Fargo does a good job entertaining them with his videos. They don't do it to help him out, they do it because it's "fun" and they want to be part of it.

I mostly agree with this assessment of Kickstarter, but I think there's another dimension to -- a dimension that helps explain why you'd see a major drop off between WL1 and WL2 -- which is that for years people have said, in one form or another, "I'd pay $1000 to have another Planescape: Torment" or "I'd give my pinky finger to have an RPG like Wasteland and the other games I remember so fondly from my childhood." Suddenly, as if like a genie from a bottle, there emerged a way to make that wish (and its consequences) come true, and people went ahead and did it. Part of it is the excitement -- a really "good"* Kickstarter is like a live auction** where the excitement in the room fuels irrational actions -- but I really do think part of it is this precommitment that suddenly people were called on. In fact, if you look at the comments while a campaign is going on, you often see this sentiment being expressed, though it is possible that people are simply rationalizing their behavior.

By contrast, I doubt many people who played WL2 said to themselves, "I'd cut off my pinky for WL3." Just as very few people said that after playing WL1 or even after playing PS:T when those games launched. It takes time to appreciate things, and more time to realize they're gone and to crave them, and more time to realize they're not coming back and to mythologize them. Even if TTON turns out as good as PST (which I realize no one on the Codex believes possible even with three genies each granting infinite wishes), I don't think people would respond by wanting to open their wallets in an unreasonable way to fund some further PST spiritual successor; instead, people will take for granted that another such game can and will come. Maybe in 2023, Russian AIs will Kickstart one.

That said, I do think a successfully Kickstarted game could justify investors thinking they could make money off a sequel, so maybe Fig is the right move.

(* As I've written elsewhere, my own ethical views would make it hard for me to undertake "good" sales tactics like false scarcity, upselling, etc., but it's not for me to judge, especially since I was presumably paid with upsold dollars.)

(** I was just at a live auction -- far too cheap to participate -- and I watched someone very smart and very mentally tough pay $2000 for something she didn't really want because the auctioneer heckled her into it. It's just the way people work.)

 

[Fairfax]

It's not a form of traditional investment with reason, accountability, and due diligence. It's because it's an exciting thing to do for most KS members and Fargo does a good job entertaining them with his videos. They don't do it to help him out, they do it because it's "fun" and they want to be part of it.

I mostly agree with this assessment of Kickstarter, but I think there's another dimension to -- a dimension that helps explain why you'd see a major drop off between WL1 and WL2 -- which is that for years people have said, in one form or another, "I'd pay $1000 to have another Planescape: Torment" or "I'd give my pinky finger to have an RPG like Wasteland and the other games I remember so fondly from my childhood." Suddenly, as if like a genie from a bottle, there emerged a way to make that wish (and its consequences) come true, and people went ahead and did it. Part of it is the excitement -- a really "good"* Kickstarter is like a live auction** where the excitement in the room fuels irrational actions -- but I really do think part of it is this precommitment that suddenly people were called on. In fact, if you look at the comments while a campaign is going on, you often see this sentiment being expressed, though it is possible that people are simply rationalizing their behavior.

By contrast, I doubt many people who played WL2 said to themselves, "I'd cut off my pinky for WL3." Just as very few people said that after playing WL1 or even after playing PS:T when those games launched. It takes time to appreciate things, and more time to realize they're gone and to crave them, and more time to realize they're not coming back and to mythologize them. Even if TTON turns out as good as PST (which I realize no one on the Codex believes possible even with three genies each granting infinite wishes), I don't think people would respond by wanting to open their wallets in an unreasonable way to fund some further PST spiritual successor; instead, people will take for granted that another such game can and will come. Maybe in 2023, Russian AIs will Kickstart one.

That said, I do think a successfully Kickstarted game could justify investors thinking they could make money off a sequel, so maybe Fig is the right move.

