Decline J_C fails his Codex check...again - Betrayal at Krondor is the best RPG ever, but I'm not feeling it

[J_C]

I...I don't even know how to start this. I don't have a face for it.

So, let's start by saying that I know that Betrayal at Krondor is not shit. For many people, it is the greatest RPG ever made. But....it aged horribly, I just can't bring myself to continue after Chapter 2. Why? Because it is busywork.

1) Movement in the world is basicly works like a blobber, you move by taking steps. But it is just so tiresome to press the arrow keys repeatedly just to move forward, or turn. I know you can keep it pressed, but in that case you are moving too fast and have a big chance to run into an ambush, or miss something. So you have to smash the arrow buttons.
2) There is no journal. You know what? Some people will say it that this is great, it is so immersive that you have to make your own journal, you take notes and stuff. NO, faggot! It is not fun, it wasn't fun back in the 80s, 90s, and it is not fun now. I don't want to constantly put the game down, write something, then pick the game up. I even had an excel sheet opened, it was like work. And oh boy, this game has a lot to write. No handholding here, you are bombarded with information, names, cities, items (which is not bad if yo have a journal). And you can't be sure that what you have just heared is a quest, or just some chit-chat which has nothing to do with anything. But just in case you have to write it down. Also, everything is discribed so vaguely. I don't want to be spoonfed with these things, but at least give me a fucking journal which lists the things I need to do.
3) Combat is sorta OK, but it is very basic. Mages and archers are basicly useless, because they can't cast or shoot if there is an enemy on the adjacent grid. And since there are only 2 other guys in your party, you can rarely shield them from the enemies, who will attack you. Also, the character and skill system is not transparent at all.

2 and 3 were not big problems, but I can't say how tedious movement and exploring was with that kind of control scheme. If it had fluid movement, I would play it from start to finish.

As I said, the game aged horribly, and in the worst way possible. Not in graphics and music, which are still nice to look at and hear, but just the way the game handles and presents information to you.

I know I'm getting old, because I don't have the time and the patience to work with this game. Because the constant key mashing (for moving) and the constant note writing is work, and it sucks out the fun from the game. I struggled with the game for a while, even restarted one time, but after I took a glance on my GoG library, which has so many games that I would like to play more, I decided to give it up, and uninstall BaK.

Shamefur dispray, but that's how it is.

EDIT: So, after a little hiatus, I've started the game for the 3rd time, taking other people's advices into account. The game is not bad, I'm finally having fun with it but I still say that it is not the golden RPG everybody says it is.

EDIT2: I'm at chapter 3 and I realized that I don't enjoy the game too much. The story didn't grab me, the gameplay is decent, but that's all.

 

[Metro]

 

[Infinitron]

I don't recall actually having to remember that many things in BaK. You just wander around the world and hoover things up. There aren't a whole lot of side quests that can't be resolved locally.

 

[J_C]

I don't recall actually having to remember that many things in BaK. You just wander around the world and hoover things up. There aren't a whole lot of side quests that can't be resolved locally.

Well I have a shit memory so writing everything down is essential for me.

 

[Jaesun]

 

[NotAGolfer]

A fanboy of good games.

Yeah right ...

 

[HiddenX]

BaK is great in every respect: story, combat, quests, NPCs. Just use a notepad to take some notes and everything is fine.
BaK hasn't aged horribly. The gfx were always mediocre - even in 1993. Everything else is close to perfect.

 

[Gregz]

It's true that memory in general is a 'skill' that's degrading very quickly amongst gamers, myself included. Being 'spoiled' by journals, maps, quest logs etc. makes it very hard to go back and revisit these old games which relied heavily on the user's memory, written on graph paper or otherwise.

There were some amazingly frustrating events back in the early days of gaming.

Nothing like playing for 36 hours, and after the 24h point being too tired to save (which involved manually swapping floppies) that took quite a very long time compared to today's 3 second quicksave standards. So you didn't do it and oops, the power just went out, or oops, the computer just froze...so long last 8 hours of progress.



There's a lot less of that nowadays thanks to quicksave and autosave, but that's just one convenience of dozens we take for granted as being standard. The same is true of the many UI issues mentioned above by the OP. Going back to the old games can be harsh, but it can be rewarding too. Do what you did, try it, and if it doesn't grab you just move on.

I too failed the 'Betrayal at Krondor check', but I'm not too concerned because there isn't a single game that everyone on the Codex likes unanimously. We have a top 70 true, but I don't personally think that Alpha Protocol belongs anywhere near where it is, especially above games like Mount and Blade:Warband, but whatever. Some people here like Planescape, some don't. Same with Fallout, or Arcanum or Morrowind etc.

