Tacticular Cancer: We'll have your balls

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Stellaris - Paradox new sci-fi grand strategy game

Discussion in 'Strategy Gaming' started by Perkel, Aug 6, 2015.

  1. Jimmiousgender: ⚧ Magister

    Jimmious
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    It seems that the next DLC will be a complete combat overhaul.... Finally. But it won't come soon.
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    Starting system will be explored, starbases will be per system and limited, fleets have also size limits
     
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  2. Space Satangender: ⚧ Arcane

    Space Satan
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    I just hope thye'll make each ship much much much more valuable. With no expendable ships.
     
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  3. whatevernamegender: ⚧ Erudite

    whatevername
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    They seek a new target when their current target is destroyed in 1.8.
    No, they weren't. I did some tests where I lured an enemy fleet to a spaceport armed with missiles and then with mass drivers. Missiles destroyed like 2 ships out of 15 and mass drivers destroyed about 7 before they retreated.

    That sounds like it will be even easier to pwn the AI while playing with just 1 planet.
     
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  4. SmartCheetahgender: ⚧ Savant

    SmartCheetah
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    Some kind of "ace crew" system would be neat. I don't see a point of having named ships right now as they are basicly copies of each other.

    I wonder what else are they gonna change in this combat overhaul.
     
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  5. Sranchammergender: ⚧ Arcane

    Sranchammer
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    They're going to put more lipstick on the pig
     
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  6. Jimmiousgender: ⚧ Magister

    Jimmious
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  7. `Helliongender: ⚧ Learned

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    Edit: ninja'd by Jimmious :P


    Dev Diary with more info on the future update coming tomorrow.
     
    Last edited: Oct 25, 2017
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  8. Mortmalgender: ⚧ Arcane

    Mortmal
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    Wonder how much it will cost me again to be able to build space defense, a feature that would be free and done by modders in other games. 60k defense is indeed not enough for end game, hope they dont screw it again.
     
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  9. Jimmiousgender: ⚧ Magister

    Jimmious
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    It seems the whole combat system will change completely so let's wait and see how they are planning to make it. Anward confirmed also that making fleets have limits is not enough and they have other plans to complement that.
     
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  10. Grifgender: ⚧ Learned

    Grif
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    If they're smart, they'll also implement the stacking division malus from Hearts of Iron 3. (Eg. stacking too many divisions on one province will result in a combat malus that only grows more severe with each division you put in.)
     
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  11. Space Satangender: ⚧ Arcane

    Space Satan
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    How are you going to make stacking IN A FUCKING SPACE? HoIIII in terms of naval engagements had command overextension and it still worked not so good. Even in EUIV everyone is moving their army stacks together to pile them up in general battle. The difference is that in EUIV you can have a comeback if you are smart. In Stellaris comebacks are possible only vs AI who cannot prioritize blasting spaceports. With this change at least one part of doomstack war equation will go away and even here I am not sure.
     
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  12. Grifgender: ⚧ Learned

    Grif
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    Oh it doesn't make sense if you were to look at it realistically. Hell, the multi-day/weeks battles in space didn't fucking make sense either. But giving fleets a stacking penalty if they're together in the same battle would make sense if you're going to implement fleet caps. Otherwise, it'll just mean instead of a giant fleet of 1000 ships, its now 20 fleets of 50 ships moving together, which means nothing changed at all.
     
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  13. thesheeepgender: ⚧ Arcane

    thesheeep
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    Works fine for EUIV. Doomstacks do not really work well because they drain your manpower so fast.
    You can make use of them, and might win a war, but will be manpower starved for years after that.

    A far better idea is to keep them separated as long as possible and only join for major battles (and to be honest also only because the AI does it).
    Same should work in Stellaris. Just introduce some kind of maintenance limit per starbase/system or whatever. Going beyond that could then increase maintenance by A LOT.
    Of course that would push the game further to being EU in space, but don't we all agree that would be an improvement? ;)

    I don't see a point in introducing a disadvantage for having huge numbers in a battle - especially in space. Having a large fleet just makes sense. You're not the resistance fighting guerilla style.
     
