Let's Play VtM: Wild Nights - Chapter 10

[ironyuri]

I haven't been debating much lately eventhough I was one of the original advocates for posting strong arguments for positions. Apologies to my bros.

I think our next step is easy:

Once we clean up the Sabbat problem, we have to get back to Rannigan (Rannigan begin again). Rannigan is important for two reasons:

Whatever knowledge it is he has (and perhaps why he was seeking us out- does he want to kill Sommers, or seek his aid? We need to find out.)

His position in the war. The war began because du Marchais said Rannigan had been killed by Sabbat. If we find Rannigan, the Prince will lose face, but if we don't, we'll have failed our mission.

Our mission from the Prince has never been mooted. We are still supposed to find him or his remains and alert the Prince to them. Thu that's what we should be doing next. Whether or not we decide to take him to the Prince discreetly once we figure this shit out will be up to a vote, but right now our power depends on striking a fine balance between the Prince and Earnes.

At the crucial moment I believe we should not betray Earnes, but not the Prince either. What we want to do is negotiate. du Marchais will take the fall for leading the Prince into the war. The Prince retains his position and power, but Earnes gains some power and we play kingmaker. That should be our goal and that should be why we lied. We must convince Earnes of the necessity of not moving against the Prince in her magna carta scheme too early. Despite the war, he's still important.

 

[laclongquan]

Yep. Follow one side and we lose influence on the other. By staying neutral and manipulate events to our liking will we have hope of advance far and fast.

On the Prince's side, if we join formally, we will have to contend ourselves with some other older and more powerful barons other than Du Marchais. Not many, but there is. More important is that we lose access to the Eames' faction.

On the Eames' side, if we join in we will lose access to Erika, rendering all our efforts to cultivate her moot. And the barons on this side are more numerous and powerful than other side.

By staying neutral not visibly in any corner, all sides have needs and wants that they hope can manipulate us into doing for them, therefore facilitate our way into secrets and powers.

 

[Esquilax]

I think our next step is easy:

Once we clean up the Sabbat problem, we have to get back to Rannigan (Rannigan begin again). Rannigan is important for two reasons:

Whatever knowledge it is he has (and perhaps why he was seeking us out- does he want to kill Sommers, or seek his aid? We need to find out.)

His position in the war. The war began because du Marchais said Rannigan had been killed by Sabbat. If we find Rannigan, the Prince will lose face, but if we don't, we'll have failed our mission.

Our mission from the Prince has never been mooted. We are still supposed to find him or his remains and alert the Prince to them. Thu that's what we should be doing next. Whether or not we decide to take him to the Prince discreetly once we figure this shit out will be up to a vote, but right now our power depends on striking a fine balance between the Prince and Earnes.

At the crucial moment I believe we should not betray Earnes, but not the Prince either. What we want to do is negotiate. du Marchais will take the fall for leading the Prince into the war. The Prince retains his position and power, but Earnes gains some power and we play kingmaker. That should be our goal and that should be why we lied. We must convince Earnes of the necessity of not moving against the Prince in her magna carta scheme too early. Despite the war, he's still important.

I think that move has some drawbacks, ironyuri. Doing that will leave us in between the Turcov-Eames faction and the Prince's faction without having much support from either. It's a half-measure. The problem is that we've entangled ourselves with Eames pretty heavily at this point by accepting her invitation and now lying to her, so I'm not sure if it's a smart move to play mediator on this one. That would be more feasible if we had a bit more distance from Eames.

Perhaps we can still play the mediator game, but first we need to stir up some distrust in the alliance that Eames and Turcov have got going on. If she gets mad, let her get mad at him. Turcov will be angered that our meddling has resulted in his man not becoming Sheriff, so I think we ought to bring him to our side somehow. This is pretty ruthless, but perhaps we should arrange with the Prince to have Turcov's candidate killed and to then imply Eames might have been involved. Alternatively, maybe a little bit of divide and conquer is in order: offer Turcov part of Mayfair in exchange for supporting the Prince. I'd prefer the latter idea because I don't like the idea of killing an innocent and I think that a true master doesn't need to use crude methods to get ahead. My point is, I want to drive a wedge between them so that Eames has her attention on Turcov and not us.

As far as the Prince losing face, not necessarily. We've just won a huge victory for him, so support will be at an all-time high. Since the war is going to calm down in the coming nights, it will be politically safe for the Prince to declare that his treacherous advisor du Marchais fed him false information for a Barony.

