Morrowind vs Skyrim objectively

[Emily]

I think problem with magic in general in these types of games is how easy you can get it. You just buy a spell for 200 gold and that is it, you just somehow know all these skills without any context and it is really immersion breaking if I might add. Not only that, but even if you are thief you can still somehow move your arms and train restoration, just fucking how? Magic should be handled differently in my opinion, and non mage characters should only get scrolls if even that.
Now compare that to Gothic 2, where you first need to enter the monastery by bringing a sizable offering and a sheep, and then you must first be a Novice, and only then after a lot of effort and hard work(and finishing a deadly challenge I might add) you get the privilege of being trained in magic, just trained, you don't magically know everything (pun intended).

 

[Lhynn]

In this way I disagree strongly with one of the posters who stated skills which are less powerful than others shouldn't be available. I think he/she argued since Levitation does it all wonderfully then Climbing should be removed. What he/she is missing is having different routes to do something is integral to having different classes and hence different experiences. The different routes don't have to be equally powerful. There're strong and weak points to every class. (Magic users have weaknesses.)

I'm not asking for everything to be equally good. But if one alternative is inferior in nearly every way, I don't see much point in keeping it.

I do, variety. Plus how can you be sure some one somewhere wont find an interesting way to use your skill?

Those assholess that ask for less, that they want skills simplified or eliminated.... those idiots should burn.

 

[Clockwork Knight]

Variety is nice as long as there's a reason for it. Who is going to pick a clearly inferior/useless skill if they know what they're in for?

And more skills doesn't automatically means better game. Would it improve MW if we had tiny blades, short blades, long blades and really long blades skills, considering the weapon selection and their properties stay the same?

I think problem with magic in general in these types of games is how easy you can get it. You just buy a spell for 200 gold and that is it, you just somehow know all these skills without any context and it is really immersion breaking if I might add. Not only that, but even if you are thief you can still somehow move your arms and train restoration, just fucking how? Magic should be handled differently in my opinion, and non mage characters should only get scrolls if even that.
Now compare that to Gothic 2, where you first need to enter the monastery by bringing a sizable offering and a sheep, and then you must first be a Novice, and only then after a lot of effort and hard work(and finishing a deadly challenge I might add) you get the privilege of being trained in magic, just trained, you don't magically know everything (pun intended).

It depends on how magic is explained on the setting. In TES it's naturally permeating the entire world and tapping into it is easy. There doesn't seem to be anything preventing a non-wizard from using magic, except mana pool and the fact he'll need teachers to learn how to use strong spells (I consider the self-taught PC's quick learning pace a gameplay convention and not representative of how it works for most people in the game).

 

[Emily]

Even so any magic other then pure basic thing like Fire should be learnt from a trainer after a much more rigorous investment, and not necessarily only money. Especially since how powerful it is. Otherwise it kinda looses internal focus, and makes you wonder if it is that easy why wouldnt all commoners levitate and teleport around. Why even have transportation then etc.
Also there is a Mage College and University which are not utilized properly, at least in my opinion it was a great untapped potential.

 

[NotAGolfer]

belowmecoldhands:
I agree with much of that post last page where you tried to put a finger on what exactly was unfun about Morrowind's leveling system (not that it wasn't fun, I just think it wasn't very connected to the gameworld, just like smithing and alchemy aren't in Skyrim).
But the part where you praised how having a low climb skill wasn't hindering you in any meaningful way in that Wurm game I didn't like. I don't think having meaningful restrictions about what you can do and having fun leveling up your build's strong attributes are mutually exclusive. This reeks of today's RPG design, and Skyrim did a poor job at it as well.
The problem with Morrowind wasn't that you needed those skills, it was how you had to level them. As you pointed out it was easier/safer and on top of that even more profitable (bonusses) to not let your char learn them solely by using but to outsource part of it into doing stupid shit like sneaking/running against walls. This is bad, and I feel it's some kind of Bethesda tradition with their games, to not successfully tie together the specific parts of their RPGs like char building/leveling and progression in the gameworld/story. It's like either that completely open world approach simply doesn't allow them to or they don't even try.

I'm kinda getting now why getting rid of attributes was outrageous for some fans btw. There is no willpower and intelligence attribute in Skyrim, so different builds that are restricted to skills their char attributes allow them to use are off the table from the start. But then again raising most attributes to 100 wasn't that difficult in Daggerfall & Morrowind so it wasn't that meaningful there either.

