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Pillars of Eternity Beta Discussion [GAME RELEASED, GO TO NEW THREAD]

HiddenX

The Elder Spy
Patron
Joined
May 20, 2006
Messages
1,655
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Germany
Divinity: Original Sin Shadorwun: Hong Kong
So where do we stand at this point?

  • we have a Might attribute that is good for Mages and Fighters and noone really can explain (-> Muscle Wizard)
  • we get no XP for tedious fights, many of them can't be avoided (The combat system better would be turn based anyway, it's too hectic in realtime)
  • on the altar of balance fun is sacrificed, no character build can fail, the challenge to find a working party out of restricted characters is gone
  • a two way health system (Health+Stamina) that needlessly complicates adventuring
  • trash options for real roleplaying are gone (every choice needs to be awesome)
  • a chief designer that obviously doesn't like classic IE mechanics at all and alienates the IE-fan-base
Have I missed something?
 

covr

Prophet
Patron
Joined
Sep 3, 2006
Messages
1,325
Location
Warszawa
So where do we stand at this point?

  • we have a Might attribute that is good for Mages and Fighters and noone really can explain (-> Muscle Wizard)
  • we get no XP for tedious fights, many of them can't be avoided (The combat system better would be turn based anyway, it's too hectic in realtime)
  • on the altar of balance fun is sacrificed, no character build can fail, the challenge to find a working party out of restricted characters is gone
  • a two way health system (Health+Stamina) that needlessly complicates adventuring
  • trash options for real roleplaying are gone (every choice needs to be awesome)
  • a chief designer that obviously doesn't like classic IE mechanics at all and alienates the IE-fan-base
Have I missed something?

January RPGWatch PoE review - 10/10 must buy
 

Arkeus

Arcane
Joined
Oct 9, 2012
Messages
1,406
So where do we stand at this point?

  • we have a Might attribute that is good for Mages and Fighters and noone really can explain (-> Muscle Wizard)
any classes uses magic to empower themselves, i don't get how or why Might would be different for Wizards or Fighters.

  • we get no XP for tedious fights, many of them can't be avoided (The combat system better would be turn based anyway, it's too hectic in realtime)
We get loots for tedious fights, they can be avoided all the time, and the goals are for the fights not to be tedious.
  • on the altar of balance fun is sacrificed, no character build can fail, the challenge to find a working party out of restricted characters is gone
Where are you getting that? Character builds can totally fail, it's just that no concept is impossible on easier difficulties- however you still have to build that concept well.
  • a two way health system (Health+Stamina) that needlessly complicates adventuring
A two-way health system that makes it possible to adventure with strategic ressources and not just tactical ones.
  • trash options for real roleplaying are gone (every choice needs to be awesome)
Where did you get that?
  • a chief designer that obviously doesn't like classic IE mechanics at all and alienates the IE-fan-base
A chief designer that likes the classic IE mechanics a whole lot, it's just not his personal favorite grognard ones. What's your point?
 

purpleblob

Savant
Joined
May 16, 2014
Messages
564
Location
Sydney
A chief designer that likes the classic IE mechanics a whole lot, it's just not his personal favorite grognard ones. What's your point?

It was advertised as spiritual successor of IE games and the lead designer admitted it's not his cup of tea and he will have hard time following its footstep?
 

Grunker

RPG Codex Ghost
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Joined
Oct 19, 2009
Messages
27,418
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Copenhagen
So where do we stand at this point?

  • we have a Might attribute that is good for Mages and Fighters and noone really can explain (-> Muscle Wizard)
  • we get no XP for tedious fights, many of them can't be avoided (The combat system better would be turn based anyway, it's too hectic in realtime)
  • on the altar of balance fun is sacrificed, no character build can fail, the challenge to find a working party out of restricted characters is gone
  • a two way health system (Health+Stamina) that needlessly complicates adventuring
  • trash options for real roleplaying are gone (every choice needs to be awesome)
  • a chief designer that obviously doesn't like classic IE mechanics at all and alienates the IE-fan-base
Have I missed something?

