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Eternity Pillars of Eternity + The White March Expansion Thread

Parabalus

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rest mechanic (that most skills are tied to) is extremely punishing (not to mention, time consuming) and limited for no fucking reason at all

It's limited as a soft punishment to encourage you to Play Properly. If they had gone with a hard punishment, you would have been brickwalled a long time ago.

Funny thing is, the new resting mechanic actually made the game easier for grogs. It took me a bit to dig up the particulars:

I've consistently been able to go such a long time without using camping supplies on Hard that I'd usually rather fast-forward back to an inn for the ludicrously OP buffs, even though, on balance, I don't really need the buffs one way or another. An entire floor or two of Od Nua/an entire dungeon are fairly common. I've done several of the hardest fights with no buffs or freshly-used camping supplies, and 95% of the time I forget/decide not to use my Ales.

I just like having those rested buffs. This is the way I played the IE games: I NEVER rest-spammed. I finished combats as conservatively as possible, trying to use up every last spell and get down to the last drops of health on my characters until I had no choice but to rest, and even then I'll take risks.

I pity people who are too retarded to avoid rest-spamming by virtue of their own preferences and self-discipline. Good thing Nanny Josh is there to force you to do it "right"!

On the other hand, I'm sure White March, which fixed everything according to the wise Infinitron, smoothed this out as well.

You should have played on PotD, underselling yourself with just Hard IMO. Whole of Od Nua in one go is pretty fun for management.

Nanny Josh certainly took care of those bad restspammers in Deadfirej just too bad he killed everyone else too.
 

Roguey

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you know what time it is would fit right in with the people described in http://www.rpgcodex.net/forums/inde...expansion-thread.100006/page-137#post-4409223

Funny thing is, the new resting mechanic actually made the game easier for grogs. It took me a bit to dig up the particulars:
I too barely used resting supplies my first time through. This ended up working against me with regard to finishing Durance's personal quest (for some reason they decided that resting in inns wasn't enough to trigger new dialogues, you also had to camp).

I believe Josh should have gone for the Hard punishment for hard and above, with some sort of cheat-y escape hatch for normal and below. He can sob all he want about how he doesn't ever want players to find themselves in a situation where they are absolutely unable to go any farther, but the alternative where they continue to play horribly-but-just-good-enough-to-progress-with-degenerate-tactics and find themselves increasingly resenting him for making them miserable isn't something worth settling for. "I compromised and made everyone upset" as a design philosophy.
 

Blaine

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You should have played on PotD, underselling yourself with just Hard IMO. Whole of Od Nua in one go is pretty fun for management.

Nanny Josh certainly took care of those bad restspammers in Deadfirej just too bad he killed everyone else too.

Nah. I prefer Hard/Old Skool Normal. I generally want a consistent and clear challenge during a normal first playthrough of the game. I didn't really get that, since teleporting phantoms bypassing battle lines in the early game and being hemmed in with a certain dragon late game (I only remembered the latter encounter because I went searching through my posts today) were by far the most challenging encounters, and mostly for the wrong reasons.

Still, I wouldn't call any of the game's combat too easy on Hard, so that's a point in the game's favor. I just don't ever want an IE-style game to ever feel easy. I don't need it to feel exceptionally, brutally difficult.

What's mind-boggling to imagine though is that some human-shaped vegetables were apparently complaining about the difficulty on Easy.
 

Kyl Von Kull

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cherrypicking

Just before I put you on the ignore list again, neither of those things have anything to do with difficulty but everything to do with design. Either you can't read or are being dense on purpose.

Regardless, a bunch of dipshits never to be seen again, at least something good came out of this.

The problem with POTD is that it can be tedious and time consuming. If you were complaining that it exhausts your patience because it takes too long to sweep up all the trash, I don’t think you’d be getting so much shit from people. But you literally complained about POTD being too hard! If that’s not what you meant then I have to say you did a very poor job of expressing yourself. If someone else used words like “brutal,” and “nightmare,” wouldn’t you assume they were complaining about the difficulty? Plus, when you tell us it’s impossible to melee with anything other than a tanky fighter, this reflects a pretty fundamental misunderstanding of POE’s systems.