 

[belowmecoldhands]

belowmecoldhands:
I agree with much of that post last page where you tried to put a finger on what exactly was unfun about Morrowind's leveling system (not that it wasn't fun, I just think it wasn't very connected to the gameworld, just like smithing and alchemy aren't in Skyrim).
But the part where you praised how having a low climb skill wasn't hindering you in any meaningful way in that Wurm game I didn't like. I don't think having meaningful restrictions about what you can do and having fun leveling up your build's strong attributes are mutually exclusive. This reeks of today's RPG design, and Skyrim did a poor job at it as well.
The problem with Morrowind wasn't that you needed those skills, it was how you had to level them. As you pointed out it was easier/safer and on top of that even more profitable (bonusses) to not let your char learn them solely by using but to outsource part of it into doing stupid shit like sneaking/running against walls. This is bad, and I feel it's some kind of Bethesda tradition with their games, to not successfully tie together the specific parts of their RPGs like char building/leveling and progression in the gameworld/story. It's like either that completely open world approach simply doesn't allow them to or they don't even try.

I'm kinda getting now why getting rid of attributes was outrageous for some fans btw. There is no willpower and intelligence attribute in Skyrim, so different builds that are restricted to skills their char attributes allow them to use are off the table from the start. But then again raising most attributes to 100 wasn't that difficult in Daggerfall & Morrowind so it wasn't that meaningful there either.

I was agreeing with you. In one of my other posts here I mentioned how if an RPG requires or encourages you to run against a wall to raise running skill then it has failed. When I gave the example of Wurm Online, it was just off the cuff. I was saying that slow skill gain doesn't mean there's something wrong. In Wurm Online's case, it didn't matter because I didn't need it. The fact it does raise at all is kind of cool because I don't pay attention. But if I wanted climbing skill or needed it then grinding is the only real way. Either that or you'd have to incorporate it into everyting you do INTENTIONALLY. For example, I'd wnat steep slopes where I live so anytime I do other things I have ot climb. In a way I already do this sometimes. For example, I have a house and a mine and oftnetimes when I am moving between them I'll use climb to go up/down a steep slope. I don't HAVE to do it because there's a trail which isn't steep, but I do it for climb skill. Sine it's part of what I'm doing and only requires a minute at most, I go ahead and do it. (Keep in mind ther're tricks in climbing to overcome things without the necessity for high climbing skill; barring high cliffs. For example, I've used trees before as leverage to rest my stamina; though it's difficult and twitchy. And when you're hauling a cart you can stop dragging it and go up further and then drag it and it'll come right up to you. You can do the same with what you're carrying.)

In Morrowind, I wanted sneaking to "blend" into the experience just like weapon skills do or even running skill (please note I am not trying to be offensive... the only trouble I had with running were (i think) cliff racers and trying to escape them). Either I was using it wrong or expecting too much, but I wasn't able to integrate sneaking into what I did in a natural way. What I'm trying to get across is I never felt like I had to "grind" weapon skills. Weapon skill increases just happened. With sneaking/stealth, it seemed like there was no natural state or progression wherein it just happened. It seemed like it was just useless so I had to increase it. Yet the only real way to increase it is to either mindlessly try to use it all the time or to grind it.

Here's what I think I'd do, given what I remember about trying to raise sneak in Morrowind:
1) Allow sneak not to break most of the time if a player is doing average targets - so they get the bonus sneak damage. This allows sneak to incorporate into normal combat activities slightly better.
2. Make ability to sneak also based on items or item types you're wearing. This way it's not JUST your skill level. This blends it more into the whole experience so your mind is not fixated on solely the skill.

Now, Morrowind had that already. It already has a comprehensive sneak system wherein it accounts for items worn and the capacity of your opponent. However, I think it was tuned too badly. From what I can recall, it simply broke too often to be useful in normal overlapping activities. 'Overlaping activities' means things sneaking can contribute to. Whenever I tired to use it for bonus damage or just in a general combat area - like to sneak past enemies - it failed too frequently to blend in.

If sneaking is goign to define a character it needs to be better utilized seamlessly with other skills. When this happens, you don't do it to incresae sneaking, but sneaking increases as a byproduct of doing other things.

 

[belowmecoldhands]

Btw I'm reading about factions in Daggerfall. I'm trying to figure out how how many factions - including all non-joinable factions - there're in Daggerfall, Morrowind and Skyrim. I started today by looking at Daggerfall. I read on one site there're some 400+ factions. However, only a handful are joinable - which I presume means they have a guild. There're some 88 non-joinable factions and an unknown number of political factions and a number of vampire/coven factions. I don't have a number, though. I'm not even sure if they can be raised or are just randomly conected to other factions which can be raised by doing quests/etc.