(* As I've written elsewhere, my own ethical views would make it hard for me to undertake "good" sales tactics like false scarcity, upselling, etc., but it's not for me to judge, especially since I was presumably paid with upsold dollars.)

(** I was just at a live auction -- far too cheap to participate -- and I watched someone very smart and very mentally tough pay $2000 for something she didn't really want because the auctioneer heckled her into it. It's just the way people work.)

I agree with your point about the initial reaction to a game and how it takes time to really appreciate them, but there's another side to it: the initial KS CRPGs needed Kickstarter, or they wouldn't exist at all. It's not the case anymore. Obsidian doesn't need crowdfunding to make PoE2, and InXile doesn't need it for WL3. It's extra money, which is always good, but not condicio sine qua non.
That doesn't mean a crowdfunded game cannot raise as much money, but I don't think the initial wave can be replicated anymore. Very, very few projects could come even close to the excitement and money some of the bigger ones raised back then. Projects like Shenmue 3 or Bloodstained (Castlevania revival), but those are rare.

Another huge difference is that WL3 is only partially funded by backers. They expect Fig funds to be just 40% of the game's budget. That changes the whole dynamic. Kickstarter games were - at least in theory - fully funded by backers, and those were the only people the developers had to answer to. Now they're a minorty.
In this specific case, the WL3 team has to answer to unknown investors, Fig investors, InXile management and backers. The fans don't call the shots anymore. I don't think they ever did in any of the KS CRPGs, but now we can be sure they won't.

 

[MRY]

I agree with your point about the initial reaction to a game and how it takes time to really appreciate them, but there's another side to it: the initial KS CRPGs needed Kickstarter, or they wouldn't exist at all.

If you say so. I mean, it's true that there is a direct sequential relationship: the games didn't exist and Kickstarter didn't either, Kickstarter happened, the Kickstarter campaigns got funded, and the games got made. But you can't simultaneously think (1) that these games were entirely paid by KS funds; (2) that the main thing they got out of KS was money; and (3) that they needed KS to happen. Money doesn't grow on trees, but I'm pretty sure that the $900k ask for Wasteland 2 could've been gotten through other channels. What Kickstarter provided was a way for fandom to express its enthusiasm, but I think the money was really secondary to that.

It's not the case anymore. Obsidian doesn't need crowdfunding to make PoE2, and InXile doesn't need it for WL3. It's extra money, which is always good, but not condicio sine qua non.
That doesn't mean a crowdfunded game cannot raise as much money, but I don't think the initial wave can be replicated anymore. Very, very few projects could come even close to the excitement and money some of the bigger ones raised back then. Projects like Shenmue 3 or Bloodstained (Castlevania revival), but those are rare.

But there has never been any rational relationship between the money needed and the game's creation. People gave more money than was asked for. If people were only funding the necessary amount, you wouldn't have seen so much craziness.

I am 100% sure if there were a Kickstarter by, say, the Chrono Trigger team to make a 16-bit "spiritual successor to Chrono Trigger" or a Kickstarter by the Freespace team to make a space sim -- in other words, if other extinct charismatic megafauna were offered up -- the money would be there. The problem is just that there aren't so many IPs like that, or the teams to make them. The money would flow in even if Peter Thiel were the one asking for it.

 

[Fairfax]

If you say so. I mean, it's true that there is a direct sequential relationship: the games didn't exist and Kickstarter didn't either, Kickstarter happened, the Kickstarter campaigns got funded, and the games got made. But you can't simultaneously think (1) that these games were entirely paid by KS funds; (2) that the main thing they got out of KS was money; and (3) that they needed KS to happen. Money doesn't grow on trees, but I'm pretty sure that the $900k ask for Wasteland 2 could've been gotten through other channels. What Kickstarter provided was a way for fandom to express its enthusiasm, but I think the money was really secondary to that.