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  14. Space Satangender: ⚧ Arcane

    Space Satan
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    Manpower was irrelevant for EUIV for, how long? a year now? Mercs are numberless and quick to hire. Stellaris have no manpower, you can build ships non-stop as long as you have minerals. You cna't win war of attrition because even in EUIV you can throw opponent into a bankrupcy once he can no longer take loans to hire more mercs.
     
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  15. Jimmiousgender: ⚧ Magister

    Jimmious
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    YUGE dev diary:
    Show Spoiler

    Hello everyone and welcome to another Stellaris development diary. Today's dev diary marks the start of dev diaries about a major upcoming update that we have named the 'Cherryh' update after science fiction author C.J. Cherryh. This is a major update that will include some very significant reworks to core gameplay systems, reworks that we have been prototyping and testing for some time. Right now, we cannot say anything about the exact nature of the update or anything at all about when it will be released, other than that it's far away. Normally, we wouldn't be doing dev diaries on an update at this stage at all, but there's simply so much to talk about that we have to start early. Cherryh will be a massive update, the largest one we've done to date, and there are many new and changed things to talk about in the coming weeks and months.

    Please bear in mind that screenshots are from an early internal build and will contain art and interfaces that are WIP, non-final numbers, hot code and all that business.

    Border Rework
    We've never been entirely happy with the border system in Stellaris. While it generally works fine from a gameplay perspective, it has some rather quirky elements, such as being able to claim ownership of systems that you have never visited and indeed have no ability to reach and making it hard to tell what the exact border adjustments will be when planets are ceded or outposts are built. For this reason, we have decided to fundamentally rework the Stellaris border system to be based on solar system ownership. Each system will have a single owner, with complete control of the system, and borders are now simply a reflection of system ownership rather than a cause for it to change. In the Cherryh update, who owns a system is almost always based on the owner of the Starbase in said system.
    [​IMG]

    Starbases
    A Starbase is a space station orbiting the star of said system. Each system can only have a single Starbase, but this can be anything from a remote Outpost to a massive Citadel with its own 'fleet' of orbiting defense stations. Starbases can be upgraded and specialized in a variety of ways (more details on this below), and is the primary means of determining system ownership. This means that wars are no longer fought for colonies controlling a nebulous blob of border that may not actually include the systems you really want, but rather for the exact systems you are interested in, and their starbases. This change of course would not be possible if we kept the wargoal system that exists in the live version of the game (just imagine the size of that wargoal list...), but more on that in a couple weeks.
    [​IMG]

    As Starbases now determine system ownership, it will no longer be possible to colonize or invade primitives outside your borders in the Cherryh update, but if a system contains a colony and no starbase, it will still count as being inside the borders of the colony's owner. These restrictions are moddable. Since Starbases now cost influence to construct (see below), we have removed the influence cost for colonizing and attacking primitives.

    Starbases entirely replace the old system of Frontier Outposts.

    Starbase Construction
    With borders from colonies gone, empires now start only owning their home system, with a Starbase already constructed around their home star. To expand outside their home system, empires will have to construct Outposts in surveyed systems. An Outpost is a level 'zero' Starbase that has only very basic defenses and cannot support any buildings or modules, but also does not count towards your maximum Starbase Capacity (more on that below). Building an Outpost in a system costs influence, with the cost dependent on how far away the system is and how contigous it is to your empire as a whole, so 'snaking' or building starbases to ring in a certain part of space will be more influence-costly than simply expanding in a natural way. Starbases do not cost any influence upkeep, just an up-front cost when first building one in a system. As this change makes influence far more important in the early game, there will also be significant balance changes to empire influence generation in the Cherryh update.
    [​IMG]

    As an aside note, because we felt it made very little sense to have a home system with a fully built Starbase but no surveyed planet, empire home systems will now start surveyed, with a only slightly randomized amount of resources, and mining/research stations for some of those resources already in place. This should also help make player starts a little less random, ensuring that you are never *completely* without resources in your home system.
    [​IMG]

    Another thing we have been wary about when working on this is making sure that building the Outposts for each system does not simply feel like adding tedium. Right now, between the fact that which systems you choose to spend your limited influence on is an extremely important choice, and various tweaks and interface improvements we are making to ease up the process of developing your systems, we are confident that this will not be the case. We've also made it so that there are no entirely 'empty' systems (systems with no resources at all), as we discovered during playtesting that spending influence to claim such a system felt extremely unrewarding.