Anyone have any idea how many factions are in Morrowind?

Here's hte list I have compiled so far of things which make Morrowind different from later games and some plaeyrs might like:
1. You can levitate/jump very high to skip or creatively travel which tends to make travel more non-linear
2. Conversation is more flexible via keywords and numerous, as most of it's text-based, although a lot of it's generic and repeated from one npc to another - if you use imagination then no npc just says a couple lines of text
3. There're no automatic map markers or compass headings for quests/locations
4. More guild factions (10 vs 6) and gaining rank is more picky (stat/skill req)
5. A deeper enchantment system (for items) and spellcraft system (nonexistent in skyrim) for spells
6. It's harder early in the game
7. The graphics and creature names are more unique (not as stereotypically medieval)
8. Less and less equipment slots from each game to the next (24+ > 18 (Morrowind) > 9 > 8)
(note) Almost everything was enchantable, including clothes, in Daggerfall, so 24+ is accurate
9. You could use spears (there was also a corresponding skill for Spear)
10. You have to repair armor/weapons at shops or use the Armorer skill (not present in Skyrim)
11. Extra skills: Athletics (running/swimming), Acrobatics (jumping/fall-damage), Unarmored, Hand-to-hand, Medium armor, Mysticism
(note) Armorer/Spear were also lost, but are already mentioned
(note) Skyrim only added Smithing by contrast - although admittedly a nice addition
(note) Mysticism and Medium Armor can be considered merged skills, but I put here for completeness

Note the goal of this list is to only list factual differences, not to endlessly debate whether anybody would actually prefer these differences over a later or previous elder scrolls game. It's also not a list for Daggerfall or Oblivion or Skyrim. Those games could have their own lists - I can already think of some. Lots of things WERE added to Oblivion/Skyrim.

 

[Xenich]

In Morrowind, I wanted sneaking to "blend" into the experience just like weapon skills do or even running skill (please note I am not trying to be offensive... the only trouble I had with running were (i think) cliff racers and trying to escape them). Either I was using it wrong or expecting too much, but I wasn't able to integrate sneaking into what I did in a natural way. What I'm trying to get across is I never felt like I had to "grind" weapon skills. Weapon skill increases just happened. With sneaking/stealth, it seemed like there was no natural state or progression wherein it just happened. It seemed like it was just useless so I had to increase it. Yet the only real way to increase it is to either mindlessly try to use it all the time or to grind it.

Here's what I think I'd do, given what I remember about trying to raise sneak in Morrowind:
1) Allow sneak not to break most of the time if a player is doing average targets - so they get the bonus sneak damage. This allows sneak to incorporate into normal combat activities slightly better.
2. Make ability to sneak also based on items or item types you're wearing. This way it's not JUST your skill level. This blends it more into the whole experience so your mind is not fixated on solely the skill.

Now, Morrowind had that already. It already has a comprehensive sneak system wherein it accounts for items worn and the capacity of your opponent. However, I think it was tuned too badly. From what I can recall, it simply broke too often to be useful in normal overlapping activities. 'Overlaping activities' means things sneaking can contribute to. Whenever I tired to use it for bonus damage or just in a general combat area - like to sneak past enemies - it failed too frequently to blend in.

If sneaking is goign to define a character it needs to be better utilized seamlessly with other skills. When this happens, you don't do it to incresae sneaking, but sneaking increases as a byproduct of doing other things.

I understand your point, I just completely disagree with it. It seems that you expect all skills to blend into the experience, to be available and useful without any specific attention to their training. As you said, they should "blend" into the experience. Here is the thing, if by simply playing the game without attention to the skills (ie dedication to promote your selected ones) is the goal, then skills are pointless in the first place. It would be better to simply give you the full power of those skills and let you play through the games story and exploration without any need to attend to character development (maybe unlocking their powers and use at certain stages of the story when needed). While you think having to pay attention closely to a given skill, to promote it, to train it, and raise it to the level of your desire is a "failure" in a game, others see this as the point of character development. That the play is to manage the characters progression as a contest to the success and interaction within the story. The type of play that you seek reminds me of the difference between an AD&D player and a White Wolf gamer. One is focused on the rules (AD&D is a rule centric game) while the other focuses on the acting of the role with few limits in the implementation of such (the often resolve their conflicts with Ro Sham Bo). The goals of each system are dramatically different. The question is if Morrowind was supposed to be the former or the later, or a mix. Personally, I think a cRPG has always been a focus of the "Game" aspect of play (ie rule systems and overcoming the rules through clever applications of them), not the LARPing type of interaction that you see in White Wolf games (that is, unless the game goes out of its way to achieve that, ie Bloodlines).