So when you say it’s poorly designed like this, what everyone else hears is, “it’s too hard.” The game has plenty of design flaws, but it sounds like you’re just trying to brute force it on POTD when really you need to be approaching it more like a puzzle.
 

Parabalus

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You should have played on PotD, underselling yourself with just Hard IMO. Whole of Od Nua in one go is pretty fun for management.

Nanny Josh certainly took care of those bad restspammers in Deadfirej just too bad he killed everyone else too.

Nah. I prefer Hard/Old Skool Normal. I generally want a consistent and clear challenge during a normal first playthrough of the game. I didn't really get that, since teleporting phantoms bypassing battle lines in the early game and being hemmed in with a certain dragon late game (I only remembered the latter encounter because I went searching through my posts today) were by far the most challenging encounters, and mostly for the wrong reasons.

Still, I wouldn't call any of the game's combat too easy on Hard, so that's a point in the game's favor. I just don't ever want an IE-style game to ever feel easy. I don't need it to feel exceptionally, brutally difficult.

What's mind-boggling to imagine though is that some human-shaped vegetables were apparently complaining about the difficulty on Easy.

If you never played an IE game I wouldn't be surprised about Easy being hard. Coming from something like Skyrim to PoE must be quite the shock, control and concept wise. PoE/IE plays like a RTS while most AAA RPGs are more akin to a FPS.
 

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Making most spells unusable outside of combat too, like bitch, let me decide how do I initiate the fight, even the iconic Monster Summoning + Fireball / Cloudkill combo is impossible.

No, this would be degenerate gameplay(tm).

Welcome to PoE, where it's not degenerate gameplay to scout the positions of enemies who turn blind after you've put 5 points in sneaking, neither to open up every combat with the same Interdiction/arbalest shot, but it suddenly is degenerate gameplay if you want to abuse rest or you want to cast outside of combat.

You are quite bad at understanding/mastering the mechanics, and I heavily recommend playing on a lower difficulty.
If you are just getting pissed off, it really is. It's your time, and your frustration. No point in putting yourself through unpleasant experience just because it's the top difficulty.

I am just playing through TWM1 with 5 people on PotD btw ;)
 

2house2fly

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If you can cast outside of combat then either encounter design doesn't take pre-buffing into account and players who pre-buff find it too easy, or it does take pre-buffing into account and people who don't pre-buff find it too hard
 

AwesomeButton

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If you can cast outside of combat then either encounter design doesn't take pre-buffing into account and players who pre-buff find it too easy, or it does take pre-buffing into account and people who don't pre-buff find it too hard
The difference is that they have a choice whether to prebuff or not, whether to abuse rest or not.

In the world of 'balance', you don't have that choice. Higher powers know better than you.
 
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The problem with POTD is that it can be tedious and time consuming. If you were complaining that it exhausts your patience because it takes too long to sweep up all the trash, I don’t think you’d be getting so much shit from people. But you literally complained about POTD being too hard! If that’s not what you meant then I have to say you did a very poor job of expressing yourself. If someone else used words like “brutal,” and “nightmare,” wouldn’t you assume they were complaining about the difficulty? Plus, when you tell us it’s impossible to melee with anything other than a tanky fighter, this reflects a pretty fundamental misunderstanding of POE’s systems.

So when you say it’s poorly designed like this, what everyone else hears is, “it’s too hard.” The game has plenty of design flaws, but it sounds like you’re just trying to brute force it on POTD when really you need to be approaching it more like a puzzle.

Do you even context people? Brutal was used just once, way back in the thread when I was just starting in regards to a very specific fight (big ass open space, fight's triggered through dialogue, swarm of enemies with variety of skills) in Raedric's Hold, I wasn't complaining back then mind you, it was one of the fights I actually enjoyed.