    Upgrades and Capacity
    Each empire will have a Starbase Capacity that represents the number of upgraded Starbases they can support. There are five levels of Starbases:
    Outpost: A basic Outpost that exists only to claim a system. Costs no energy maintenance and does not count towards the Starbase Capacity, and cannot support buildings or modules. Outposts will also not show up in the outliner or galaxy map, as they are not meant to be interacted with at all unless it is to upgrade the Outpost to a Starport.
    Starport: The first level of upgraded Starbase, available at the start of the game. Supports 2 modules and 1 building.
    Starhold: The second level of upgraded Starbase, unlocked through tech. Supports 4 modules and 2 buildings.
    Star Fortress: The third level of upgraded Starbase, unlocked through tech. Supports 6 modules and 3 buildings.
    Citadel: The final level of upgraded Starbase, unlocked through tech. Supports 6 modules and 4 buildings.
    [​IMG]

    Regardless of the level of the Starbase, so long as it is not an Outpost, it will use 1 Starbase Capacity and will show up on the map and in the outliner. Overall, the design goal is for the vast majority of Starbases to be Outposts that you never have to manage, with a handful of upgraded Starbases that are powerful and critical assets for your empire. Going over your Starbase Capacity will result in sharply increased Starbase energy maintenance costs. Starbase Capacity can be increased through techs, traditions and other such means. You also gain a small amount of Starbase Capacity from the number of Pops in your empire. If you end up over Starbase Capacity for whatever reason, it is possible to downgrade upgraded Starbases back into Outposts. It is also possible to dismantle Starbases entirely and give up control of those systems, so long as they are not in a system with a colonized planet.
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]

    Spaceports and Ship Construction
    Starbases fully replace Spaceports in the role of system/planet defense and military ship construction. Spaceports still exist, but are no longer separate stations but rather an integrated part of the planet, and can only build civilian ships (Science Ships, Construction Ships and Colony Ships). To build military ships you will need a Starbase with at least one Shipyard module (more on that below). Starbases also replace Spaceports/Planets in that they are now the primary place to repair, upgrade, dock and rally ships, though civilian ships are also able to repair at planets.
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]

    Modules and Buildings
    All non-Outpost Starbases can support Modules and Buildings. Some of these are available from the start of the game, while others are unlocked by tech. Some modules and buildings are only available in certain systems, for example Trading Hubs can only be constructed in colonized systems.

    Modules are the fundamental, external components of the Starbase, and determine its actual role. Module choices include Trading Hubs (for improving the economy of colonized systems), Anchorages (for Naval Capacity), Shipyards (for building ships, duh), and different kinds of defensive modules such as gun turrets and strike craft hangar bays that improve the Starbase's combat ability. There is no restrictions on the number of modules you can have of a certain type, besides the actual restriction on module slots itself. This means, for example, that you can have a Starbase entirely dedicated to Shipyards, capable of building up to 6 ships in parallell. Modules will also change the graphical appearance of the Starbase, so a dedicated Shipyard will look different from a massive defensive-oriented fortress brimming with dozens of gun turrets.
    [​IMG]

    Buildings represent internal structures inside the Starbase proper, and typically work to enhance modules or provide a global buff to the Starbase or system as a whole. Building choices include the Offworld Trading Company that increases the effectiveness of all Trading Hub modules, and the Listening Post that massively improves the Starbase's sensor range. You cannot have multiples of the same building on the same Starbase.
    [​IMG]

    Defenses
    One of the fundamental problems with the military stations in the live version of the game is that they simply do not have enough firepower. Even with impressive hit points and shields, a station with at most a dozen or so guns simply cannot match the firepower of a whole fleet. An another issue is the ability to build multiple defense stations in the same system, meaning that no single station can be strong enough to match a fleet, as otherwise a system with several such stations will be effectively invulnerable. For this reason we decided to consolidate all system defenses into the Starbase mechanics, but not into a single station. Starbases come with a basic array of armaments and utilities (gun and missile turrets, shields and armor, etc), with the exact number of weapons based on the level of the Starbase. These are automatically kept up to date with technological advances, so your Starbases won't be fielding red lasers and basic deflectors when facing fleets armed with tachyon lances.
    [​IMG]