January RPGWatch PoE review - 10/10 must buy

I doubt it. It lacks an over-the-should cam and emoshunal engagement.
 

Arkeus

Arcane
Joined
Oct 9, 2012
Messages
1,406
It was advertised as spiritual successor of IE games and the lead designer admitted it's not his cup of tea and he will have hard time following its footstep?
No, he has said that he found a lot of faults in /some/ of the IE games but has also maintained that this opinion shouldn't influce his game. Keep in mind he has worked on a lot of the IE games and was the one chosen for Black Hounds too- if he 'hated' the lot of them it wouldn't have worked like that, especially as he was fairly junior then.

That he dislikes some of the mechanics in BG2 doesn't mean he hates the IE games.
 

purpleblob

Savant
Joined
May 16, 2014
Messages
564
Location
Sydney
When did I say he hates IE game?

Also, just because he was chosen to work on Black Hounds, there was no guarantee it will be as successful as BG1/2.
 

Grunker

RPG Codex Ghost
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Joined
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Messages
27,418
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Copenhagen
A chief designer that likes the classic IE mechanics a whole lot, it's just not his personal favorite grognard ones. What's your point?

It was advertised as spiritual successor of IE games and the lead designer admitted it's not his cup of tea and he will have hard time following its footstep?

You know, the Codex did ask about this before and it was posted not more than 2 pages ago:

http://new.spring.me/#!/JESawyer/q/476555580379526832

Josh Sawyer said:
Most of what I dislike in the IE games has to do with specific elements of content or rules, not the games overall. This probably won't be surprising to anyone, but I even think my three favorite RPGs of all time (Fallout, Darklands, Pool of Radiance) have a ton of problems and I would want to significantly revise aspects of their mechanics or interface if I were handling a game made in their respective spirits.

What I like about the IE games (not content-specific):

* Allow for a lot of large, beautiful areas that promote and reward exploration. There's plenty of 3D art that I like, but I love using 2D art when we can because we can make some amazing environments. Laying those areas out and thinking about how the player will move through the environment to uncover rooms, encounters, etc. is a lot of fun as a designer. As a player, it's always fun. The feeling is not the same in first-person or close first-person game, and it's also not quite the same in 3D. We didn't always use this well (e.g. some areas in IWD and HoW were very linear) and I think those areas suffered because of it.

* Responsiveness. I've always felt that the IE was very responsive to player input and AI state changes. Selection, movement, and execution of commands were all very "crisp" in the IE games, probably owing to its roots as Battleground Infinity (an RTS). Other than pathfinding, controlling characters felt good in the IE (IMO, anyway) -- better than it does in a lot of other RPGs.

* Tactical combat. I disliked some of the specific rules or rule implementations, but I always enjoyed the tactical combat in the BG and IWD games. I loved designing it and I loved playing it. In particular, "symmetrical" battles with parties or other class/level characters were a lot of fun. I like the more scripted feeling of those fights even if I didn't like the rock/paper/scissors nature of some of the hard counters. I enjoy turn-based combat a lot, but I had already been introduced to RTwP 6 years before BG, so I also enjoyed/had no problem with BG's fundamental style of RPG combat.

* General party control. You can access and arrange (almost) everything about your characters, shift them around relative to each other, use formations (though I like ToEE's better), advance and equip everyone individually, etc. Even when I didn't always like all of the companions' personalities, I liked that they *had* personalities and would interact with you/each other. And in the IWD games, we liked that we could make all of our own characters.

* The huge variety of characters/parties you could make. Overall, just lots of options that created great variability in strategic and tactical options -- and different role-playing opportunities.

For content-specific things:

* I loved the scope and variety of areas in all of the IE games, but especially BG1 and BG2. As a former BIS guy, I'm always going to prefer the *style* of areas we developed for IWD (and, just before my time, for PST), but the BG games had a ton of huge areas to explore and an enormous amount of content. I still think BG2's early-game content could have been paced better. Even though BG had a lot of dead space, I still loved exploring the Sword Coast.

