[deleted]

[Alex]

(...snip)
I liked skill points based on Int. Very sensible.
(snip...)

I like having skill points based on int, but to be fair, it doesn't make much sense for many of the skills.

I mean, it makes sense that a very smart person would learn science or medicine more quickly, and even that he would be able to learn both at the same rate a less gifted character would only learn one. But physical skills like throwing, aiming (part of the various gun skills) and melee, intelligence seems rather secondary. Those skills are more about getting used to do things a certain way than they are about learning anything concrete. Other skills like gambling and speech also seem less dependent on intelligence. I mean, of course if you are intelligent, you can understand the principles behind these faster, but actually developing a poker face, or the right body language to convince someone is a different story.

 

[Mastermind]

Trainers are my favorite idea when the world design support them. For example Gothic/Gothic 2 centers around a few towns you keep going back to and most trainers will logically be around those while Morrowind had all the settlements be fairly easy to reach from one-another, even if some of the best trainers are in the middle of nowhere you should always be able to find a trainer for a skill with reasonable travel (though the base game only had 2 spear trainers, one of which was behind a locked door next to a bunch of guards, and no way to tell a trainer's skill level) however it couldn't just be copy-pasted in something like Fallout where you wander, possibly on a time-limit, and often never go back to towns once you are done and some quest solutions could very reasonably lock off trainers with no replacement. Combining it with books (the ancient scroll allows you to learn some techniques without a trainer) could be an interesting refinement.

The spear trainer issue sounds minor, the Enchant master trainer was hostile by default so you could easily kill him and not know who he was, which is compounded by the fact that enchant levels so horribly slow that it's pretty much impossible to raise it without training.

Jade Empire had an interesting system where you could pay almost any merchant in the game to teach you something that helped your marital arts (be it actual martial arts techniques or wax-on/wax-off style lessons you could apply to combat), but it was implemented terribly so there wasn't a point in buying any of them (all but the quest rewards and a few end-game ones increased derived stats you start with hundreds of by single digit amounts while not having equally low prices, not that silver had any real use in the game).

Of course there was a point to buying them, they made you stronger (and carried into future games).

 

[lukaszek]

deterministic system > RNG

 

[Atlantico]

Personally I like it when leveling up means something. Baldur's Gate 1, the levels in that game are great.

Agreed, Baldur's Gate had a wonderful feel of progression and sense of advancement through leveling. It is one of AD&Ds primary strengths that the first 10 levels or so are meticulously hand-crafted so it always feels right.

I also like the GURPS system like it was presented in Fallout 1/2. Good stuff also.

 

[baturinsky]

I prefer a combination of different methods. Some stats/perks from practice, some from quests and objectives, some by player's choice.

 

[Nekot-The-Brave]

I prefer a combination of different methods. Some stats/perks from practice, some from quests and objectives, some by player's choice.

I like that idea of perks/stats from quests, that can be interesting and useful if done right, or just shitty (as in, shoveling shit i.e. Fallout 2).

 

[deuxhero]

Of course there was a point to buying them, they made you stronger (and carried into future games).

Well there's a point, but not a very strong one

 

[DavidBVal]

Okay, just for completion's sake, and sliding into PnP territory: Rolemaster.

Leveling up was rather fun, if laborious. In the first levels, you had decent chances to raise your stats up to their "potential" values, which was something players always looked forward to. And you had always tons of skill points to distribute, and maybe new spell lists to learn. Even if the system itself had lots of problems, I think it was the most satisfying to players, as it made them feel a big advancement on each level, IMHO more noticeable than D&D.

 

[Alex]

Okay, just for completion's sake, and sliding into PnP territory: Rolemaster.

Leveling up was rather fun, if laborious. In the first levels, you had decent chances to raise your stats up to their "potential" values, which was something players always looked forward to. And you had always tons of skill points to distribute, and maybe new spell lists to learn. Even if the system itself had lots of problems, I think it was the most satisfying to players, as it made them feel a big advancement on each level, IMHO more noticeable than D&D.

Well, maybe for non spellcasting classes. But D&D's mage had game changer spells that few other games have managed to emulate. Getting something like stone to mud, plane shift, fireball (especially if you use the rules where it expands to fill its volume, depending on roof height, you can easily fill 465 3ft squares), magic jar, polymorph any object, wish, among many others.

 

[Mastermind]

Well there's a point, but not a very strong one

Isn't getting stronger the whole point of improving your character? Especially in a game without a lot of things to do aside from a handful of attacks.