RPG Codex Top 70 PC RPGs

We collectively try our best to identify the true gems, but ultimately certain games just appeal to certain types of players more than others, and there's far more than one type of player on the Codex.

Just work your way down the list until you find something you like, life is too short.

 

[Infinitron]

Re: memory, I've found that the hardest thing to do is remember stuff you've left unfinished in areas that you've already explored. It's easy to set an "exploration strategy" that helps you remember where you've been and where you've yet to go, but if you left something unfinished behind, it can fall between the cracks.

 

[made]

There's no excuse for the controls. Not now, nor in '93.

 

[~*´¨¯¨`*·~-.¸-AIN'T]

I definitely can't agree that BaK "aged horribly". As someone who also hadn't played a lot of the early 90s RPGs before coming to the Codex, I found BaK to be one of the easiest RPG classics to get into, certainly much more so than many others that I've tried like Realms of Arkania, Daggerfall, Wizardry, and Darklands. Moreover, once I did get into it I was really easily hooked, and had trouble stopping.

I also rarely wrote stuff down and don't have a great memory either. The world movement never seemed like an issue. And mages most certainly are not useless.

 

[NotAGolfer]

Exactly, the story isn't that complicated, there aren't that many sidequests so writing stuff down is only necessary if you tend to take long breaks in between.
And mages are fucking boss in this game.

Anyway, what's up with all the "Codex favorite XY is overrated" threads recently?

 

[SCO]

Busywork ahaha, go play realms of arkania


ban J_C

 

[Greatness]

Yeah, I think you took the wrong approach. You don't need to complete every little side-quest/whatever. I got by fine without taking any notes at all and I have an awful memory. Just enjoy the writing/setting and don't try to be a completionist. Even if you do do everything there is in the game it just ends up breaking progression and combat becomes a joke, so it's really not worth it.

 

[SausageInYourFace]

Oh, a new BaK thread just at the right time. Let me just ask this question real quick: How the hell can I kill Black Slayers (the guys that constantly re-animate) ? Is there a conventional means of killing these fuckers dead?

So far I am somewhat underwhelmed too, so I feel ya J_C . But it is too soon to give a final verdict already for me.

The movement is kinda bothering me too, particular in dungeons. I think the game might have been better as tile-based blobber, or at least switching to tile-based in dungeons. I don't really know how it is supposed to benefit from free form movement. I am also not really big on taking notes either, it is tedious. I am not sure about the combat yet, it is getting more fun I think but what bothers me is that I often get the feeling that a lot of the difficulty stems from randomness in battles. What I really like so far is the writing and how every detail, every item is described in an evokative way, it gives the game a lot of atmosphere. Strangely enough, I really enjoy the graphics too. I always thought the real-life actors looked extremely silly on pictures.. well maybe objectively they do. But when I actually started playing I really started to appreciate it, I think its kinda charming in a b-movie sort of way (Jimmy the Hand looks so clueless - even though he is supposed to be pretty smart? - it always makes me smile). I also like the pretty interiors of taverns and such. The music is pretty good and catchy too. Can't say much about the story yet.

One thing that kinda blew my mind a bit was when I stumbled upon (minor spoiler incoming) a Dragon that started talking to Owyn and gave me several hints how to solve certain sidequests and foreshadowed important story events. That was really cool.

Edit: J_C, one thing you may want to do to make movement a bit better is switch the controls from the arrows to WASD movement, its pretty easy to do in DosBox.

 

[Siveon]

Oh, a new BaK thread just at the right time. Let me just ask this question real quick: How the hell can I kill Black Slayers (the guys that constantly re-animate) ? Is there a conventional means of killing these fuckers dead?

I remember those things, I think you needed a certain spell to kill them. I finished it last summer, so I wouldn't be able to tell you which one.

On Topic:

J_C is a wuss. I completed this game just fine without the use of written journals (besides for riddle chests, but that was for me not the game) and had a grand 'ol time doing it. The only thing that I felt was underwhelming was the actual 'Betrayal' since it wasn't surprising* and the story sort of ended. I wish it was longer, since it felt kind of short for a CRPG oddly enough. Oh and the graphics were a little hard on the eyes, made exploration a bit of a chore. The gameplay was top-notch though and the itemization was excellent, for the fact that I had to actually use items sometimes.

Also: Mages are useless? The fuck. Freaking blinding a guy was one of the best things you could do early-game. I'll give it to you that ranged is a bit hit-or-miss, but magic killed like 66% of my enemies during my entire playthrough.