* The tactical combat in BG2, IWD, and IWD2. My main complaint with BG2 combat is the hard-counter wizard fights. I don't think hard-counters belong in a game where you can easily, unintentionally, build a party that lacks the hard-counter. I also don't think save or die effects belong in a game with save/reload, but that's a larger issue with 2nd and some elements of 3rd Edition A/D&D. Notably, it's mostly absent from 4E and I think that aspect of the game is better for it.

* How PST handled dialogue from the perspective of making it more than literally just saying words to another character. PST's dialogue allowed you to do much more in conversations and helped the player feel like they were *doing* things. Of course, PST's level of player agency in the story and with companions is fantastic.

* The overall volume and varied responses/plotlines of companions in BG2 and PST.

* The music of all of the games. They were all great.

* The style of interfaces. They' were weighty and solid and the sound effects that accompanied them made them feel even weightier. Do I prefer the "across the bottom" UIs of IWD2 and PST to the wrap-arounds of BG and BG2? Yep. There you go.

I think that covers most of it. I worked on four of the IE titles (IWD, HoW, TotL, IWD2). I hope people understand that I didn't come out of that experience thinking that either the engine or games were anything close to flawless. I watched dozens and eventually hundreds of designers and players interact with these games for years. When I'm critical of them, it's because I think they can be even better, not because I don't think they were good in the first place.
 
Joined
May 1, 2013
Messages
4,501
Location
The border of the imaginary
So where do we stand at this point?

  • we have a Might attribute that is good for Mages and Fighters and noone really can explain (-> Muscle Wizard)
  • we get no XP for tedious fights, many of them can't be avoided (The combat system better would be turn based anyway, it's too hectic in realtime)
  • on the altar of balance fun is sacrificed, no character build can fail, the challenge to find a working party out of restricted characters is gone
  • a two way health system (Health+Stamina) that needlessly complicates adventuring
  • trash options for real roleplaying are gone (every choice needs to be awesome)
  • a chief designer that obviously doesn't like classic IE mechanics at all and alienates the IE-fan-base
Have I missed something?

January RPGWatch PoE review - 10/10 must buy

I doubt it. It lacks an over-the-should cam and emoshunal engagement.

AHA. Grunking Hypocrisy Exposed. Now what about your proper context of HiddenX's inquiry you shitposting autistic retard?
 

purpleblob

Savant
Joined
May 16, 2014
Messages
564
Location
Sydney
A chief designer that likes the classic IE mechanics a whole lot, it's just not his personal favorite grognard ones. What's your point?

It was advertised as spiritual successor of IE games and the lead designer admitted it's not his cup of tea and he will have hard time following its footstep?

You know, the Codex did ask about this before and it was posted not more than 2 pages ago:

http://new.spring.me/#!/JESawyer/q/476555580379526832

Sorry, I can't keep up the pace of this thread.

So, what's the "hard-counter" fights? Yes, I'm not used to these terms, I'm quite new to RPG
 

HiddenX

The Elder Spy
Patron
Joined
May 20, 2006
Messages
1,655
Location
Germany
Divinity: Original Sin Shadorwun: Hong Kong
Hard-counter:
You need a very special skill/spell in your party to counter-attack an enemy.
 

Shannow

Waster of Time
Joined
Sep 15, 2006
Messages
6,386
Location
Finnegan's Wake
So where do we stand at this point?