EDIT: How about this; plausible deniability. Let Turcov have Whitehall in exchange for supporting the Prince and keeping Erika. Then, we give a neutral speech that doesn't favour any one side. If Eames gets mad, we can say that Erika called and told us that the Prince knew about her attempt at a coup. Eames will believe us and begin plotting against Turcov, Turcov will owe us a favour, the Prince be on our side, and Erika will be our steadfast ally. I know that some of you are upset at giving up Whitehall, but really, in doing this, we're taking two steps back in order to move ten steps forward. Let's not be so married to acquiring a silly title - in doing this, we're earning far more in the way of real power. We may not have a fancy title, but we'll have what really matters: influence. We'll become Baron eventually, but I think it's important to not let that goal blind us. I'd propose an action plan like this:

Step 1: Negotiate with the Prince, tell him about the coup, arrange to have du Marchais scapegoated and to offer up Whitehall to Turcov.
Step 2: Talk to Turcov and entice him away from Eames by offering Whitehall. More territory is a better deal for him than just having his man as Sheriff, and he's probably in this alliance with Eames more out of self-interest than loyalty, so he'll bite.
Step 3: Right before the speech, call Eames in a panic, telling her that Turcov has turned on her. Tell her that it's time for plan B, and to salvage things by giving her some credit in the speech but not making any incendiary comments about the Prince.
Step 4: Profit! Play these sides against each other.

 

[SCO]

Yep. Follow one side and we lose influence on the other. By staying neutral and manipulate events to our liking will we have hope of advance far and fast.

On the Prince's side, if we join formally, we will have to contend ourselves with some other older and more powerful barons other than Du Marchais. Not many, but there is. More important is that we lose access to the Eames' faction.

On the Eames' side, if we join in we will lose access to Erika, rendering all our efforts to cultivate her moot. And the barons on this side are more numerous and powerful than other side.

By staying neutral not visibly in any corner, all sides have needs and wants that they hope can manipulate us into doing for them, therefore facilitate our way into secrets and powers.

But you lied remember? How will you convince her?

 

[laclongquan]

Convince about what?

At that time we were just recovering from heavy injuries, staying in her safehouse, and listening to her immediate plan. Say yes (lie), is the only way to get out of that situation without actually commit to anything. Say no is suicidal. Say yes (true) is cutting our links with Erika and others, plus showing that we just be weak puppets for her.

We dont need to convince Eames of going back to Prince's side or anything. The fact is that we had manipulated so that her people joined Erika's people in a victorious battle, therefore make it a proven fact that she joined this war. It will be hard for her to condemn Prince of initiating this war without awkwardness. Her only course of action is accuse Prince of being incompetent which is a hardly a cause for impeachment. Especially if we dont state publicly that Kirkberg had done some dirty deeds to one of the baron that lead to this war. No no. IN this matter we hold many cards on hand.

A side note: it's not clear that Oscar works for Eames. Sommers speculated so but there's no fact. There is fact that Oscar spy on him for somebody, just not sure if that's Eames. Therefore it's unsure that Eames know about Terrance.

We dont need to convince Erika of anything. Our actions speak louder than words: we planned and excuted one successful operation that cut off the Sabbat's head in London, we judge one criminal (Karthik) of violating Masquerade and excute him effectively and without drama, moreoever, we didnt blow the whistle on Kirkberg's dirty job on Terrance. The Prince should welcome us with praises and rewards if he know what's good for him.

We are in good position to decide the course of the next plays. I'm dying to know the next update.

 

[SCO]

It occurs to me that Wilkinson is the only thread of sabbat knowledge we have now. If we want to find out how the vaulderie operates, we should interrogate her, but if we do that we shouldn't let her either live or leave.

She would sell that we are interested to the sabbat to try to save her life. If she does nothing, she's probably going to be eaten on one of their ghastly festivals.

 

[Orgasm]

Azael a
Storyfag a
laclongquan a
Erebus a
Sergiu64 a
Kz3r0 a
Esquilax a
Kashmir Slippers a
GarfunkeL a
Excidium a
wjw a

Undead Phoenix b
Lord Andre b
root b
Orgasm b
ironyuri b

A fucking hopeless situation...

 

[SCO]

I b.