 

[Crevice tab]

I understand your point, I just completely disagree with it. It seems that you expect all skills to blend into the experience, to be available and useful without any specific attention to their training. As you said, they should "blend" into the experience. Here is the thing, if by simply playing the game without attention to the skills (ie dedication to promote your selected ones) is the goal, then skills are pointless in the first place. It would be better to simply give you the full power of those skills and let you play through the games story and exploration without any need to attend to character development (maybe unlocking their powers and use at certain stages of the story when needed). While you think having to pay attention closely to a given skill, to promote it, to train it, and raise it to the level of your desire is a "failure" in a game, others see this as the point of character development. That the play is to manage the characters progression as a contest to the success and interaction within the story. The type of play that you seek reminds me of the difference between an AD&D player and a White Wolf gamer. One is focused on the rules (AD&D is a rule centric game) while the other focuses on the acting of the role with few limits in the implementation of such (the often resolve their conflicts with Ro Sham Bo). The goals of each system are dramatically different. The question is if Morrowind was supposed to be the former or the later, or a mix. Personally, I think a cRPG has always been a focus of the "Game" aspect of play (ie rule systems and overcoming the rules through clever applications of them), not the LARPing type of interaction that you see in White Wolf games (that is, unless the game goes out of its way to achieve that, ie Bloodlines).

Almost certainly a mix- which is perhaps for the best because overly strict rules are hard to implement in an open, off the rails world. The rules system is very important and a big focus as proven by many things including the factions requiring a certain level of skill to progress in ranks however the system is built to be quite easy and give the player a lot of leeway in not optimizing his build. To put it simply: Morrowind is a cRPG but with deliberately slack rules to allow for LARP style play if the player wishes.

 

[Xenich]

To put it simply: Morrowind is a cRPG but with deliberately slack rules to allow for LARP style play if the player wishes.

Well, that most certainly seems to be the case if one looks at the result of today's TES. That said, I am not so sure that was what was sought during the early games, though there is no argument as to where that progression eventually drove itself. I find the current games tend to be entirely for the LARPing crowd with complete disregard for the rules player. Skyrim seems like a pointless walking arcade simulator to me. I would love to see another Arena/Daggerfall/Morrowind, yet I know this company will never provide such. It has its new crowd to attend to and I am not part of it. Little sad that they dumped their old school player base to chase after a different crowd though as those larping crowds wouldn't even give the early games a second glance. /shrug

 

[AngryEddy]

In this way I disagree strongly with one of the posters who stated skills which are less powerful than others shouldn't be available. I think he/she argued since Levitation does it all wonderfully then Climbing should be removed. What he/she is missing is having different routes to do something is integral to having different classes and hence different experiences. The different routes don't have to be equally powerful. There're strong and weak points to every class. (Magic users have weaknesses.)

I'm not asking for everything to be equally good. But if one alternative is inferior in nearly every way, I don't see much point in keeping it.

I do, variety.

Variety automatically being good is a classic mistake that the modding community for basically every PC game I've played from Doom to Skyrim makes. There is nothing more off putting than seeing 5 different variations of the same thing, which could all be condensed in to 1 thing. In regards to acrobat vs levitation, just add a mana toggle to levitation.

 

[Lhynn]

Variety automatically being good is a classic mistake that the modding community for basically every PC game I've played from Doom to Skyrim makes. There is nothing more off putting than seeing 5 different variations of the same thing, which could all be condensed in to 1 thing. In regards to acrobat vs levitation, just add a mana toggle to levitation.

Bullshit, whats the point of playing an rpg if there is only one way to get each thing done?
Why give a mage more than one damage spell? why introduce more than one king of damage? why put more than one weapon in the game?
Creating your own custom character, even when differences are little more than cosmetic is still fun, plus it opens the door to levels of complexity in your game.

Given the choice between more and less when it comes to options, ill usually take more.