I think the game is great, well-polished and holds up still today.

*

Spoiler

Still not sure what the actual betrayal was. It was that wizard guy right? I'm always hazy on actual details.

 

[NotAGolfer]

1) Movement ... I know you can keep it pressed, but in that case you are moving too fast and have a big chance to run into an ambush, or miss something. So you have to smash the arrow buttons.

Under preferences reduce the step size to medium.
You're welcome, faggit.

 

[SCO]

BAK had one of the best control schemes ever in a open world game without auto teleport. I speak of course of that button to 'lock into' a road that is selectable when you're over one, you can just press forward until next branch if you're not exploring. Better yet is using the temples, but you're obviously too casual for that.

 

[Cowboy Moment]

I dunno, I think I was about 9 when I first played BaK, I learned most of my English from watching undubbed Cartoon Network, and I completed the game without taking any notes (the idea didn't even occur to the prepubescent me). I also remember being impressed by the cleverness of the "fast travel" system in the game.

But if it's too hardcore for you Matt, then I guess nothing can be done.

 

[Gregz]

I dunno, I think I was about 9 when I first played BaK, I learned most of my English from watching undubbed Cartoon Network, and I completed the game without taking any notes (the idea didn't even occur to the prepubescent me). I also remember being impressed by the cleverness of the "fast travel" system in the game.

But if it's too hardcore for you Matt, then I guess nothing can be done.

Here cum those olde tyme 'git gud scrub' borefists.

 

[Average Manatee]

BaK is amazing. One of the oldest RPGs I can recommend as 100% accessible, playable, and fun even for modern pussies (which I do consider myself one of, at times). Apparently not J_C though.

1) Movement in the world is basicly works like a blobber, you move by taking steps. But it is just so tiresome to press the arrow keys repeatedly just to move forward, or turn. I know you can keep it pressed, but in that case you are moving too fast and have a big chance to run into an ambush, or miss something. So you have to smash the arrow buttons.

You can increase or decrease step size in preferences. If you are on slow step size and its too fast for you then you must have dosbox screwed up or something.

2) There is no journal. You know what? Some people will say it that this is great, it is so immersive that you have to make your own journal, you take notes and stuff. NO, faggot! It is not fun, it wasn't fun back in the 80s, 90s, and it is not fun now. I don't want to constantly put the game down, write something, then pick the game up. I even had an excel sheet opened, it was like work. And oh boy, this game has a lot to write. No handholding here, you are bombarded with information, names, cities, items (which is not bad if yo have a journal). And you can't be sure that what you have just heared is a quest, or just some chit-chat which has nothing to do with anything. But just in case you have to write it down. Also, everything is discribed so vaguely. I don't want to be spoonfed with these things, but at least give me a fucking journal which lists the things I need to do.

90% of the time there's only one quest at a time in an area. It's not like you're going into a generic RPG bar and picking up 20 quests at a time. And once you've cleared an area there are no respawns, you can easily run around and check for anything you missed or forgot.

The only thing you need to do is the main quest. The game reminds you of what that is.

3) Combat is sorta OK, but it is very basic. Mages and archers are basicly useless, because they can't cast or shoot if there is an enemy on the adjacent grid. And since there are only 2 other guys in your party, you can rarely shield them from the enemies, who will attack you. Also, the character and skill system is not transparent at all.

Mages have really OP spells. Despair Thy Eyes at the beginning pretty much wins all battles so long as your aren't ambushed. Archers are nice since (IIRC) shots only miss based on your accuracy, stronger enemies can't use their defense to block. In case you didn't know: click on enemies before an ambush to notice and prepare for them.

Skill system should be pretty dead-simple obvious since it's train by use. The skill focus thing is kind of silly nonsense which annoys my autism to not switch every 5s to maximize XP gain, but meh.

 

[taxalot]

It's true that memory in general is a 'skill' that's degrading very quickly amongst gamers, myself included. Being 'spoiled' by journals, maps, quest logs etc. makes it very hard to go back and revisit these old games which relied heavily on the user's memory, written on graph paper or otherwise.
.

I have the same issue and a different explanation.

Back in the past, when I was a kid, I did not have to have much on my mind. School was easy. Just wake up in the morning, go there, sit here doing nothing for five hours, go back home and play some computer game.
As an adult, I have a thousand of things in my mind everyday. Things not to forget about, things to care for. I still find time for gaming but it's now very hard before I load my savegame to remember what I was doing and my next course of action. Depending on the game, I might spend a few minutes wandering around wondering about what I'm supposed to do. I'm going through Assassin's Creed 2 these days, and let's just say I'm clearly assassinating those dudes, but a fair number of times I have no idea why.