I'm not saying it was necessarily true, only that it's how it was sold to the fans. These games had a similar pitch, as in: "a sequel/spiritual sequel to a beloved RPG that no publisher would ever fund, so here's your chance to make it happen!".
We do know PoE and WL2 weren't funded with KS money alone, for instance. And maybe these mysterious investors could've funded these CRPGs back then already, who knows. I'm just saying it was a different time, different context, difference attitude from both sides, etc.

But there has never been any rational relationship between the money needed and the game's creation. People gave more money than was asked for. If people were only funding the necessary amount, you wouldn't have seen so much craziness.

I don't think people are rational in the slightest about these things, to be honest. The whole premise was based on an idealized game that would make fans feel the same way they do about classic games they know and love. In cases where the fan played the classic at a much younger age it gets even more irrational, as it's definitely impossible to replicate that experience.
That didn't stop fans from putting up a lot of money (myself included), though.

The way I see it, there are several factors behind the huge amounts raised by the biggest Kickstarters:
1) Fans feel like they're responsible for making it happen. So even if it was way ahead of the "necessary amount", people still wanted to be a part of it. This wasn't so irrational because...
2) Stretch goals. They have a huge impact, and this is backed by actual data. I think I've mentioned this before, but MCA in particular was statistically the most effective stretch goal in any of the Kickstarter CRPG campaigns.
3) The pledges had great value in the ~$20-$50, so even if there was nothing meaningful to be added and the game had more than enough money to be developed, the deal itself may be appealing.

In WL3's case, I'd say 1) doesn't exist. Even though one may argue it was an illusion for KS CRPGs, with Fig it's not even that. It's a glorified pre-order 3 years in advance, and that's why you see InXile making the basic pledges cheap and giving Statis/Underrail as a bonus. Not that it's a bad thing.
It's actually more rational in many ways, so there's less room for disappointment (except for the bullshots).

However, it was the irrational part that made so many people open their wallets and get all pumped up for something that was impossible to deliver.

I mean, look at the introduction to the Project Eternity page:

Obsidian Entertainment and our legendary game designers Chris Avellone, Tim Cain, and Josh Sawyer are excited to bring you a new role-playing game for the PC. Project Eternity (working title) pays homage to the great Infinity Engine games of years past: Baldur’s Gate, Icewind Dale, and Planescape: Torment.

Project Eternity aims to recapture the magic, imagination, depth, and nostalgia of classic RPG's that we enjoyed making - and playing. At Obsidian, we have the people responsible for many of those classic games and we want to bring those games back… and that’s why we’re here - we need your help to make it a reality!

It's a vague, extremely ambitious promise that's banking on nostalgia. We fill in the blanks with our imagination, and that's why it's impossible to meet people's expectations.
A sequel to a recent game that was also crowdfunded has fewer gaps to be filled, and is a lot more predictable.

"To travel hopefully is better than to arrive", after all.

I am 100% sure if there were a Kickstarter by, say, the Chrono Trigger team to make a 16-bit "spiritual successor to Chrono Trigger" or a Kickstarter by the Freespace team to make a space sim -- in other words, if other extinct charismatic megafauna were offered up -- the money would be there. The problem is just that there aren't so many IPs like that, or the teams to make them. The money would flow in even if Peter Thiel were the one asking for it.

Agreed, but that's what I meant: very few "dream projects" like that exist. And even in those cases, the number of backers has dropped compared to the 2012-2013 projects. It doesn't help that a lot of people have been burned by KS games, many are still waiting for projects to come out, and there's a lot more competition across the board.

 

[Konjad]

Wasteland 2 was alright, I had some fun playing it. Not sure if I want to bother with another one.

 

[J_C]

And you are saying that 13.000 backers in a little more than 24 hours is underwhelming?

J_C and the Mysterious Case of the Missing Thursday

Bubbles' Curious Habit of Missing the Points.

 

[Vault Dweller]

It's not a form of traditional investment with reason, accountability, and due diligence. It's because it's an exciting thing to do for most KS members and Fargo does a good job entertaining them with his videos. They don't do it to help him out, they do it because it's "fun" and they want to be part of it.