 

[CyberP]

Why is OP even asking such a question? Despite Morrowind's many rough edges only an idiot would prefer vanilla Skyrim to vanilla Morrowind. Skyrim is not engaging on an intellectual level, and to a lesser extent nor a primitive one, despite their many efforts in regards to the latter. Morrowind isn't the golden standard of RPG either, but you can tell it's a lovingly-crafted game. I only feel that way in regards to some aspects of Skyrim, mostly the art.
As an overall concoction of design the formula is weak and much could have been done to make it the grand game it had the potential to be.

 

[CyberP]

No matter what is said though, Bethesda release modding tools. This keeps me from feeling truly betrayed.

 

[AngryEddy]

Variety automatically being good is a classic mistake that the modding community for basically every PC game I've played from Doom to Skyrim makes. There is nothing more off putting than seeing 5 different variations of the same thing, which could all be condensed in to 1 thing. In regards to acrobat vs levitation, just add a mana toggle to levitation.

Given the choice between more and less when it comes to options, ill usually take more. Bullshit, whats the point of playing an rpg if there is only one way to get each thing done?

I fundamentally agree with you, I just don't like modders or game devs for that matter just spamming content in their game that is interchangeable with other shit.

 

[A user named cat]

objectively

 

[CyberP]

There is nothing more off putting than seeing 5 different variations of the same thing, which could all be condensed in to 1 thing. In regards to acrobat vs levitation, just add a mana toggle to levitation..

Bethesda only ever really did this with level design though.

"In regards to acrobat vs levitation, just add a mana toggle to levitation."

No. You fail to see the great worth in both being separate mechanics. Just add toggle to levitation? Do you not think that it not having mana toggle was intentional, considering how empowering the spell is? there has to be a drawback. Do you not think that this wouldn't achieve much, considering levitation is meant to be a rare spell because of how empowering it is, so it'd still be like losing acrobatics anyway? I could go on and on. Acrobatics' and it's effects on jumping (and therefore exploration, combat and evasion) was considerably different to levitation. There was flaws in the systems, but merging them or removing them wasn't the solution.

The only thing that bethesda needed to stop fucking spamming was world/level design. Ironically it's the only thing they still do, and it's still bad design as they fail to fill the space they make with quality content.

 

[Xenich]

No matter what is said though, Bethesda release modding tools. This keeps me from feeling truly betrayed.

There is only so much that can be repaired with the modding tools though. Your modifications are limited by the capabilities of the engine and if the engine doesn't support it, you are pretty much out of luck.

 

[Xenich]

Variety automatically being good is a classic mistake that the modding community for basically every PC game I've played from Doom to Skyrim makes. There is nothing more off putting than seeing 5 different variations of the same thing, which could all be condensed in to 1 thing. In regards to acrobat vs levitation, just add a mana toggle to levitation.

There is the other end as well. For instance, putting weapon skills into basic generalized categories based on the number of limbs it takes to use them is missing the point and an obvious dumbing down of the system. Anyone who has trained in weapon use knows there is a major difference between the use of various weapons. A broadsword is not the same thing as a short sword by any means and is vastly different than an axe. A common problem with some arguments concerning redundancy is that their argument is one that operates on a severe ignorance of the given skill they generalize.

 

[Crevice tab]

No matter what is said though, Bethesda release modding tools. This keeps me from feeling truly betrayed.

There is only so much that can be repaired with the modding tools though. Your modifications are limited by the capabilities of the engine and if the engine doesn't support it, you are pretty much out of luck.

What's more fully repairing a flawed game isn't easy. Even Morrowind and Skyrim had a lot of bugs and other problems that took a long time to repair. For Oblivion and Fallout 3? You'd have to remake those games from ground up to repair them and thus they're barely playable even today many years after their release.

Variety automatically being good is a classic mistake that the modding community for basically every PC game I've played from Doom to Skyrim makes. There is nothing more off putting than seeing 5 different variations of the same thing, which could all be condensed in to 1 thing. In regards to acrobat vs levitation, just add a mana toggle to levitation.

There is the other end as well. For instance, putting weapon skills into basic generalized categories based on the number of limbs it takes to use them is missing the point and an obvious dumbing down of the system. Anyone who has trained in weapon use knows there is a major difference between the use of various weapons. A broadsword is not the same thing as a short sword by any means and is vastly different than an axe. A common problem with some arguments concerning redundancy is that their argument is one that operates on a severe ignorance of the given skill they generalize.