Nightmare was said about meleeing as anything but main tank, since NPCs switch target immediately to a weaker character + you get stuck in shit all the time and most importantly you don't really have much tools to play with, most melees are just auto-attacking bots.

There's nothing challenging or puzzle-like about POTD, I think the last time I actually had to reload was in that Raedric fight, I'm halfway through WM1 right now, with most encounters you are better off spamming AoE (I switched my second melee for another druid, just for that purpose) and hard CC, most debuffs are nearly useless in PoE since they last for about two swings and with how long it takes to recover after each spell they are just not worth using for the most fights.

All of my gripes in regards to design are with resting system (absolutely maddening, especially considering how long the loading screens are), some enemy types (elementals being immune to piercing, shadows with annoying ass deflect values - neither makes difficult just longer and more annoying to take down) and the way combat plays out in most cases (boring busywork on trash packs, which is made even more boring if you consider the rest system, since you have to keep all of the good stuff for the fights that matter, meaning - autoattacking trash for 95% of the time or running through five thousand loading screens after every second engagement). You can't even start the fight the way you want, akin to proper IE games, I hear there's a mod for that though, but when you gotta mod the very basic things to make it playable it says more about the game than I ever could.

No, this would be degenerate gameplay(tm).

Welcome to PoE, where it's not degenerate gameplay to scout the positions of enemies who turn blind after you've put 5 points in sneaking, neither to open up every combat with the same Interdiction/arbalest shot, but it suddenly is degenerate gameplay if you want to abuse rest or you want to cast outside of combat.

You are quite bad at understanding/mastering the mechanics, and I heavily recommend playing on a lower difficulty.
If you are just getting pissed off, it really is. It's your time, and your frustration. No point in putting yourself through unpleasant experience just because it's the top difficulty.

I am just playing through TWM1 with 5 people on PotD btw ;)

True, but as I mentioned above more than a few times, it's not about difficulty. And Dex was always a place to shit on games (usually, for a good reason), it's getting rather annoying lately though, with blind (and therefore boring) fanboys that don't really have an opinion on anything and can't argue to save their lives, resorting to the childish 'git gud' nonsense, hence the butthurt.
 
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Ulfhednar

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All of my gripes in regards to design are with resting system (absolutely maddening, especially considering how long the loading screens are)

The game is littered with a metric fuck ton of camping supplies - if you are playing the game well, you shouldn't be running out and needing to go back to town.
SOLUTION: Lower the difficulty.

some enemy types (elementals being immune to piercing, shadows with annoying ass deflect values - neither makes difficult just longer and more annoying to take down)

You already brought this up, and we told you how to fix it - targeting the right defense makes most fights trivial, even on PotD.
SOLUTION: If this irritates you, play on a lower difficulty.

The more I play the more I feel that it was made frustrating on purpose. Who in their right mind, makes one of the very first enemies in expansion a swarming horde of roided lizard people that immediately paralyze your whole backline.

These aren't impossible, or even particularly difficult battles. They might catch you off guard the first time you play them, but isn't that much better than playing an entire game where you coast through every fight?
SOLUTION: If you feel that your precious time is being wasted, play Skyrim, or lower the difficulty.

AI in fights has no fucking consistency either
SOLUTION: Lower the difficulty
 

Prime Junta

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most debuffs are nearly useless in PoE since they last for about two swings

It sounds like your attacks are grazing, because in actual fact most debuffs last a lot more than about two swings if they hit (let alone crit). I.e. you're attacking the wrong defence again, just like with the ghosts you were raging about earlier.

You, you know what time it is, are why we can't have nice things. At its core Pillars' mechanics are pretty simple rock-paper-scissors. You can't be arsed to figure even that much out, and instead rage about how frustrating the game is to play. And then you're shocked when we're fed streamlined casualised pap.
 

AwesomeButton

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True, but as I mentioned above more than a few times, it's not about difficulty. And Dex was always a place to shit on games (usually, for a good reason), it's getting rather annoying lately though, with blind (and therefore boring) fanboys that don't really have an opinion on anything and can't argue to save their lives, resorting to the childish 'git gud' nonsense, hence the butthurt.

