Mature and rational discussion re: itemization in Pillars of Eternity

[Blaine]

One quibble I've yet to see mentioned (or at least explored in-depth) is how dry, regimented, uniform, and just overall utterly predictable the itemization can be in this game.

There's an orderly selection of food for every stat. They're all interchangeable with their counterparts, except for which stat is affected: Hot Sauce Hotdogs bestow +10 Endurance and +1 Might for 600 seconds, Teaberry Toasties bestow +10 Endurance and +1 Dexterity for 600 seconds, Ratburg Roasties bestow +10 Endurance and +1 Intelligence for 600 seconds, et cetera. Player-controlled enchants are the same, requiring one each of three categories of ingredients and some skrilla to make: 1 Bibblydoo, 1 Smitherwidden, 1 Zambone and 200 copper for +4 Accuracy on anything; 1 Ziprock, 1 Dungerang, 1 Smitheepop, and 200 copper for 1.15x damage on anything; 1 Erdyskronk, 1 Shinnyzoom, 1 Cropadonk, and 1200 copper for +4 and 1.15x together; 1 Flammensmurfer, 1 Adracadabra, 1 Koolkrepuscle, and 300 copper to add a fire effect; 1 Snakesnack, 1 Opa-opal, 1 Flimmyflam, and 300 copper to add a poison effect....

Almost every single crafting ingredient is pretty much interchangeable. Oh, another plant! +1 to a slot of one or more recipes. Of course the ingredients are really only a gateway to unlocking the enchant so you can pay a X00(0) copper for it.

Weapons and armor, well, it's a flat-out case of six of one, half a dozen of the other. Trade DR incrementally for slower action recovery, and that's the whole armor system. Weapon deals more damage, it's slower; has more damage types, less overall damage; ranged, slower overall; short-range ranged, get a DR penetration bonus or fire/reload slightly faster; and on and on. Not to mention, the enchanted items you find have sometimes one unique enchantment (maybe more in exceptional cases), but are otherwise just about the same as their non-special counterparts. +5 Deflection rings, +5 all resistances rings/capes, +10 or +15 to one stat rings/medallions/gloves, and so on are much more common in the first half.

Jeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeesus fucking Christmas cocks, it's like a severely autistic child had at the game, except instead of arranging the marshmallows in his Lucky Charms into perfectly straight and sorted columns surrounded by concentric rings of grain nuggets, instead he meticulously arranged and straightened everything about the game mechanics.

Baldur's Gate 2 and Planescape: Torment were MUCH more organic with their itemization. They were nothing like this. This system feels planned, artificial, cadenced, paced, deliberate, predictable, mundane, controlled. I think part of it is that character levels are pretty low, so you won't be finding wildly differentiated enchanted items... but that's not all of it. Most of it was this harebrained quest for perfect balance with absolutely no cheesing and nothing shitty, nothing too powerful, everything's got to be as good as (interchangeable with) everything else.

 

[Gord]

I think food should be left out of this discussion. Just consider them flavor items. You can use them to minmax some chars a bit further, but ultimately they are inconsequential.
I think they just have effects on them to not make them completely useless junk items as in almost every other (c)RPG out there.

 

[Blaine]

food

flavor items

The thread has already reached its peak. This is the high point. It's only downhill from here, folks.

 

[Ellef]

Any game with an enchanting system was bound to end up in one big homogeneous pile of inconsequential loot. It was the one of the biggest departures from the IE games and I hated it from the day they mentioned it.

I'm lvl 7 and I haven't found any loot to be excited about because I can just craft it myself from 5 troll bladders and 7 wicht cloacas, since we wouldn't want someone to not have a perfectly viable weapon of their choice at every level.

 

[Gord]

Well, it does have some uniques items at least, with IE-like descriptions and shit. In that regard it's better than, say, D:OS.
Problem is that most of the time (there are a few exceptions, imo) they don't really stand out much.

 

[belated]

I've just found a few unique items so far, but in all cases they seem to have enchantments that I could just as easily add to a weapon myself. Is this the case for all unique items? Are there no unique effects or anything about them apart from the name/description?

Closest so far is an armour with what appears to the an upgraded version of the "Preservation" enchantment that can only be added to shields by the player... (Unless the wiki is wrong in this as in so many other areas of course.)

 

[Trodat]

15 hours in and the most interesting equipment could be bought from a merchant in Defiance Bay.

Problem with the itemization is this:

Gloves with +5 accuracy when your accuracy is already 43. Wow, interesting, much. We were able to convince Obsidian not to include durabilities but too bad that The System is more important than unique items.

 

[vorvek]

Gloves with +5 accuracy when your accuracy is already 43.

That's a +1 to hit in d20.

 

[Grunker]

My concern before starting this game was itemization. It has since changed to writing, but itemization comes in at solid #2. It's not that it's bad, really, as much as mediocre. It is outdone slightly even by the fairly lowkey itemization of Baldur's Gate. However overall I'd say those two games are pretty comparable as far as itemization goes.