This^. The whole shtick of a halfway realistic game/world/whatever like TES tries to be is to represent stuff accurately. If you only have one skill that reflects everything then how will the game react to your choices? What will make it different from popamole action games?

Of course any game will be an abstraction due to technological constraints and thus far less complex than 'reality' or lore. That's ok and we'd have to be utterly unreasonable not to take the computing limits into account but not having the couple dozen skills needed to make an engaging game isn't a technical limitation- it's pure laziness and .

 

[Clockwork Knight]

There is the other end as well. For instance, putting weapon skills into basic generalized categories based on the number of limbs it takes to use them is missing the point and an obvious dumbing down of the system. Anyone who has trained in weapon use knows there is a major difference between the use of various weapons. A broadsword is not the same thing as a short sword by any means and is vastly different than an axe. A common problem with some arguments concerning redundancy is that their argument is one that operates on a severe ignorance of the given skill they generalize.

Then you have this:

"I am the master of the long sword, I can attack 10 times in the blink of an eye and cleave a human hair down the middle."
"Cool bro, take this short sword. It's about 6 inches shorter."
"Ohh fuck how do I even hold this thing?"

There are quirks with both approaches. Skyrim's approach to the skills is satisfactory for the gameplay presented in the game, you could have properties for the weapons themselves to make them feel different from each other (the game already has different weight and range values, but it's not very noticeable)

 

[Xenich]

There is the other end as well. For instance, putting weapon skills into basic generalized categories based on the number of limbs it takes to use them is missing the point and an obvious dumbing down of the system. Anyone who has trained in weapon use knows there is a major difference between the use of various weapons. A broadsword is not the same thing as a short sword by any means and is vastly different than an axe. A common problem with some arguments concerning redundancy is that their argument is one that operates on a severe ignorance of the given skill they generalize.

There are quirks with both approaches.

"I am the master of the long sword, I can attack 10 times in the blink of an eye and cleave a human hair down the middle."
"Cool bro, take this short sword. It's about 6 inches shorter."
"Ohh fuck how do I even hold this thing?"

I guess if you determine "skill" in a weapon to be simply swinging it around, then that would be a point. Thing is, that isn't what the "skill" in a weapon means. It is understanding the weapon and knowing its strengths/weaknesses and how they are applied within combat. I can train you to fight single handed with a long blade and then hand you a short blade. You may attempt to use the short blade similarly to that of a long blade, but you immediately see the problem with such applications. Short blades have different techniques, different styles and require new mastery. So being a great wielder of a long sword doesn't make you worth a shit with a short sword.

Also, this is apparent in not only various types of blades (though some can transfer fairly well depending on make and style of the weapon), but things like if they are single or double bladed, etc... All of these things matter and one does not become a sword master because they learned how to wield one type of sword. Heck, fighting with a Katana is drastically different than that of a bastard sword and yet both are two handed/one handed weapons. A raiper and a saber are completely different in fighting styles as well.

So yes... "Ohh fuck, how do I even hold this thing" indeed. (oh and the difference between them is more than 6 inches, try about around 12-15 or so in difference.)

I know this is all "nerdy" stuff, but then... that is kind of the point of these systems, not simply to facilitate someones fantasy of make believe dress up.

 

[Clockwork Knight]

Surely a badass warrior can make use of his vast experience with longswords and adapt accordingly when using a dagger or a short axe? At least he isn't going to stab himself on the crotch.

 

[Xenich]

Surely a badass warrior can make use of his vast experience with longswords and adapt accordingly when using a dagger or a short axe? At least he isn't going to stab himself on the crotch.

Surely a man who can wield a hammer can make use of his vast experiences with such to apply to that of a sledge hammer? /sarc

No, it is not the same. Also, as for using Axes? Now that is a COMPLETELY different skill set. Like I said, we aren't talking about novices swinging around the weapons. Any idiot can swing around something in their hand.

We are talking about a hero becoming "skillful", using the weapon in a manner that is skillful as a professional would and a professional wouldn't wield a short blade like a long blade, nor like an axe, or staff, etc... We aren't arguing opinions here, this is fact. Look up the various fighting styles with weapons. Some things transfer, but many aspects are specific to the weapon.

 

[DalekFlay]

Surely a badass warrior can make use of his vast experience with longswords and adapt accordingly when using a dagger or a short axe? At least he isn't going to stab himself on the crotch.

I agree on most one-handed weapons, but I do think daggers should be a separate skill. It makes sense because the technique would be different (going for soft spots, having less effective parrying) and it would define rogues more as a class.