I mostly agree with this assessment of Kickstarter, but I think there's another dimension to -- a dimension that helps explain why you'd see a major drop off between WL1 and WL2 -- which is that for years people have said, in one form or another, "I'd pay $1000 to have another Planescape: Torment" or "I'd give my pinky finger to have an RPG like Wasteland and the other games I remember so fondly from my childhood."

Did they also say I'll mortgage my house to play Exploding Kittens (8.7 mil), Zombicide (4 mil), and best example of all - Star Citizen? That fact that WL2 and Torment were "another [insert game you remember fondly]" was a bonus not the driving factor. Broken Age that "started" it all wasn't a sequel either.

(** I was just at a live auction -- far too cheap to participate -- and I watched someone very smart and very mentally tough pay $2000 for something she didn't really want because the auctioneer heckled her into it. It's just the way people work.)

Precisely. KS is a cheap action where everybody "wins". Sorta.

 

[Darkzone]

It takes time to appreciate things, and more time to realize they're gone and to crave them, and more time to realize they're not coming back and to mythologize them. Even if TTON turns out as good as PST (which I realize no one on the Codex believes possible even with three genies each granting infinite wishes), I don't think people would respond by wanting to open their wallets in an unreasonable way to fund some further PST spiritual successor; instead, people will take for granted that another such game can and will come. Maybe in 2023, Russian AIs will Kickstart one.

Overall all i know that you are right with this statement. Also the principle of the rare resource plays in to it. But.. there are examples that do not fall into it. A system can make only a true or reliable statement about itself so do not confuse my talking about my past and preferences with egocentrism.
WL was for me from the beginning something special and i played Fallout only because my friend gave it to me and said that it is like WL and this applies also to PS:T. So there seems to exist something that makes a product outstanding and recognised from the beginning. And this cannot be blamed on my childhood, because i played Wasteland as i was a teen and as PS:T came out i was an adult.

 

[Kev Inkline]

Did they also say I'll mortgage my house to play Exploding Kittens (8.7 mil), Zombicide (4 mil), and best example of all - Star Citizen? That fact that WL2 and Torment were "another [insert game you remember fondly]" was a bonus not the driving factor. Broken Age that "started" it all wasn't a sequel either.

What comes to Star Citizen, people might have not only said but actually done so.

 

[Vault Dweller]

Why own a house when you can own a spaceship?! a picture of a spaceship?!

 

[Zorba the Hutt]

I do think there's pent-up demand for certain franchises though. HBS got more for Battletech last year then they got for Shadowrun back in the peak KS period, and they don't put on much of KS "show" compared to others, refusing to add more stretch goals when they've reached the scope they're happy with, etc. I guess it's a matter of determining which franchises have this cash waiting in the wings - and perhaps Fargo's personal history with the BT franchise led him to expect a bit more than there was in that case.

 

[MRY]

It's not a form of traditional investment with reason, accountability, and due diligence. It's because it's an exciting thing to do for most KS members and Fargo does a good job entertaining them with his videos. They don't do it to help him out, they do it because it's "fun" and they want to be part of it.

I mostly agree with this assessment of Kickstarter, but I think there's another dimension to -- a dimension that helps explain why you'd see a major drop off between WL1 and WL2 -- which is that for years people have said, in one form or another, "I'd pay $1000 to have another Planescape: Torment" or "I'd give my pinky finger to have an RPG like Wasteland and the other games I remember so fondly from my childhood."

Did they also say I'll mortgage my house to play Exploding Kittens (8.7 mil), Zombicide (4 mil), and best example of all - Star Citizen? That fact that WL2 and Torment were "another [insert game you remember fondly]" was a bonus not the driving factor. Broken Age that "started" it all wasn't a sequel either.

Star citizen was Wing Commander. Broken Age was Monkey Island. The former did become something distinct though. Board games and minis are their own thing.