Also crafting is meh. It somewhat rewards hoarding. Why do Obisidian insist of changing crafting formulas when they themselves created the most functional crafting system in a while in KotOR 2? That game had a system that a) did not compete with other systems and b) encouraged you to upgrade items as soon as you found upgrades.

1Gloves with +5 accuracy when your accuracy is already 43. Wow, interesting, much

I wonder whether you have any idea how the system works.

EDIT: ninja'd by vorvek

 

[Trodat]

Gloves with +5 accuracy when your accuracy is already 43.

That's a +1 to hit in d20.

Maybe, but bloated numbers make uninteresting systems. Just look at WoW, how are you supposed to be excited about anything when your stamina or whatever is 349410 and your crits hit 695903?

 

[Gord]

Gloves with +5 accuracy when your accuracy is already 43.

That's a +1 to hit in d20.

Maybe, but bloated numbers make uninteresting systems. Just look at WoW, how are you supposed to be excited about anything when your stamina or whatever is 349410 and your crits hit 695903?

This is definitely true, but for the most part PoE is still ok, I think. Keeping the example, it's the same like 9 base accuracy and getting a +1 bonus to it (in a game based on D20s). Not that far from most PnP systems.

 

[vorvek]

Gloves with +5 accuracy when your accuracy is already 43.

That's a +1 to hit in d20.

Maybe, but bloated numbers make uninteresting systems. Just look at WoW, how are you supposed to be excited about anything when your stamina or whatever is 349410 and your crits hit 695903?

The game is pretty much D100, though, like many PnP RPGs people play everyday without the need of supercomputers, where a 5% increase in your chances to succeed is often noticeable enough.

Just pointing that out, though, I don't think the itemization in the game is particularly interesting, especially if you play through the Endless Paths, since you come out of them full of precious gems to make all your gear superb quality + mods.

 

[MrMarbles]

Baldur's Gate 2 and Planescape: Torment were MUCH more organic with their itemization. They were nothing like this. This system feels planned, artificial, cadenced, paced, deliberate, predictable, mundane, controlled.

I agree completely. I started playing PoE in the hopes of another "sweet finally killed Firkraag oh shit what sword is that" or "can't wait to afford that stuff from the Adventurer's mart" moment, but have had none so far.

I think the unique itemization in the old IE games also really added to replayability. Finding a unique scimitar/spear/shield/helm/whatever was enough to make you start planning a build around it.

 

[Scroo]

Loot really is kinda boring. Not that it's horribly bad, it's just... boring. Which isn't too great since there really needs to be an incentive to clear dungeons and stuff - no kill xp, boring loot you can easily create or even surpass yourself. The trash mobs themselves surely aren't an incentive, that's for sure.

 

[MrMarbles]

I just started reminiscing about The Deck of Many Things, that was some god-level gud loot. Maybe Obsidian can up the ante in an expansion.

 

[Stompa]

So far the most exciting item I've found was a war bow that casts Jolting Touch on hit (though apparently it does that with some hidden random chance). Most of the time items come in with a bunch of enchants you can apply yourself with only a few having something unique. Can't tell the purpose of Damaging\Accurate enchants - the usual Fine\Exceptional\Superb gives both bonuses at the same time (good thing you can re-enchant those away). Slaying category is unclear, I don't know what the fuck is Wilder and how is it different from Beast, and bestiary is not telling me types of monsters, the only thing I know so far is that drakes are considered Beasts ('cause Drake's Bell has Beast Slaying enchant).

What I really don't understand is why those generic bonuses like Speed, DR Reduction and extra crit damage are unavailable as recipes. The items have 4 enchant slots, but if you customize some lowly dagger, you'll always end up with only 3 filled. It's not like that shit is interesting anyway.

 

[Nikaido]

Baldur's Gate 2 and Planescape: Torment were MUCH more organic with their itemization. They were nothing like this. This system feels planned, artificial, cadenced, paced, deliberate, predictable, mundane, controlled.

I agree completely. I started playing PoE in the hopes of another "sweet finally killed Firkraag oh shit what sword is that" or "can't wait to afford that stuff from the Adventurer's mart" moment, but have had none so far.

I think the unique itemization in the old IE games also really added to replayability. Finding a unique scimitar/spear/shield/helm/whatever was enough to make you start planning a build aorund it.

Ahhh, the fun of making clericzilla (Berserker/Cleric in the case of BG2) dual wielding flail of ages mh / crom faeyr oh. The kind of thing that doesn't really break the balance of a fresh experience, as the likelihood of finding, crafting both weapons AND having built your character to be able to dual wield both in a first, blind playthrough is.. impossible? but it really does give you something to look forward to the next time you play. BG2 is the closest you can get to experiencing the Clericzilla munchkin archetype in a cRPG. Which is a fitting godly build in a setting that has you ending the game as a God.

 

[Blaine]

Any game with an enchanting system was bound to end up in one big homogeneous pile of inconsequential loot.

Nigga, look at your avatar. Look at it. LOOK!

Underrail has something akin to a crafting and enchantment system, except it's in fact much more in-depth and nuanced... and the items and equipment in Underrail are cool and interesting as fuck. There's still an element of shittier early-game weapons and armor becoming obsolete, but within their specific category type, there's all kinds of cool shit to do.