Besides targeting the right defence, you should also watch the damage type you are causing and if the enemies are suceptible to it. From memory, the lagufaeth are weaker to slash.

Another factor is positioning. Use a bottleneck on the map, try to flank the, with your rogue.

As mentioned above, target their weakest defense (I think it was Will) in order to cause an affliction which lowers other defenses, and thus peel the onion down.

On fast enemies, look for afflictions which lower movement speed and dexterity. Ardouous Delay of Motion may do good work.

Look up the priest spell that makes you immune to paralysis.

Try to cause interrupts on their casters.

I agree that difficulty on PotD comes from inflated enemy stats and numbers, not from tactics or smarter AI, and it gets tiresome when every combat goes on for about 5 mins, most of which you spend paused.
 
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True, but as I mentioned above more than a few times, it's not about difficulty. And Dex was always a place to shit on games (usually, for a good reason), it's getting rather annoying lately though, with blind (and therefore boring) fanboys that don't really have an opinion on anything and can't argue to save their lives, resorting to the childish 'git gud' nonsense, hence the butthurt.

Besides targeting the right defence, you should also watch the damage type you are causing and if the enemies are suceptible to it. From memory, the lagufaeth are weaker to slash.

Another factor is positioning. Use a bottleneck on the map, try to flank the, with your rogue.

As mentioned above, target their weakest defense (I think it was Will) in order to cause an affliction which lowers other defenses, and thus peel the onion down.

On fast enemies, look for afflictions which lower movement speed and dexterity. Ardouous Delay of Motion may do good work.

Look up the priest spell that makes you immune to paralysis.

Try to cause interrupts on their casters.

I agree that difficulty on PotD comes from inflated enemy stats and numbers, not from tactics or smarter AI, and it gets tiresome when every combat goes on for about 5 mins, most of which you spend paused.

Well at least your heart is in the right place, but dude, for the last time, I don't have a problem with difficulty. I'm doing just fine, as I said above - the last time I had to reload was Raedric fight (and possibly the godhammer speck quest, for keeping the lights up in defiance bay, but not sure). I'm not getting rolled, I win all of the fights decisively. I'm just annoyed with a bunch of design decisions that are frankly baffling, especially coming from people that shipped the whole thing as IE: 2015 edition and actually worked on IE games back in the day. They had literally DECADES to improve on IE formula and all they managed to do is to make it worse somehow.

It's funny how everyone instantly assumes that i'm a scrub, even though I know almost every encounter in IWD and BG2 (indlucing a heavily modded version with vastly increased difficulty) by heart, did multiple runs as solo/duo/single class gimmicks back in the day and the thing that got me into RPGs in the first place was a walkthrough of IWD in a local gaming journal that I used to (re)read religiously while on a loo (dem were the good days).
 
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Jezal_k23

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So from what I gather you are doing just fine except for the incredible brutality of combat in POTD with literally impossible camping supply management and also absurdly merciless ghosts whose defenses are nearly impossible to penetrate and also melee is a horrific nightmare to engage in without a tanky fighter?
 

Ulfhednar

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It's funny how everyone instantly assumes that i'm a scrub, even though I know almost every encounter in IWD and BG2 (indlucing a heavily modded version with vastly increased difficulty) by heart, did multiple runs as solo/duo/single class gimmicks back in the day and the thing that got me into RPGs in the first place was a walkthrough of IWD in a local gaming journal that I used to (re)read religiously while on a loo (dem were the good days).

The mechanics are different enough from AD&D that your past experience is probably not going to help without acquiring some specific experience with the game. There is a fairly steep learning curve to get through.

I'm really not trying to be a dick, but you're a scrub at PoE if you're saying stuff like this:

Ended up fighting the guy, damn that was brutal. Took me like 15 tries and even then I had to resort to chokepoint tactics and sacrificing one of the boys (I think it's downright impossible otherwise, unless you have massive level advantage that is). Barely had enough damage, thankfully got a few lucky crits on key targets, would probably die again otherwise.