 

[Esquilax]

Fuck it, I'm flip-flopping to B. We're already in deep shit with the Sabbat, may as well wallow in it. Dubrik seems pretty damn overeager to talk to us, considering he called us not five minutes after Angelos was ashed, and he may not hold up his end of the deal. Yeah, while I definitely don't want some fucking Black Hand Assassins on our ass, hopefully the combined might of the Sheriff and the army of young Kindred that we'll gain from this gambit will be enough to protect ourselves when the time comes. We may need to bro up and learn a few combat skills ourselves from Erika, I'm certain she'll be happy to oblige.

I can't help but think that by killing the Sculptor, we've furthered Dubrik's goals. I could tell from the update where we first met the Sculptor that he and Dubrik had a tense relationship, and the Bishop likely saw him as a young upstart, sorta like Anthony. He probably wanted Angelos dead so that he could take advantage of the ensuing power vacuum there, and Wilkinson is somehow important in that goal. Perhaps she knows something important that he doesn't, which is why he's decided to manipulate/threaten us into handing her off for info that might not mean dick. I like the idea of learning the Vaulderie in case Eames gets us fully bloodbound, it's a good insurance policy. There are other ways of getting around it, but it's nice to have some knowledge like that just in case.

EDIT: I'm back to A. Let's ACCEPT DUBRIK'S OFFER.

 

[laclongquan]

Right! I beg you to reconsider:

My reasons are as follow:

1. Angelos is dead meaning Londonium sabbat territory get a power vacuum. Even if there's a successor ready to take his place, he cant do so effectively immediately. If we let Amanda back to Dubrik, he will have enough intel to mucking around London, causing trouble for that London group. This will weaken them, which mean it's good for us. If we keep her, Liverpool faction wont have enough data to mess around here effective, and that will allow the London's group recover with only us to contend with. Release her!

2. We dont really need two group of Sabbat assassins after our ass at the same time. The coming period is when we move around very much and we dont need our movement restricted by security concern. At the beginning we have Eddie and two Brujah muscles with only Dubrik after our head. If we keep Amanda, we will have Dubrik as well as London's native assassins to worry about while we lost one Brujah already. Less muscle, more threat, that is no good!

I repeat that our own resources are expended in this war. We really dont need double threats of death hover on our head.

 

[curry]

B

 

[Orgasm]

Kz3r0, you seem like a CHAOS guy, eh? How about you flipflop to THE CAUSE!? And leave behind that senseless "eh we give you your girl back like the faggy little ventrue we are" thing behind and act like a man would, hm? Then A-B will be tied.
Voting A just doesn't suit you. You quoted some guy saying that the spy is useless to us now, but there are just unlimited possibilities what you could do in a magic setting with a mysteriously important legal slave. Any of them is better than just letting her go. I mean, we killed the Sabbat Prince of London and want to plaster our name all over it. Whats there to lose...

Azael a
Storyfag a
laclongquan a
Erebus a
Sergiu64 a
Kz3r0 a
Kashmir Slippers a
GarfunkeL a
Excidium a
wjw a

Undead Phoenix b
Lord Andre b
root b
Orgasm b
ironyuri b
Esquilax b
SCO b
curry b

 

[laclongquan]

Because we are faggy little Ventrue. Acting out of your limitation will get you buttfucked, hard. It's like playing Ventrue but want to go toe-to-toe with a Brujah or challenge some Torreador hitman to a pistol contest. The mind simply boggles!

EDIT: "But I want to go toe-to-toe with a Brujah", "But I want to challenge Torreador to a quickdraw contest" you said? Well, my vamp, that's what our hirelings are for. doing the dirty deeds is just too much like honest work, esp for a Ventrue me.

 

[Orgasm]

Oh sweet, you took my advice and partly passed third grade english. Now don't interrupt with your imaginary drawbacks. I still have hopes to get what I want.