 

[Mastermind]

I like that idea of perks/stats from quests, that can be interesting and useful if done right, or just shitty (as in, shoveling shit i.e. Fallout 2).

I like it in theory but in practice I end up metagaming because the powergamer in me won't let me create a flawed character and it ends up taking away from the fun because instead of just playing and exploring organically I map out a playthrough to make sure I get all the attribute boosts in time (Fallout New Vegas is particularly notorious for this shit).

 

[deuxhero]

Isn't getting stronger the whole point of improving your character? Especially in a game without a lot of things to do aside from a handful of attacks.

Yes, but you don't actually get stronger enough to notice. Dumping all your money into health increases won't let you survive another attack, let alone a string

 

[Mastermind]

Maybe not with 1 technique (except some of the monster ones like the +50 techniques you can buy near the end of the game) but there's a lot of them and they add up (the same could be said of games with wide skill ranges too). And they carry across future games so you could, in theory, make a character with very high stats depending on whether you're willing to give it the old skyway try.

 

[AArmanFV]

Haven't played Wasteland yet

Well, it could be your game.

 

[Ellef]

I hate any and all learn-by-doing system like in the Elder Scrolls games.

Multi-classing/prestige classes are probably my favourite systems, i want fucktonnes of options, even if some are wildly imbalanced.

 

[T. Reich]

My favourite leveling systems are from (in order of decreasing importance for me): Arcanum, FO1/2, G2:NotR, Wizardry 8, M&M.

My favourite type of leveling is discrete - where you first have to "level up" before you get stronger - so that each power increase is noticeable.
At level up you should be allowed to manually increase the stats of your liking, ideally any of them (like in Arcanum).
Moreover, the system should also feature either the teacher-based skill tier system (Arcanum, M&M, Gothics) when you could at certain skill levels be taught to be better at those skills and gain special skills/feats/bonuses.
Or the system should have a sort of "perk"-based system, wherein each several level-ups you could pick/learn one extra perk that allows you to do something special, provided you meet the stat+skill requirements for it.

I'm ok with use-based leveling systems, but they are too easily exploitable.
I also have a strong preference for classless systems, though class-based systems are ok, as long as they are not too constraining.
I'm totally not ok with "RPG" systems that do the stat increases automatically for you.

 

[Desur]

Points to spend with too many (meaningful) skill to actually max them all. Some variation across classes is always welcome (e.g. rouge-ish characters getting to decide how to specialize) but should be balanced so that in the end all of the characters get a comparable number of choices. Also some sort of specialization at higher levels granting access to more power at the cost of versality.

 

[Shadenuat]

Something like Wizardry 8 but with an option to choose unique perks when you hit particular skill thresholds, I would like that. And with prestige classes and multi classing playing major role (one thing I don't like about Wiz8 is how most of character development gets set during character creation, I think previous Wizardries or games like Wizard&Warriors with their random stat gains and unlockable classes spiced that up more; stuff like your actions/reputation/particular skill selection opening secret classes would be great too imo).

 

[Damned Registrations]

I should add that one of my favourite things with the old ToME's leveling system was that different classes shared most of the skill tree, but at different aptitudes. A warrior could max stealth just like a rogue could, the difference was that the rogue could do it at far less cost in skill points. I like this kind of system because it lends itself well to organic character growth, where you decide to focus on a particular aspect because of your circumstances (having trouble with an area, or you found certain equipment, etc.) as opposed to just following a planned build because it's your only real option.

 

[Obviousplant]

I like it when a single change in a stat is meaningful (Fallout). On the opposite end of things, I hate RPGs/"RPGs" where you're constantly gaining new gear or upgrades that are so insignificant (changing a sword with 95 str and 27 agility to one with 100 str and 26 agility) that it's not worth your time to min max your character. Every game with Diablo inspired loot, Pillars of Eternity also felt like that to me. Any RPG where upgrading your character feels like pointless busywork rather than exciting is a bad video game in my opinion.

So in an ideal leveling up system stats dont go up when you level. But having set stats from the start can limit the depth of character building, so I guess that a System Shock 2 style shared resource pool is good. Though what works for single character RPGs might not work in RPGs where you control a party. I love Wizardry 8, but the way stats are handled in it feels a bit shallow.