    Additionally, Starbases (with the exception of Outposts) have the ability to construct defense platforms to protect them. Constructed defense platforms will form a 'fleet' around the Starbase, supporting it with their own weapons and giving Starbases the firepower needed to engage entire fleets. The amount of defense platforms a Starbase can support may depend on factors such as starbase size and modules/buildings, technology, policies, and so on. The exact details here are still being worked on, but the design intent is that if you invest into them, Starbase defenses will scale against fleets across the whole game rather just being completely outpaced in the late game as military stations and spaceports currently are in the live version.
    [​IMG]

    One last note on Starbases: For a variety of reasons (among them to avoid something like the tedious rebuilding of Spaceports that happens at the end of wars) Starbases cannot be destroyed through conventional means. They can, however be disabled and even captured by enemies. More on this in a couple weeks.

    ... whew, this was a long one but that's all for today! Next week we'll continue talking about the Cherryh update, with the topic being Faster than Light travel...
     
    Last edited: Oct 26, 2017
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  16. Space Satangender: ⚧ Arcane

    Space Satan
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    FTL rework. YUSSS!
    They are remaking this game from scratch it seems
     
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  17. Jimmiousgender: ⚧ Magister

    Jimmious
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    I am cautiously optimistic. The changes seem to be in the right direction
     
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  18. Mortmalgender: ⚧ Arcane

    Mortmal
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    Yes they just need to revamp the simplistic combat system and make tech matters too. Building space defense is a step in the right direction but a small one.
     
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  19. thesheeepgender: ⚧ Arcane

    thesheeep
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    Maybe very late in the game when you have the income to be able to afford shitloads of mercs. When you reach that strength, you have won the game already and I always stop at that point.
    Definitely not early on or in mid-game. Mercs become ridiculously expensive after even a short while, easily going into hundreds of ducats per month for only a few dozen. Meanwhile you are lucky if you can manage an income of more than 50 ducats.
    And even very late in the game, you only get shitloads of money as a trade-focused nation, which simply doesn't make sense for many nations.

    I haven't played vanilla EUIV in ages, though, so maybe it is different there than in my mod of coice, VeF.
     
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  20. Space Satangender: ⚧ Arcane

    Space Satan
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    I want to see how they reworked FTL because current FTL is shit. Warps is retarded with penalties and cooldowns, hyperlanes are insanely boring late game and wormholes take a month to charge once your fleet is big enough.
     
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  21. Make America Great Again Average Manateegender: ⚧ Prestigious Gentleman Arcane

    Average Manatee
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    Wow, they really intend to make the game shit don't they?

    Funny, this could be the first instance of a game being released with an appalling lack of content, then the devs deciding to pad it out with filler a year and a half later.

    I guess the one good part is that capturing starbases makes wars actually worthwhile.
     
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  22. Make America Great Again The Brazilian Slaughtergender: ⚧ Arcane

    The Brazilian Slaughter
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    Why not allow for contested systems where one or more factions own planets and stations? This is something we had since ancient games like Master of Orion. Like, FFS. Could be a good flashpoint for wars too.

    All in all, this seems good. I like the idea of fortifying a system until its a Cadia-style planetary fortress.
     
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  23. Raghargender: ⚧ Arcane

    Raghar
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    So no longer total backstab by making frontier system close to theirs borders, then they would declare war on you, then they would make peace with you with you losing one juicy system, then you manage to catch the breath because of that peace and expand five times more than you were before war. And then you find they made defensive alliance with TWO other empires, so no reconquering that system few decades later. Until you maul these two empires or provoke them into fight with you, and maul everyone anyway.
     
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  24. Make America Great Again Average Manateegender: ⚧ Prestigious Gentleman Arcane

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    But you can just go around any defenses. And you can't fortify more than a handful of planets because paradox has to put arbitrary limits on everything rather than balance the systems they create. So where before the enemy could capture 100% of your planets after winning the first battle, now they can capture 90%. Due to the same mechanics that lets you take a homeworld by occupying a 1-pop colony, your enemy will just be taking your super-defended ship yards without needing to fight any defenses, leaving you actually further behind than before since you've lost your entire centralized shipbuilding capability.
     
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  25. MadMaxHellfiregender: ⚧ Magister

    MadMaxHellfire
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    sounds like this rework is exactly what i said would have improved the game. nice.
     
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