Did you just pick that avatar because it looks cool?

 

[felipepepe]

I'm very butthurt that it took me almost 30 hours to get a loading screen tip telling me that bonuses from equipment don't stack. Having a +3 Might Glove and a +1 Might Helmet makes the game ignore the helmet. But weapon & shields are an exception, you can have a +3 Might Glove and a +2 Might Sword and get +5 Might.

Also, some items are extremely rare. I'm at the end-game, doing a completionist run, and I found like 8 magical belts and 7 magical helmets. That's it. Éder is still using a pimp feathered hat, because I found nothing better for him to use. Meanwhile, there are four billion magical cloaks and necklaces. Same thing with weapons. Found many unique sabers, swords and rapiers, but not a single goddamn pike so far...

 

[Ellef]

Any game with an enchanting system was bound to end up in one big homogeneous pile of inconsequential loot.

Nigga, look at your avatar. Look at it. LOOK!

Underrail has something akin to a crafting and enchantment system, except it's in fact much more in-depth and nuanced... and the items and equipment in Underrail are cool and interesting as fuck. There's still an element of shittier early-game weapons and armor becoming obsolete, but within their specific category type, there's all kinds of cool shit to do.

Did you just pick that avatar because it looks cool?

Crafting in a post apocalyptic game is more about surviving with the bare minimum resources and building something worthwhile. They're not loot driven games like a high fantasy dungeon crawlers like POE, to me they're two separate issues.

 

[Grunker]

I'm very butthurt that it took me almost 30 hours to get a loading screen tip telling me that bonuses from equipment don't stack.

It says so in the manual and there's a very clear, greyed out representation on the character sheet

 

[Stompa]

Meanwhile, there are four billion magical cloaks and necklaces. Same thing with weapons. Found many unique sabers, swords and rapiers, but not a single goddamn pike so far...

Dyrford's armorer is selling a unique pike, pretty good one even. Now, unique crossbows and arbalests - that's something as rare as dodo in PoE.

 

[Blaine]

I'm very butthurt that it took me almost 30 hours to get a loading screen tip telling me that bonuses from equipment don't stack.

I'm lucky: I noticed it when swapping rings, cloaks, and gloves around to assign the bonuses as I wanted them spread, and I had my eye on the defenses display while I was doing it. At first I thought there was a display delay or glitch, but then I realized that, no, you only get the highest bonus of the same kind and they don't stack. There aren't just stacking penalties; you don't get shit-all.

I knew then that Josh's smug, vegan pencil cock had fucked me up the ass yet again. I didn't even get the slightest bit mad. My face drooped a bit in disappointment, and my hatred of the concept of "balance" in RPGs grew two sizes that day, but then I moved on.

Spending the first 20 hours of this game with random forgettable knickknacks spread between characters to avoid stacking annulments is so exciting.

Dyrford's armorer is selling a unique pike, pretty good one even. Now, unique crossbows and arbalests - that's something as rare as dodo in PoE.

Well, that's not really an acceptable alternative. Good weapons from shops cost half your money, so it's almost never a good idea to buy them.

Josh was butthurt that people were able to afford the cool weapons in BG2 and Torment, so he's ensured you can only look at them unless you want to severely retard your stronghold upkeep and enchantment budget. That is literally the way he thinks, fully supported by certain persons who believe that if you get one nice thing, you should be punished and made miserable for it. Otherwise, you might have fun, and that would just be imbalanced.

 

[roshan]

That's a +1 to hit in d20.

Two issues with that logic.

1. +1 to hit in DND was a clear bonus in combat as there was only one system that you could maximize that determined your effectiveness in combat - AC versus BAB. Damage was usually static, same with number of attacks per round. In POE we're talking about accuracy versus deflection, damage versus multiple thresholds, attack speed, and on top of all that the interrupt system.

2. +1 was situational. A level 20 fighter would have +20 BAB, +1 from weapon focus, +5 from enchantments on the weapon, +8 from strength, and so on and so forth. In that respect the +1 would barely come into play especially since enemy AC levels usually didn't scale upwards enough to keep pace with your BAB bonuses. But at low levels, it could theoretically increase your damage output by as much as 100%. In PoE with so many systems, all of them featuring bloated numbers, it's hard to tell at all how much meaning that +5 has.

 

[Sensuki]

I agree that itemization is boring. We've known it was going to be for a while. In the very early betas you could enchant items with pretty much everything in the game and none of the uniques were in fact, unique. Based on that feedback they severely limited the enchantment system to what it is now.

On top of that, this is the equipment that I've been using since about level 4 - Arbalests, Plate Armor, Robes, Clothing (No Armor), Dual Wield Spears, Maces, Weapon and Shield and I've got an Estoc that I've pulled out a couple of times too.

There's no point using 1H style, light weapons, bows, crossbows, pistols or even arquebuses. The reason is because once DR gets over a certain point, using anything that does low damage is just not worth it. An Arbalest has no accuracy penalty does more damage through DR than an Arquebus does anyway and it can knock enemies prone on a crit. Why use an Arquebus ?