  • we have a Might attribute that is good for Mages and Fighters and noone really can explain (-> Muscle Wizard)
  • we get no XP for tedious fights, many of them can't be avoided (The combat system better would be turn based anyway, it's too hectic in realtime)
  • on the altar of balance fun is sacrificed, no character build can fail, the challenge to find a working party out of restricted characters is gone
  • a two way health system (Health+Stamina) that needlessly complicates adventuring
  • trash options for real roleplaying are gone (every choice needs to be awesome)
  • a chief designer that obviously doesn't like classic IE mechanics at all and alienates the IE-fan-base
Have I missed something?
  1. Actually the lore with soul power supports "Might" in form of increased dmg/healing quite well. What it doesn't support is a muscle wizard or any kind of only physically strong character. Physically strong characters are simply not represented in the system.
  2. Actually XP seems to be planned for certain fights.
  3. You are still required to play your char to his strengths. Thus at least sub-optimal characters are possible (eg. highly intelligent character not making use of AoEs or duration spells/abilities) ;)
  4. Yeah, this I still don't understand. Especially since all references to existing and possible better systems than D&D/PoE were brushed aside with the argument of them being too "convoluted".
  5. Looks more like all options are trash now. (That's what you get for removing contasts :troll:)
  6. In part. In other parts it's just Infinitron going false flag in order to generate butthurt.
Finally I'd like to say that I agree with the gist of your post :salute:
 

GordonHalfman

Scholar
Joined
Nov 5, 2011
Messages
119
A chief designer that likes the classic IE mechanics a whole lot, it's just not his personal favorite grognard ones. What's your point?

It was advertised as spiritual successor of IE games and the lead designer admitted it's not his cup of tea and he will have hard time following its footstep?

You know, the Codex did ask about this before and it was posted not more than 2 pages ago:

http://new.spring.me/#!/JESawyer/q/476555580379526832

Sorry, I can't keep up the pace of this thread.

So, what's the "hard-counter" fights? Yes, I'm not used to these terms, I'm quite new to RPG

Refers to stuff like using Death Ward, Chaotic Commands and NPP, i.e. something that makes you completely immune to an otherwise potentially crippling ability.
 

Arkeus

Arcane
Joined
Oct 9, 2012
Messages
1,406
Sorry, I can't keep up the pace of this thread.

So, what's the "hard-counter" fights? Yes, I'm not used to these terms, I'm quite new to RPG
Classic example are basilisks: if you have protection against petrification they are a cakewalk, if you don't you are almost certainly dead.

Josh is against such fights where a specific spell/ability is required as he wants a game where you can make any kind of party-concept, and not just rogue/healer/tank/wizard.
 

purpleblob

Savant
Joined
May 16, 2014
Messages
564
Location
Sydney
Thanks. Hmm can't disagree with Sawyer there. I do remember using friendly ghoul as a bait at the forest infested with basilisks in BG. The poor guy ended up dying before he had chance to have his food.
 

felipepepe

Codex's Heretic
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Joined
Feb 2, 2007
Messages
17,278
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Terra da Garoa
Classic example are basilisks: if you have protection against petrification they are a cakewalk, if you don't you are almost certainly dead.
Yeah, and his solution is the laziest possible... everything you do just increase your chances by a few %. It's all up to the dice roll.

Would be much more interesting to make Hard Counters a question of drawbacks: make Basilisks resistant to physical attacks, so that spending 6 spells to protect your whole party from petrification cuts a lot of your firepower. Or make that the "Protection from petrification Armor" gives very low AC or is cursed.... it should be about choice and drawbacks, about weighting your options, not banal % buffs.
 

HiddenX

The Elder Spy
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Joined
May 20, 2006
Messages
1,655
Location
Germany
Divinity: Original Sin Shadorwun: Hong Kong
Now we see that the RPG Watch have always been the true grognards.

I'm all in for innovations to the older IE-games - for good ones - examples:

a) change the combat to turn based
b) kill the D&D "I have to sleep for spells" thing - use mana instead
c) enhance crafting/alchemy and make it more interesting
d) make the dungeons much more complex and difficult
e) avoid filler combat
f) implement class quests (Expert, Master, Grandmaster) for each class like in Might&Magic
 

Sensuki

Arcane
Joined
Oct 26, 2012
Messages
9,800
Location
New North Korea
Codex 2014 Serpent in the Staglands Shadorwun: Hong Kong A Beautifully Desolate Campaign
Thanks. Hmm can't disagree with Sawyer there. I do remember using friendly ghoul as a bait at the forest infested with basilisks in BG. The poor guy ended up dying before he had chance to have his food.

It's funny because I never realized that he was put there to help you kill the Basilisks until like 2008 or something :lol:.
 

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