A "last time, on....." feature when you load a savegame, summing up what you did on your previous session would be awesome to me, and, I believe, would not hinder gameplay in anyway. Otherwise, it's almost as if I'll find the need to take notes in games that aren't supposed to require notes.

 

[Excommunicator]

You might find this article interesting

Scientific study shows internet use changes human memory
by Chris Rawson @@rawsoncj | Jul 18th 2011 at 7:00AM


The internet has fundamentally affected the way people access and store information, and many people (myself included) have wondered if it's also changing the way our minds work. According to the New York Times, a recently published scientific paper shows that we are indeed changing the way we store information in our brains thanks to the internet.

The paper's title, "Google Effects on Memory: Cognitive Consequences of Having Information at Our Fingertips" sounds faintly ominous, and the study results do show that people are less likely to retain information if they believe they'll simply be able to Google it later. According to the study's abstract, "When people expect to have future access to information, they have lower rates of recall of the information itself and enhanced recall instead for where to access it."

Article: http://www.tuaw.com/2011/07/18/scientific-study-shows-internet-use-changes-human-memory/
Study: http://www.sciencemag.org/content/333/6043/776.abstract#aff-2

 

[ghostdog]

Reading this thread I realized how much I declined in terms of playing games. When I was younger, I played only good games. Seriously, if you had looked my game library's quality 10-12 years ago the average score would have been 90%. And I finished almost every one of them. Now, I can barely finish an average action game. Sure this has a lot to do with having a job and a girlfriend who I live with, and as a second job, playing shit games as a reviewer (I refuse to call myself a journalist). But every day I have a 1-2 hours free time, and what do I do? Surfing the net watching banal shit boring sites (including the Codex), wasting my time. And meanwhile my Steam and GOG account is choke full of amazing classics I never played or should be replayed. And I want to play them, i just can't bring myself to it.

Does anyone know what's wrong with me?

 

[J_C]

I too failed the 'Betrayal at Krondor check', but I'm not too concerned because there isn't a single game that everyone on the Codex likes unanimously. We have a top 70 true, but I don't personally think that Alpha Protocol belongs anywhere near where it is, especially above games like Mount and Blade:Warband, but whatever. Some people here like Planescape, some don't. Same with Fallout, or Arcanum or Morrowind etc.

RPG Codex Top 70 PC RPGs

We collectively try our best to identify the true gems, but ultimately certain games just appeal to certain types of players more than others, and there's far more than one type of player on the Codex.

Yeah, I always feel a little bad when I can't get into a golden classic. Because I read that it is awesome on several levels, yet I can't enjoy it. And I fear that I'm missing out on something. But I have to tell myself, that this is only a videogame, nothing will happen if I won't play every goddamned one of them.

That said, maybe I should give BaK one more time, just take a different approach.

Even if you do do everything there is in the game it just ends up breaking progression and combat becomes a joke, so it's really not worth it.

See, I see it in another way. I want to do everything to have a stronger party, because as I experienced, you can get into pretty tough fights. Like, unbeatable ones. On my first playthrough, I went straight to Krondor. Not rushing there, I stopped at every town during the road and explored, but I was not doing huge detours. And after being to Krondor, going to Romney, I met 5 assassins which kicked my ass. I could kill them but 2 of my guys were KOd, and since I wasn't swimming in money and couldn't use a temple cure. So I had to reload. I tend to do every quest in games, just because I fear that if i don't I will have a frustrating time with the more difficult battles. But checking the Codex LP, the guy there didn't go to Krondor at all, first he explored the northern part of the kingdom.

Under preferences reduce the step size to medium.
You're welcome, faggit.

Wow, I wouldn't have figured that out by myself. Except that it doesn't solve my problem. It is not that I'm travelling in huge or small steps, it is that you repeatedly have to press the buttons to move or turn.

I speak of course of that button to 'lock into' a road that is selectable when you're over one, you can just press forward until next branch if you're not exploring. Better yet is using the temples, but you're obviously too casual for that.

I rarely use that button because I may miss stuff which are beside the road. And I'm too much of a jew to use temple yet because they cost too much. What if I spend all my money and I will need that cash later?

If you are on slow step size and its too fast for you then you must have dosbox screwed up or something.

How so? I'm a noob at Dosbox, so I just left everything of the default after the GOG install.

Edit: J_C, one thing you may want to do to make movement a bit better is switch the controls from the arrows to WASD movement, its pretty easy to do in DosBox.

I tried that but It didn'T work. I'm new to dosbox, so I might mess something up.