 

[Zombra]

I think "levels" are stupid. I prefer a pure learn-by-doing system like in the pen-and-paper game Burning Wheel, or in ... that's right ... the original Jagged Alliance series (JA1, JADG, JA2). Elder Scrolls has it almost right except for stupid exploits (backstab an invulnerable NPC 400 times to max your Sneak skill!) and it still uses levels. Wasteland also used LBD, again in conjunction with a traditional xp system (sadly) and it also had dumb exploits (run up and down this hill at no risk to max your Climb skill). LBD is just the best way around for making me feel like what I do in the game matters. None of this, I need to get better at my Accounting skill, so I'll go kill boars until I level up.

Picking Perks is fun and impactful in a good way, but doesn't need to be tied to character levels either - much better to tie them to skill levels. Get to Lockpicking-50, choose a new Lockpicking Perk.

I just don't like levels. There's no need in an RPG for me to see these numbers and go, oh, I'm level 4 and that guy is level 8, therefore I can't fight him. I'd much rather see, I'm an awesome swordsman, but he's well-practiced with a crossbow, so I'd better get close before I attack.

I also don't get why people say they want full control over allocating points don't subscribe to learn by doing. You totally choose how your character levels up in Elder Scrolls, for example - you do the things you want to increase. To me that's way more fun and feels way more powerful and involved than clicking numbers on a menu.

Post not fully thought through yet, clicking "Post Reply" anyway. Will further refine upon inevitable backlash.

 

[Nekot-The-Brave]

I think "levels" are stupid. I prefer a pure learn-by-doing system like in the pen-and-paper game Burning Wheel, or in ... that's right ... the original Jagged Alliance series (JA1, JADG, JA2). Elder Scrolls has it almost right except for stupid exploits (backstab an invulnerable NPC 400 times to max your Sneak skill!) and it still uses levels. Wasteland also used LBD, again in conjunction with a traditional xp system (sadly) and it also had dumb exploits (run up and down this hill at no risk to max your Climb skill). LBD is just the best way around for making me feel like what I do in the game matters. None of this, I need to get better at my Accounting skill, so I'll go kill boars until I level up.

Makes sense.

Previously, I've attempted to create a RP system called RIPE RP that addressed the way characters 'leveled up' to be more organic instead of 'I'm level 10', and be based around skill usage and such.

 

[Clockwork Knight]

Unfortunately the "learn by use" system doesn't feel as natural as it looks in paper. Instead of using whatever resources I have in hand, I have to make sure I keep killing baddies with say, spears and ice magic because this is what this character is investing in.

levelup across the board is second most, though more like bad than idiotic. It feels impersonal.

I don't mind the "all stats go up a little" system too much, since outside of gimmick runs that's usually what I end up doing anyway, and you can usually still customize the equipment and spells/abilities/whatever.

 

[Damned Registrations]

Learn by doing always devolves into some sort of exploit. It's just a matter of what the system will consider too much of an exploit. If jumping safely is too big an exploit, then the exploit allowed will be jumps that injure you slightly. If 20 jumps per hour is too many then you'll do 19. You're still going to find some way to do that shit over and over to grind points, just like in real life where people train by doing repetitive boring shit. Nobody trained to win the gold medal in the 100m dash by racing bears.

The only scenario where a LBD system works at all is one where the benefits of doing shit are minor compared to the benefits of doing other shit. If spending an hour practicing your jumping gives you less extra jump height than spending an hour killing risky enemies for gold to pay a trainer or buy new shoes, then people will do that shit instead and maybe get a few jumps in along the way.

 

[Zombra]

Unfortunately the "learn by use" system doesn't feel as natural as it looks in paper. Instead of using whatever resources I have in hand, I have to make sure I keep killing baddies with say, spears and ice magic because this is what this character is investing in.

I think this is most problematic in "level scaled" hybrid systems like Elder Scrolls. If the game assumes that a level 30 character has 100% in their main weapon and balances level 30 monsters accordingly, then yeah, you better grind up that Spear skill as much as you can instead of learning a broad base of stuff. But in a system that doesn't use levels this assumption is much less of an issue.

Learn by doing has often in the past devolved into some sort of exploit.

Fixed.

That doesn't mean LBD is a bad idea, it just means it's hard to balance. For every broken Acrobatics or Sneak advancement system there are a dozen skills that increase just fine. Yes, at some point the player can figure out the optimal way to increase any given skill, but this is no different from a player figuring out the optimal way to gain xp/hour. Games have systems and that's OK.

The only scenario where a LBD system works at all is one where the benefits of [grinding exploits] are minor compared to the benefits of [playing the game normally].

In other words, LBD works when the game isn't balanced for shit. I'm OK with that.