Your words, not mine.

You might be brute-forcing your way through encounters, but you've provided far too much evidence to the contrary to convince me that you have any real skill at the game yet.

So I'll say it again - git gud!
 

AwesomeButton

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Well at least your heart is in the right place, but dude, for the last time, I don't have a problem with difficulty. I'm doing just fine, as I said above - the last time I had to reload was Raedric fight (and possibly the godhammer speck quest, for keeping the lights up in defiance bay, but not sure). I'm not getting rolled, I win all of the fights decisively. I'm just annoyed with a bunch of design decisions that are frankly baffling, especially coming from people that shipped the whole thing as IE: 2015 edition and actually worked on IE games back in the day. They had literally DECADES to improve on IE formula and all they managed to do is to make it worse somehow.

It's funny how everyone instantly assumes that i'm a scrub, even though I know almost every encounter in IWD and BG2 (indlucing a heavily modded version with vastly increased difficulty) by heart, did multiple runs as solo/duo/single class gimmicks back in the day and the thing that got me into RPGs in the first place was a walkthrough of IWD in a local gaming journal that I used to (re)read religiously while on a loo (dem were the good days).
From what you are saying, I'd advise you to forget the IE games as a reference point. The IE games' experience isn't translatable. PoE is deceptive that it is, calling itself a "spiritual successor" whatever that means, but I think that really it's not.


Regarding the squandered years of experience,

I think the root of the problem with the IE games', and by extension with PoE's varied reception stems from the fact that the IE games started as an attempt to replicate in a videogame the PnP experience. As a consequence, players approach the IE games from inherently different starting points. According to whether they have any PnP experience, which they may or may not want to recreate via the videogame, they may approach the IE games as videogames, or as "a PnP simulation" of sorts.

These different approaches imply different degrees to which every player is prepared to take part in the "construct the world as you play" activity. That's something known to PnP players. The game's being fun requires some cooperation on the player's part in PnP, and even more than that in a videogame approximation of PnP, where there is no DM to take much of this load off the player.

So in the case of PoE, Josh was faced with the dilemma, does he design a game that's more a videogame, or one that's more "like PnP on the computer", and in many cases he went with the former. The funny thing is that he probably did this exactly because of his experience. He knew what kind of players he was adressing and that PnP means nothing to them, they largely wouldn't self police themselves and then blame the designers for being able to abuse the game, etc.

I think the combat system also looks the way it does because of Josh being conscious that he is developing a videogame. Hence the complex calculations and the granularity. He expected that hardly many players would take interest in how combat resolution works, because they would be playing it as a videogame.

What I think he missed to account for is that after all the complex videogame rules and calculations are set out, it is still a much more nerve-wrenching experience to watch the toons' next weapon swing and to feel the rush when the simple dice decided that you score a hit, or the relief when the enemy missed you when you had 5 hp left. This kind of instant mini-gambling is imo the most thrilling thing about the BG/IWD games' combat, and also perfectly catches the feeling of PnP dice roll combat.

Having said these things, and knowing that PoE consciously deviated from "PnP simulation" in the direction of a videogame, does it still deserve to be called a "spiritual successor" to the IE games? It's not the kind of IE successor I imagined when I backed it.
 
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Prime Junta

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At this point I would like to have it known that Go has braindead mechanics and as a chess grand master I should know.
 
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So from what I gather you are doing just fine except for the incredible brutality of combat in POTD with literally impossible camping supply management and also absurdly merciless ghosts whose defenses are nearly impossible to penetrate and also melee is a horrific nightmare to engage in without a tanky fighter?

Loading screens is a very challenging mechanic, yes. Much like reading comprehension. You people are like brainless packs of low level trash in PoE just coming in waves, doing the same tired bullshit over and over again expecting what exactly? you can't really win, there's no argument, just lazy insults and expectation of a pat on the back from fellow retards. Keep at it.