 

[Vault Dweller]

Broken Age was Monkey Island.

Was it advertised as such? My impression was that it was a very different game (unlike Pillars which was presented as a BG spiritual successor) and it didn't look very appealing so I lost my interest and stopped paying attention. Plus unlike RPGs adventure games were kinda around. Telltale Games kept the old titles kinda, sorta alive: Sam & Max, Monkey Island, Back to the Future, and tons of other games. Was there any reason to believe that Double Fine would do a better job with their own "Monkey Island" than Telltale Games? Just curious.

 

[Jedi Master Radek]

Another huge difference is that WL3 is only partially funded by backers. They expect Fig funds to be just 40% of the game's budget. That changes the whole dynamic. Kickstarter games were - at least in theory - fully funded by backers, and those were the only people the developers had to answer to. Now they're a minorty.

Shadowrun: Hong Kong was only partially funded by backers. It was clearly stated that the game would be made even if ks campaign failed.

If you say so. I mean, it's true that there is a direct sequential relationship: the games didn't exist and Kickstarter didn't either, Kickstarter happened, the Kickstarter campaigns got funded, and the games got made. But you can't simultaneously think (1) that these games were entirely paid by KS funds; (2) that the main thing they got out of KS was money; and (3) that they needed KS to happen. Money doesn't grow on trees, but I'm pretty sure that the $900k ask for Wasteland 2 could've been gotten through other channels. What Kickstarter provided was a way for fandom to express its enthusiasm, but I think the money was really secondary to that.

I'm not saying it was necessarily true, only that it's how it was sold to the fans. These games had a similar pitch, as in: "a sequel/spiritual sequel to a beloved RPG that no publisher would ever fund, so here's your chance to make it happen!".
We do know PoE and WL2 weren't funded with KS money alone, for instance. And maybe these mysterious investors could've funded these CRPGs back then already, who knows. I'm just saying it was a different time, different context, difference attitude from both sides, etc.

You both forgot how it was before 2012. No publisher or investor would be interested in oldschool turnbased RPG back then. Even now, there is only a small interest. Enthusiasm of the first wave of the Kickstarters made classic RPGs look cool again. Playing or making them stopped being viewed as something only the most unwashed nerd would do and became acceptable. Back then isometric or top down view with a party based, turnbased combat would be a death sentence for RPG. In the world without those campaigns for W2, PoE, Divinity or Shadowrun, Age of Decadence or Underrail would never get as many reviews in press as they got now, and if they got some they would be totally destroyed. Just trying to imagine what would be written about them before 2012 is enough to get a headache. AoD would never sold those 50 k copies and we may have never got a chance to play Colony Ship RPG. Even if you don't like those RPGs from kickstarter, they still were game changers.

 

[Rev]

I do think there's pent-up demand for certain franchises though. HBS got more for Battletech last year then they got for Shadowrun back in the peak KS period, and they don't put on much of KS "show" compared to others, refusing to add more stretch goals when they've reached the scope they're happy with, etc. I guess it's a matter of determining which franchises have this cash waiting in the wings - and perhaps Fargo's personal history with the BT franchise led him to expect a bit more than there was in that case.

That's true, but also, when it comes to rpg, there were there few "old-school" games that were in the making in 2012. After that a lot of both TB and RTwP rpgs got made, like WL2, PoE, D:OS, Shadowrun, Serpent in the Staglands, Expeditions: Conquistador, Age of Decadence, Banner Saga, Underrail, etc., so the people who have wanted those kind of games for years finally had their share of titles.
Other genres, unlike rpgs, were not touched so much by the KS enthusiasm, so I think for those products there would be more people eager to donate in order to make them a reality. Like, a KS about an Age of Empires/Mythology spiritual successor would have a greater degree of success than yet another rpg in the veins of the classics.