 

[Esquilax]

Kz3r0, you seem like a CHAOS guy, eh? How about you flipflop to THE CAUSE!? And leave behind that senseless "eh we give you your girl back like the faggy little ventrue we are" thing behind and act like a man would, hm? Then A-B will be tied.
Voting A just doesn't suit you. You quoted some guy saying that the spy is useless to us now, but there are just unlimited possibilities what you could do in a magic setting with a mysteriously important legal slave. Any of them is better than just letting her go. I mean, we killed the Sabbat Prince of London and want to plaster our name all over it. Whats there to lose...

laclongquan's posts may be a nightmare to read, but some of your arguments in favour of B have been pretty bad. Basically, it seems like you're suggesting that we refuse Dubrik's deal more as a point of pride rather than any real purpose. Having a single blood bonded servant (who will almost certainly be trying anything she can to slip the leash, considering she knows how to do a Vaulderie) doesn't justify having the entire Liverpool Sabbat coming after us. That's completely silly. And to make matters worse, I'm not even sure we can bloodbond her because of her previous vinculum bonds. Wilkinson is what you'd call a white elephant - the cost of keeping her around isn't proportional to her worth. If anything, what you're saying has made me consider going back to A. Sorry for changing my mind like that, but you are not presenting your case at all.

The question shouldn't be "why should we give Wilkinson to Dubrik"? The question should be "why should we keep her"? The arguments in favour of keeping her are (1) in order to withhold something important from Dubrik, (2) because you don't trust Dubrik's offer, and (3) because you want to learn the Vaulderie in order to prevent Eames from putting a full blood bond on us. (1) isn't fruitful because it doesn't really give us anything valuable in return and will put a world of shit above our heads considerably more than we have to deal with now. She has no real worth to us, we can't trust her, we possibly can't bond her, and even if we can, you can bet she'll try anything she can to get out of it. The reason you'd be keeping her is just so Dubrik can't, and that's just not good enough. (2) is reasonable, obviously we can't trust a Lasombra spymaster who likely allowed his comrade to fall into our trap. But then again, does not trusting him justify keeping Wilkinson around? (3) is interesting, but there are plenty of ways to get around a possible blood bond with Eames, such as either a mutual blood-bond with Erika/Eddie or finding a way to get Eames killed. So yeah, why should we keep her?

One big victory and you guys suddenly think we're important. We ain't shit yet, don't get cocky. We've got some potential and some fame to our name, but we aren't there yet. And it doesn't mean that we can start fucking with the wrong people. We've killed one important guy in the Sabbat, but he's just one man in an entire organization. I'm not alone in thinking that the prospect of having a significant portion of that organization turning a blind eye to us is probably a big advantage.

Also, what would you be hoping to get at long-term with B? We have Wilkinson... and then what? I'm not sure what it does for us strategically. With A, it would allow us to focus on our rivals in the Camarilla and leveraging our fame into establishing more contacts since we wouldn't have to be as preoccupied with the Sabbat coming after us. We might get some decent info from Dubrik out of it as well.

 

[Orgasm]

Kz3r0, you seem like a CHAOS guy, eh? How about you flipflop to THE CAUSE!? And leave behind that senseless "eh we give you your girl back like the faggy little ventrue we are" thing behind and act like a man would, hm? Then A-B will be tied.
Voting A just doesn't suit you. You quoted some guy saying that the spy is useless to us now, but there are just unlimited possibilities what you could do in a magic setting with a mysteriously important legal slave. Any of them is better than just letting her go. I mean, we killed the Sabbat Prince of London and want to plaster our name all over it. Whats there to lose...

(...)

Alright, just this time, once.

some of your arguments in favour of B have been pretty bad

Its probably because I never argued about anything. Thats the whole fundamental thing about if-games. You don't know what comes after you choose ABC. Its not possible. Its not even probable to be able to guess what happens. And if it was, I would not be playing. So, I don't argue, it does not help with achieving a future goal of some sort. Or can you reliably say what will happen if A/B/C wins?

But lets forget this for a moment and indulge in fluffy talking.

you're suggesting that we refuse Dubrik's deal more as a point of pride rather than any real purpose

Its not pride to keep something somebody else wants. Its possible leverage. Especially under these circumstances. What in Gods name does he want with a low gen noname hoe?! Loyalty among Sab? Dont think so. Just for revenge? Meh, we would kill her anyway. I feel like its personal. And then that pathetic bluff with vengeful Old Ones coming after us. Kekeke.

who will almost certainly be trying anything she can to slip the leash

Heroin junkies don't try to slip the leash if its offered.

entire Liverpool Sabbat coming after us

You just killed the Sabbat Prince of London and want to scream at the top of you lungs about it. If Wilkinson is so important that the whole Liverpool Sabbat comes visit (on Dubs orders or just because they like her?), the more reason to keep her alive with us. Giving her away is a generous and honorable thing to do. But it does not give you anything. Dub seems like the clingy type. First the vase, now the girl. I demand a proper fucking exchange. First, he brings us something valuable and then maybe if we feel good about the thing, we return the girl, maybe even unharmed We don't throw it away...