I agree with pretty much everything you'v said so far, but setting IE comparisons and broad strokes aside, the problem remains. A lot of design decisions (idk nor do I care if they were made by Josh in particular or someone else, in case you think I have some sort of bias against him, I actually like Sawyer and his work for the most part) are just plain bad, no real way around it. Not to mention that a lot of the things I pointed out could be avoided by a simple line in options menu a.g. the camping supplies thing or out-of-combat casting so both purists and normal people can tailor the experience to their needs (funnily enough both are fixed with inconspicuously named IE mod). As far as creature balance goes, shades at least I can understand to an extent, but the elementals and just random shit like xauriths and their roided WM cousins having access to instant paralyze doesn't make much sense both tactically and thematically. Feels more like 'well they should have something special about them', no rhyme or reason to it, just annoying. HP/defense bloat doesn't help either, all of those things combined just screams lazy to me.
 

FreeKaner

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People who never played RTS shouldn't complain about RTwP. I had very little PnP experienceand indeed I started playing RPGs quite late in my life, but I never had problems with RPGs, they are often quite easy because they are designed for larpers.

you know what time it is is having problems here because he is refusing to acknowledge he might be approaching the game wrong, whether game is well designed or not is irrelevant. I'd also say he is raising my opinions of the game's systems which I was not impressed about, I found it functional but nothing special. Now I am thinking maybe I am taking for granted my previous experience in video games and thus appraisal that if I lose maybe I am doing something wrong and it's not the game that's wrong.

Long story short, my Siberian friend. You should be targeting enemy's weak defences to soften them up with debuffs for your primary skills then damage them down. If enemy is overwhelming you start a bit more defensively, if you are running out of juice push your advantage early on. This works for literally almost all encounters in the game.
 

Zboj Lamignat

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If you can cast outside of combat then either encounter design doesn't take pre-buffing into account and players who pre-buff find it too easy, or it does take pre-buffing into account and people who don't pre-buff find it too hard
The ingenuity!

This is exactly what explains why PoE has such a brilliantly designed difficulty and encounters compared to many old crpgs, including the ones it directly tries to emulate and which were idiotic enough to allow casting outside of combat.

Oh...

Wait.

No, seriously.

Please, wait.

What.
 
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People who never played RTS shouldn't complain about RTwP. I had very little PnP experienceand indeed I started playing RPGs quite late in my life, but I never had problems with RPGs, they are often quite easy because they are designed for larpers.

you know what time it is is having problems here because he is refusing to acknowledge he might be approaching the game wrong, whether game is well designed or not is irrelevant. I'd also say he is raising my opinions of the game's systems which I was not impressed about, I found it functional but nothing special. Now I am thinking maybe I am taking for granted my previous experience in video games and thus appraisal that if I lose maybe I am doing something wrong and it's not the game that's wrong.

Long story short, my Siberian friend. You should be targeting enemy's weak defences to soften them up with debuffs for your primary skills then damage them down. If enemy is overwhelming you start a bit more defensively, if you are running out of juice push your advantage early on. This works for literally almost all encounters in the game.

giphy.gif


Difficulty =/= Bad design

Not having problems with the former, just latter. Please re-read (since you care enough to reply).

Jesus, since when it started to be so hard to justifiably shit on RPGs on codex of all places.
 

FreeKaner

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If pre-buffing is a necessity, why is it an option? Just make buffs last until death so you need to consider when you fail.

PoE1 has prebuffing by the way, before some of the hardest fights you have to rest at an inn, eat food, drink potions, use scrolls, consume herbs to be at top condition. However you are spending limited resources thus there is a strategic consideration, even if it is abundant. If there is no downside to pre-buffing what-so-ever it should be static.

Funnily in a way pre-buffing makes more sense in games with mana or equivelant, because then prebuffing makes sense to conserve mana in the fight itself and running out of buffs during a fight possesses a resource management dilemma. Unlike earlier IE games where it's a nobrainer.
 

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