 

[Bubbles]

After exactly 24 hours, the Figstarter has taken in $500,442 in pledges. By comparison, WL2 made 470k on the calendar day of its launch (i.e. in less than 24 hours), Torment made 1,488k and BT4 made 706k.

After 48 hours, they're at 590,633.

And after 72 hours, they're at 625,985. But we're currently in the middle of the big push to the finish line, so it will probably slow down tomorrow.

 

[MRY]

Broken Age was Monkey Island.

Was it advertised as such?

Yeah, everyone thought they were getting a class-era point-and-click.

Founded in 2000 by industry veteran Tim Schafer (Day of the Tentacle, Full Throttle, Grim Fandango), the San Francisco-based company has established itself as a unique creative force with critically-acclaimed titles such as Psychonauts, Brutal Legend, Costume Quest, Stacking, Iron Brigade, Once Upon a Monster, and Double Fine Happy Action Theater. This year, you'll be given a front-row seat as they revisit Tim's design roots and create a brand-new, downloadable "Point-and-Click" graphic adventure game for the modern age.

...

Over a six-to-eight month period, a small team under Tim Schafer's supervision will develop Double Fine's next game, a classic point-and-click adventure. [Picture of DoTT]

...

Q: What will the game be?
A: Other than that it will be an old school adventure, we're not sure.

I don't believe they showed any art until well until the pitch if it at all. (Clearly I'd misremembered the Monkey Island thing, but that's more or less immaterial.)

 

[duanth123]

It's not a form of traditional investment with reason, accountability, and due diligence. It's because it's an exciting thing to do for most KS members and Fargo does a good job entertaining them with his videos. They don't do it to help him out, they do it because it's "fun" and they want to be part of it.

I mostly agree with this assessment of Kickstarter, but I think there's another dimension to -- a dimension that helps explain why you'd see a major drop off between WL1 and WL2 -- which is that for years people have said, in one form or another, "I'd pay $1000 to have another Planescape: Torment" or "I'd give my pinky finger to have an RPG like Wasteland and the other games I remember so fondly from my childhood."

Did they also say I'll mortgage my house to play Exploding Kittens (8.7 mil), Zombicide (4 mil), and best example of all - Star Citizen? That fact that WL2 and Torment were "another [insert game you remember fondly]" was a bonus not the driving factor. Broken Age that "started" it all wasn't a sequel either.

Star citizen was Wing Commander. Broken Age was Monkey Island. The former did become something distinct though. Board games and minis are their own thing.

You're being a little baited here.


Vault Dweller doesn't like Kickstarter, to the point that he has for years caricatured it out of a driven belief that it cannot be utilized ethically.

Which certainly is not to say that most use it in a manner even grossly resembling ethical behavior.

 

[MRY]

Vault Dweller doesn't like Kickstarter, to the point that he has for years caricatured it out of a driven belief that it cannot be utilized ethically.

He and I basically agree, it's just that I think a key part of what's being exploited is the long-felt yearning.

 

[IHaveHugeNick]

Broken Age was Monkey Island.

Was it advertised as such?

Kind of sort of. It wasn't explicitly advertised as a sequel to this or a successor to that, but when Tim Schaffer announces he is making a point&click adventure for the first time in 15 years, you're expecting a very specific kind of game. If Pink Floyd reactivates tomorrow, you wouldn't expect them to play disco music.

Anyhow, there's one thing you guys are missing with Kickstarter's early popularity - pirate's guilt. A lot of backers, including yours truly, pirated every game Fargo/Schafer etc made back in a day. I've actually had to pirate, because there was no official distribution in the mid 90s. A lot of my buddies weren't that interested in playing these games, but saw Kickstarter as a way to give a helping hand to all those guys who 15-20 years ago gave us some of our best memories, but were now in a bad place in their careers.

Now that I washed away my sins with hard currrency, I don't feel that obliged to keep backing them, and I only do it if the project is actually interesting.

 

[Infinitron]

Why do people obsess about finding the One True Reason for things when the answer is almost always "All of the above"