The question shouldn't be "why should we give Wilkinson to Dubrik"? The question should be "why should we keep her"?

It essentially the same question. Why does he want her? Thats the core of it. Sacrificial lamb to the Sabbat for a dead Tz? Love bird? Is she some magical fairy with superpowers? Some sort of a personal thing makes the most sense. As a sacrifice, she is worthless and we have nothing to fear more than we already do. Superartifact on legs is a lame literary device. I dont buy it. So, its personal. And if it is, we keep her and dont give her back till we get something of worth first. Not some empty promises.

We've got some potential and some fame to our name, but we aren't there yet. And it doesn't mean that we can start fucking with the wrong people.

The Camarilla is a barely functioning "organization". The Sabbat is not. Its all vendettas and personal crap. And Dub's little spy in training hasn't met her final death yet. So let him come over with some (h)awksome info or artefacts if he wants her so badly.

Also, what would you be hoping to get at long-term with B? (...) With A, it would allow us to focus on our rivals in the Camarilla

We cant do both? grotsnik let us kill Angelos with some funny bomb plot, sacrificing only a noname dude who came from nowhere and walked straight into his suicide. I still dont even know if Tony and the Malk met before... I fucking hope it will have consequences.
There is no long term component in the Wilkinson subquest, except for an intimate friendship with Dub. Short-term we leverage something real out of him first before we even consider sending her back. Or we could practice our diablerie skills, eh root?

KZERO WHERE ART THOU!

 

[laclongquan]

[shaking head]

Orgasm sound like a college frat boy. A mobile cock, basically. Wall-o-text notwithstanding.

 

[Kz3r0]

Dubrik put a bounty on our head, and we get caught by Anarchs because of it, he also practically used us to eliminate Angelos, and in top of that easily found us, antagonize him is suicidal, cooperation instead can bring many fruits in the future.
You guys are too invested in that Camarilla Hero thingie, real power knows no boundaries such as loyalty, ideals and such.
Should also be noted that he should be really stupid letting us know how much he care for Wilkinson, maybe this is just a bait to test us, only fools take unnecessary risks for uncertain gains, get along with him for now.

 

[Lord Andre]

If all we do is play it safe, this is gonna' turn boring real quick. It's just a game, we should explore the more interesting options...

 

[Orgasm]

[shaking head]

Orgasm sound like a college frat boy. A mobile cock, basically. Wall-o-text notwithstanding.

I am curious, what expressions do you associate with college frat boys and how do college frat boys relate to mobile cocks?
You know what they say about superficial people?



Kz3r0, come on, how hard is it to call a dude who had a spy in his entourage. We are not antagonizing him. If anything its him making fucking demands as if we owe his majesty something. Let him dangle a little. Its not like this one is a live or die choice. It will have some consequences in the future but those aren't set in stone either. I even wrote your name by hand! That gotta count for something! Hell, even if you flipflop, someone can easily change that with 1 post...

 

[Erebus]

You know what would be hilarious ? Surgically inserting a bomb in Wilkinson and making it explode as soon as she gets close to the Bishop !

 

[Kz3r0]

Kz3r0, come on, how hard is it to call a dude who had a spy in his entourage. We are not antagonizing him. If anything its him making fucking demands as if we owe his majesty something. Let him dangle a little. Its not like this one is a live or die choice. It will have some consequences in the future but those aren't set in stone either. I even wrote your name by hand! That gotta count for something! Hell, even if you flipflop, someone can easily change that with 1 post...

But: I want to establish a contact with the Sabbat.

 

[laclongquan]

If all we do is play it safe, this is gonna' turn boring real quick. It's just a game, we should explore the more interesting options...

That's a big laugh, considering we are recovering from that half-to-death beating Donnie gave us.

 

[SCO]

You know what would be hilarious ? Surgically inserting a bomb in Wilkinson and making it explode as soon as she gets close to the Bishop !

Dominate is cool. What she doesn't know about she can't tell (before she dies horribly that is).


Thought that (even if it worked, which it won't) would lead to black hand assassins raining from the sky.

 

[ironyuri]

Flopping to A for the potential lulz of trolling BBC and the rest of the voters.